Sitiveni Sivivatu classic try - Lions tour of NZ 2005

Very exciting stuff, great to see.

Forward pass!

Grrrr as soon as I saw this I knew there would be at least one mug who shouts forward. It's passed flat, but momentum takes it forward. When we people learn that rule?? It's about the ball coming out the hands, not where it ends up. The pass was good. Great try.

Too bad Sivivatu had to make a complete muppet out of himself by dropping the ball on Shane Williams' head... that took the gloss off completely...Still a great try, and a wonderful pass from Umaga.

Sharky, would you say the same about the french try in the world cup?That is such a great try. It was an awesome pass and it's tough calling those ones as like sharky said alot of it is momentum. Lovely bounce from the 12 who to be fair should have been tackled, terrible defending. and then you just can't stop them when they're running at you like that. And i'm an england fan

This video offers a great insight on the forward pass... enjoy:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgMlDy2jP9s

View Video

jones got knocked on his arse!lovely try, from start (no8 helping the scrumhalf under pressure) to finish

Sharky, that video posted below defeats your argument entirely. It shows that, even if the pass travels forward because of momentum, but the receiver is still behind the passer, it's not forward. Sivivatu, however, was in front of Umanga when he passed it, and in front of him when he caught it. Bad luck. Doesn't matter though, as in the long run it would only have been a forward pass if the ref had called it.

the pass by Umaga is unbelievable!

WHAAAT? lolSivivatu was in front of Umaga when he passed it?? Funny, I didnt see that. Pausing it at 15 seconds didnt help either...

Another classic All Black try.Some people just start saying forward pass when they no nothing about momentum.Before anyone else blurts out "forward pass" watch this videoAnd peej what are you on about "Sivivatu, however, was in front of Umanga when he passed it, and in front of him when he caught it."Maybe your eyes aren't quick enough for video so here's a screenshot

View Video

Sivivatu miles behind Umaga + Umaga passing backward = Legitimate Pass

Stan, you're absolutely right. For anyone who can't be bothered to watch the video, basically it points out that pretty much every pass in rugby goes forward, because the passer is running forward and one would have to stop completely to enable the ball to actually go backwards.The result is that a pass can only be called forward if the ball goes forward in relation to the man who passes it. By very definition if the ball goes in front of the man passing, it cannot be momentum that carries it forward as the ball's momentum can only be as great as that of the passer. In other words one cannot rule a forward pass based upon the passage of the ball alone. One also has to bring to bear where the passer and catcher are and whether the ball travels in a straight line between them. If the catcher is behind the passer when the ball is passed and the ball travels in a straight line between them then it is not a forward pass.Anyway, the long and the short of it is that Umaga's pass was not forward. It was bloody brilliant and a great try, even if I am a Lions' supporter.

Stan & Will66 - love your work ;)

I do wish this match was available to watch

Let me explain this very simply, without commenting (yet) on whether or not the pass in the video was forward.From Law 12:DEFINITION - THROW FORWARDA throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ballforward. Forward means towards the opposing teams dead ball line.As you can see, there is NOTHING in the law book about momentum. That video is wrong at 4:56 when it says that the referee must "judge a forward pass purely on the passing action of the passer" - again, read the law definition above. Perhaps the laws were different when that video was made? The video looks pretty old.Now, regarding this particular occasion: it appears to me that Umaga released the ball about 5m inside the Lions 10-meter line, and Sivivatu caught it about 10m inside that same 10-meter line. By definition, that means the ball traveled towards the opposing team's deal ball line, which means that yes, this was a forward pass - in terms of the law. The overhead replay angle shows it best.Since the referee didn't call it, however, play goes on.CacetudoThe Daily Hype | Rugby

that came from the 10 getting put on his arse.stephen jones was it?

Was Luke Mcallister the number 12? if not who was??

i had my doubts about Sivivatu initially... they went a long time ago

The reason that Stephen Jones missed that tackle was because it was completely on Mauger's terms. So I criticize Jones for not getting the tackle on his terms, not for failing to complete that tackle properly.Someone mind clearly something up for me, how do you pronounce Umaga?-Dune

Hey Z Cacetudo,You said;"A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ballforward. Forward means towards the opposing teams dead ball line."Umaga clearly throws the ball backwards. If it was the case that a pass has to be caught behind the spot it was thrown from then every freaking pass would be forward when you're running at speed.Think about it. If you jump out of the back of a speeding car you clearly wouldn't land at the spot you left the car. You'd land a few meters ahead of that spot because you're traveling at the same speed as the car.The same applies here. You're the rugby ball and the car is the running player.Umaga threw the ball backwards but because he and the ball were both going at the same speed the ball reaches Sivivatu a few meters ahead of where it left Umaga's hands. But because Umaga was stopped it looked as though the ball was thrown forward. If Umaga had continued running he'd still be ahead of Sivivatu and the ballIt's simple physics man.

hey cacetudo!any shadow of a doubt was cleared up by the video that sander and stan posted. if you didn't watch the video i suggest you do. if you did, then maybe you need to see your doctor and get your head checked. stop reading rule books and start playing more. maybe you'll understand why its not a forward pass

@DuneUmanga is pronounced ooh-mung-ah.

umaga forward pass to the fijian bloke on the wing

forward when a frenchman makes the pass, "flat" when a nz'er makes the pass

lol

@common sense!!:First, I didn't say it... the law book says it. Just so we're clear.Second, from what I can see in this video, the ball was passed forward - towards the opposing teams dead ball line. Have a look at the overhead replay, and check for 2 things: where Umaga was when he released the ball, and where Sivivatu was when he caught it. In my view it's clear that this was a forward pass.Third, I understand the physics perfectly. I actually studied this sort of thing in University as well. It's perfectly possible to be running forward at full speed and still throw the ball backwards - i.e., towards one's own goal line. It's also perfectly possible to jump out of the back of a moving car (to use your example) and land at a spot behind the point from which you jumped - you would just have to jump backwards at a velocity greater than the forward velocity of the car.Fourth, I also understand the illusion/lack thereof at work here. Illusion or not, Sivivatu catches the ball further towards the opposing team's dead ball line than the point at which it was released by Umaga (see my second point just above).@islestyle:I watched that Aussie refereeing video linked above in its entirety. As I mentioned in my first post, it appears to be quite old, and perhaps the laws were different when it was made. Did you actually read my first post? Did you notice that I quoted the narrator at 4:56? Do you think I made that up from whole cloth?I will ignore your personal attacks, except to say that I referee regularly, and still play occasionally.-----Again, please refer to law #12 - there is NOTHING about momentum in there, or about a player throwing the ball backwards relative to his forward motion.Let me add one more thing: I'm a neutral observer, neither Lions nor All Blacks supporter.CacetudoThe Daily Hype | Rugby

Umaga shouldn't have been playing, he speared BoD. BoD coulda died

I agree with all the Kiwis saying it wasn't a forward pass.I also agreed with Wayne Barnes last year when NZ went out in the Quarter finals to France who were then beaten by England

Z Cacetudo, "Sivivatu catches the ball further towards the opposing team's dead ball line than the point at which it was released by Umaga". This seems to be the main point which you base your argument on and if, as you suggest, the interpretation of the law has changed since the Australian video was made, do you now say that every time the ball is caught even slightly ahead of the point it was released by the passer, it constitutes a forward pass?. If so then the game (and probably every single game) as it is currently refereed is a sham. Is that also your position? Nothing personal here, Z Cacetudo, just curious.

if you see the direction of the ball, you would notice that it's a spiral pass to a backward direction, if you try to pass the ball forward with it pointing backward, you would find it to wobble in mid-air and would not go very far.just give it a try and you will see.also just to clear up the french pass situation. the passer was already stopped the moment before he passed the ball, therefore the momentum does not come into account, and it's just offloading into foward direction.

jones is crap he cant tackle

That pass made that Try happen forget the winger I could do that after that great pass.

forward passes make awesome tries!

Unfair series, Lions has 2 islands to pick from, New Zealand had 13-14 islands to pick from. ;)

Bravo, Mr Anonymous, your assertion that 'northern hemisphere is shit' is clearly a well-thought out and intelligent philosophy. That you managed to drag your knuckles off the floor to type at all is a miracle.Back to the debate, irrespective of what the law says, this is not a forward pass. There are many things in the laws that if you stuck to them rigidly would ruin every game of rugby. The letter of the law at rucking for example would result in a penalty at every break down. When was the last time you saw a ruck where everyone was on their feet?The same thing applies to forward passes. The law exists to stop players passing to team mates who are in front of them. In the case the receiving player was at no stage in front of the passer, therefore play continued. If refs were so pedantic to stick to the very letter of the law, this would be a terrible game. I know because I regularly referee rugby games.

will66 .. agreed on all points including the first, why these idiots even bother to post is a mystery. But I would go further and say that the pass in question is not even stretching the current (and sensible) interpretation but falls well within it.

Why does a great debate with good arguments and evidence from both sides, have to be interrupted by frekin' idiots who post as anonymous??!? It wouldn't bother me so much if the comments had some semblance of wit or intelligence....

I'm a little sad that this great try is overshadowed by discussions about the pass tbh.I dont want to get technical at all, but do think maybe we're over analysing thing a tad. It was an OUTSTANDING pass, whether it drifted forward slightly or not, or even if by the letter of the law it was forward (which I still disagree with), it was an incredible pass and should be remembered for that. It's hardly WC Quarter final material.My two cents anyway. Great try.

I have been a fan of this try since that pass was thrown. Very good stuff and great set-play. Again: flat, pass and momentum took it forward, learn that rule!All Blacks rule!

As a big o'Driscoll fan its hard to say this but that was a wonderful try and a fantastic pass.Also to Sander: wasn't it Rokocoko with the very unclassy touch of banging the ball off Williams ? Apologies if i'm wrong

Quality try and quality pass. Pause the video at 11 seconds as Mauger releases the offload to Umaga after breaking through. He releases it what appears to be JUST before the broken line on the field. Pause a moment later when Umaga catches the pass and look at where he is in relation to the broken line: on it or in front of it. I don't see anyone complaining about that pass being forward (because it obviously wasn't), nor was the one to Sivivatu.

@robert:As far as the law is concerned, yes, any pass that is caught further "up" the field that the point from which it was released is considered to be a forward pass.However, in the interests of continuity, the referee should not be a sheriff/pedant and blow the whistle for every possible action that could be deemed an infringement. A little bit of latitude is appropriate, and the materiality of the action in question should be considered.Based on the 5m (in my estimation) difference in upfield position, and the winger being put into space, at speed and within the opposing team's half, I would argue that the attacking team gained a material advantage from the forward pass. In this case, I would blow the whistle.@will66:First, please see the points above. Several of them would apply to your comment.Second, if we're agreed that the ball was received further upfield than the point from which it was passed, then according to law this is indeed a forward pass.Third, I totally agree with your point that the referee should not interpret the lawbook strictly. Doing so would result in a match that would be no fun to play and less to watch.Fourth, while the receiver wasn't in front of the passer when the pass was initiated, he certainly was in front of that same point when he caught the pass. As I've already shown, there's no mention of momentum (or any similar word/concept) anywhere in Law 12. Here's the link to the Law 12 PDF at the IRB site.Fifth, if you look at the positioning of the referee at the time of the pass, he was trailing play and on the right side of the passer, who passed left. I know from experience (and you probably do too since you ref) that this is one of the most difficult angles from which to judge whether or not a pass went forward. I'm not criticizing Mr. Jutge - we of course have the benefit of hindsight. Keep in mind that he may not have been able to tell whether or not it was forward, in which case he did the absolutely correct thing in playing on.-----Having said all of that... yes, this was a great demonstration of skill all around - especially the finishing by Sivivatu - and entertaining to watch.CacetudoThe Daily Hype | Rugby

cacetudo," you would just have to jump backwards at a velocity greater than the forward velocity of the car."so according to your thinking, a player has to throw the ball backwards at a velocity greater than himself to offset the forward momentum of the ball? all this while running full stride?hmmmm thats amazing

cacetudo," you would just have to jump backwards at a velocity greater than the forward velocity of the car."so according to your thinking, a player has to throw the ball backwards at a velocity greater than himself to offset the forward momentum of the ball? all this while running full stride?hmmmm thats amazing

Z Cacetudo, thanks for your reply. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this. As far as law 12 goes .. I don't accept that those words (no matter how often you repeat them) intended that throwing the ball sideways as you move ahead equates with throwing it towards the dead ball line, but that's what you're saying because that forward drift is inevitable. Your interpretation of the law is obviously different to that of the referees currently employed in international and other matches. And thank goodness for that. I believe that the ref and touch judge in this case did not call it forward for the same reason they didn't on many other similar passes shown on this site .. because they do not consider them to be forward. Either they are correct in this, which I believe, or they agree with your interpretation but are chronically unable to make the "correct" call time after time no matter how well positioned they are. I tend to support the IRB referees on this one.

its about 2 metres forward, kiwis have been getting away with it for years

anonymous who said its about 2 metres forward, kiwis have been getting away with it for yearstest referees must all be so stupid then you don't know the laws so don't waste our time

Cheesekiwi:"Again: flat, pass and momentum took it forward, learn that rule!"Is there a rule that says anything about momentum?I can't find one.I know that's true for touch rugby, and was impressed with the Aussie video link.But I can't find anything to suggest that the video explaining momentum taking the ball forward to be with in the laws of the game.

the umaga pass is probably the best pass i've ever seen in world rugby. to throw that whilst running at full pace is incredible

i have to bring the argument away from the pass because no one will agree, but i have to say Sivivatu is one bloody great finisher to actually go as close to the posts instead of just going wide, and Aaron Mauger bust up the middle should of then been rapped up by the number seven

I love Southern Hemisphere rugby, the stupid backwards pass rule we have up here in the North really slows the game down.

I love this try!everything pure class start to finishi love watching this try over and over just breathtakingne1 who say forward pass, you dont know dick

how many more retards are going to say that pass was forward? Geez those retards dont know shit about rugbyIf the player threw it backward, and the momentum of the player running forward sent the ball forward, that is legitimate and NOT a forward pass.A forward pass is when a player deliberately sends the pass aimed toward the opp's goal line.just watch the video thats been posted so many times

I hate dumb clueless faggots like Z Cacetudo who the fuck u think u are trying to apply ur knowledge (or lack of it) to us?GET A CLUEdumb cunts like Cacetudo really piss me offand WTF is up w/ ur name u some kind of brazillian? what do a bunch of football players know about rugby

I support the lions whenever they play but that was some amazing rugby..... not forward and such a good pass and run.

i could watch that try all day

I am a referee, I am a player, I also studied applied maths at university, so I think I'm pretty qualified for this debate. There is NO law relating to momentum, and the pass is unequivocally forward according to the law. the reason these sort of passes are often got away with, is that it is very difficult for the referee/line judges to tell when they are running at similar speeds towards the same line. That being said, the try was wonderful, and it would have been a shame for it to be disallowed, I am a lions fan, and I have no qualms with the score.Nick

I am a referee, I am a player, I also studied applied maths at university, so I think I'm pretty qualified for this debate. There is NO law relating to momentum, and the pass is unequivocally forward according to the law. the reason these sort of passes are often got away with, is that it is very difficult for the referee/line judges to tell when they are running at similar speeds towards the same line. That being said, the try was wonderful, and it would have been a shame for it to be disallowed, I am a lions fan, and I have no qualms with the score.Nick

qualm? unequivocal? Speak english fucker we dont care you know how to use your thesaurus you're commenting on a fuckin rugby video not writing some kind of essay lolObviously ur not a referree cuz u know shit about rugbyHave you ever even read the rulebook for rugby?And to every1 who thinks its a forward pass: STFU! We all know that some retards think its a forward pass, you dont need to count yourself in. Theres nothing you can do about the forward pass, it was 3 years ago and its already been awarded.

damnnn the geeks leaving comments with their pocket calculators & dictionaries etc, really sucked the life out of this vid

If you lions fan want to say its a forward pass, kiwi fans can say at the beginning of the vid Stephen Jones was offside and a late tackle on Tana UmagaJones was in front of the last mans foot in the scrum and Tana Umaga was tackled way after he'd passed the ball

Who gives a flying fuck if it was forward or notgreat try and great passim english before u say im biased

fantastic try my personal favorite

that lions' 14 shouldve stopped sivivatu

Maybe if Wilkinson was at 10 then maybe Mauger would never had gotten through in the first place?Who knows lol

My Favourite Try got to be

ha ha ha... just read this. momentum is a rugby league law you idiots... doesn't exist in union!! But so many people jump on the band wagon because they think it makes them sound more knowledgeable about rugby... Quite frankly couldn't give a flying fuck if the pass was forwards or not, but funny anyway.N

still looks like a forward pass to me!!!

probably the best try in rugby history that pass was unreal

The change of pace from Umaga is incredible, no one gets close to him. The vision to pick out Sivivatu was the hall mark of a true ledgend. It wasnt forward, as you can see the ball leaves the hand as a flat pass, the wind takes it forward, that means it's NOT a forward pass. Great step and finish too.

Wow, the amazing defence of the NH.
Such good tackling, I can really see why NH supporters critisize the S14's defence with tackling like this.

Jones missing a tackle?! Never!! So it looks like the Lions will have their hands full this year with him and O'Gara having to contain three massive angry Bokke loosies (oh and Bakkies...) 3-0 to the Bokke!!!

It does actually look a little bit forward, but like I care, great try!

surely the best pass ever in the history of rugby union? shame about the fact he shouldn't of been on the pitch

but yh if jones is shit again like he was 4 years ago aren't we kinda fucked? o gara isnt rele renowned for tackling is he. worsley at flyhalf i say!

Sorry to be anonyous
Frank

Well what can I say?

Great bust up the middle by Mauger (poor tackle by Jones)

Great support line by Umaga and great off-load

Great acceleration by Umaga to exploit the break.

Great vision to see Sivivatu.

Great step and finish.

Still a forward pass. You guys keep going on about this momentum thing and frankly it's all rubbish. I've watched the 80s Aussie video, I've heard the argument. The fact remains, if the ball travels in the air towards the opposition dead ball line, it's a forward pass. It makes it extremely hard to pass backwards at speed but therein lies half of the skill.

I don't want to sound sour, the All Blacks were as good a side in 2005 as I can remember and the Lions were half-cooked. The scorelines didn't flatter the ABs. Still, the pass went forward.

Steve, England

if we're debating over the forward pass, clearly that argument itself means nothing. umaga (and mealamu [sorry about spelling])shouldn't have even been on the pitch at this point.

My favourite rugby union try of all time. Unfortunately it looks like the video has been taken down.