Tuesday, July 13, 2010
Classic Kapo O Pango Haka against the Springboks at Eden Park
Opinions have always varied about the relevance of the pre-match wardance in this day and age. Many say its outdated, while others say it gives them an unfair advantage and shouldnt be allowed. I happen to think the opposite, and know that some of the best players in world have welcomed the challenge, sometimes thriving in standing up to it.
It seems strange to talk about good Hakas and bad Hakas, but the reality is that there have been times when it has come across routine and lacklustre. Its certainly come a long way since its early days - as you can watch in the History of Rugby series here on RD - but on Saturday there seemed to be something special about it.
Piri Weepu, despite playing off the bench, has become a worthy leader of the Haka after they had toyed with Richie McCaw leading it last year. McCaw himself has said that some of them get together and choose which Haka theyll perform at random during the week leading up to a Test.
There seems to be more to it than that though, and Im sure it was no coincidence that their second Haka, to many a more fearsome sight than the Ka Mate, was pulled out for the big clash at the start of the Tri Nations. There was a definite edge to it.
Whatever the case, it was fantastic to watch, and has been requested so here it is for you to watch and decide for yourself if its one of the better ones youve seen, or not.
Posted at 6:47 pm | 80 comments
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Viewing 80 comments
Anonymous July 13, 2010 8:07 pm
dont they ever grow tired of dancing before the game
Scotsdale July 13, 2010 8:10 pm
They do stop yanno. It's not like Le Mans.
Good one, thanks!
Good one, thanks!
Jimbo July 13, 2010 8:35 pm
Absolutely fantastic to watch! As an Englishman I'd love to see it live. Don't think it benefits either side as facing it would make you want to smash them even more to prove a point :) Great entertainment and should always be a part of the sport.
Anonymous July 13, 2010 8:51 pm
If I was Richie McCaw I would definitely be getting biggest and ugliest up front and having them eyeball guys like Hodgson or Ogara just to see them shit themselves earlier than the usual meltdown. Harder against Boks though.
Anonymous July 13, 2010 9:02 pm
When will they finish with this ridiculous and base tradition. Rugby is a gentleman's sport not an act of warfare. We should never have taught them to play.
Anonymous July 13, 2010 9:04 pm
What's with the open side of the stadium? Could they not sell seats to this game?
They're increasing the capacity for the world cup i believe, and that part is under construction..
They're increasing the capacity for the world cup i believe, and that part is under construction..
Anonymous July 13, 2010 9:14 pm
Piri Weepu is one passionate customer. Great stuff.
Anonymous July 13, 2010 9:44 pm
goodie out of the blue today!
the beardy robot could have been a socks and sandals wearing one
good to see it was a goodie.
the beardy robot could have been a socks and sandals wearing one
good to see it was a goodie.
MonkeyOnKeyboard July 13, 2010 9:59 pm
With all the test matches nowdays the Haka it getting pretty lame to watch. I'm so over it.
Jacko July 13, 2010 10:34 pm
If you dont like it, dont watch it. You moaners!!
Bokke_2007 July 13, 2010 10:42 pm
Ah the old humpty dumpty dance. Always good for a laugh!
Jono July 13, 2010 11:19 pm
The haka is awesome.
People who whigne about it are a joke. It's been around longer than these whingers have been alive and will be around long after they're dead.
It's one of rugby's great traditions and a part of it's history.
And while the English invented rugby, it was the Kiwis who taught everyone how to play it properly.
People who whigne about it are a joke. It's been around longer than these whingers have been alive and will be around long after they're dead.
It's one of rugby's great traditions and a part of it's history.
And while the English invented rugby, it was the Kiwis who taught everyone how to play it properly.
Mart July 13, 2010 11:19 pm
When do they find the time to practice that shit??
is it done in a little rehearsal studio?
I've had my dig, that said...still impressive!!
is it done in a little rehearsal studio?
I've had my dig, that said...still impressive!!
Anonymous July 14, 2010 1:26 am
I don't care what anyone thinks, the HAKA is a massive advantage going into a match, adrenaline raises everything in your body to maximum levels. Strength, speed, senses you name it, not to mention the physocological advantage they get from it, it should be banned.
Anonymous July 14, 2010 1:32 am
Any time I see the ABs doing the HAKA I can't get the image of them rehearsing it out of my head.
"No, no, no it's two chest slaps, little squat, and THEN leg slaps"
"Ritchie your all out of rythim, and Dan TRY to keep up this time all right boys one more time, but this time with FEELING."
"No, no, no it's two chest slaps, little squat, and THEN leg slaps"
"Ritchie your all out of rythim, and Dan TRY to keep up this time all right boys one more time, but this time with FEELING."
Anonymous July 14, 2010 1:36 am
Bakkies at 1:43
"Hmm, lets see, who am I going to headbutt."
"Hmm, lets see, who am I going to headbutt."
Anonymous July 14, 2010 2:44 am
@ Cock_2007 (Bokke_2007), whos been doing the laughing this week? Definitely not your little bok women... They have been feeling "a bit emotional" after the loss according the Juan De Villiers.
That's just the begging sweetheart... I cant wait to see the Bok come last this tri-nations, it will be hilarious!!
New laws = Goodnight bokkles
That's just the begging sweetheart... I cant wait to see the Bok come last this tri-nations, it will be hilarious!!
New laws = Goodnight bokkles
Anonymous July 14, 2010 2:49 am
Awesome Haka, maybe the Bok should create a tribal dance.... That would be good for a giggle, bring the spears and tribal skirts out ladies!!
Anonymous July 14, 2010 3:00 am
Well said jono. The Haka is awesome and the pacific island hakas are aswell.
Bokke_2007 July 14, 2010 3:40 am
I wish my little bok men would actually stand up to the Haka, I thought Bakkies was going to make a poo in his pants lol!
poitier July 14, 2010 3:45 am
All the people asking when the haka will stop being performed...if you've watched the History of Rugby videos up on the site, the tradition has been around over 100 years in rugby; I don't think it's going anywhere. It has also gotten much more entertaining than the reluctant-looking players gesturing it in the 70's and before, but I doubt there will ever be a better haka than one led by Tana Umaga...
I thought this Kapo o Pango was a bit boring, but who cares - if that's my attitude, then it's not performed for me. It's done for the players and the people who are interested in seeing it.
I like it when the haka gets challenged, but that doesn't mean I think it should be done away with.
I thought this Kapo o Pango was a bit boring, but who cares - if that's my attitude, then it's not performed for me. It's done for the players and the people who are interested in seeing it.
I like it when the haka gets challenged, but that doesn't mean I think it should be done away with.
Tommy July 14, 2010 4:09 am
Ref, did it not strike you as funny that that part of the stadium is completely utterly empty, while every other part of the stadium is packed to the rafters?
The stadium is undergoing renovations for the upcoming world cup. That part of the stadium is not in use at the moment while it's reconstructed.
The stadium is undergoing renovations for the upcoming world cup. That part of the stadium is not in use at the moment while it's reconstructed.
Tommy July 14, 2010 4:18 am
Oh and in regards to the argument that the haka is an advantage, that's such a crock of shit.
It's usually someone from Britain or rieland complaining, and it ahs everything to do witht he fact that NZ regularly beat them, and nothing to do with the actual advantage (pretty close to sweet fuck all from a scientific perspective) provided to them.
As evidence, notice that they never complain when the Tongans, Samoans or Fijians do their triabl dance before a match.
These moaners are also usually exponents of one or more of these gems:
- SH teams have terrible defence at S14 level (which mysteriously improves at national level or any time SH teams play northern hemisphere teams, for unexplained reasons)
- The Lions should have won in South Africa, and were the better team (despite losing, conventionally seen as an indicator of which team has preformed better)
- O'Gara is a fantastic fly half
- The Heineken Cup is "more intense" or has "better atmosphere" than the S14 (just try not to focus on the low skill levels or lack of ambition)
- Any rule changed proposed by the IRB or any reffing directive from the IRB is in actual fact a conspiracy concoted by the dastardly (and amazingly influential apparently) Australians to change the game to rugby league (for completely unexplained reasons) supported by the Kiwis and Saffers (also for unexplained reasons)
It's usually someone from Britain or rieland complaining, and it ahs everything to do witht he fact that NZ regularly beat them, and nothing to do with the actual advantage (pretty close to sweet fuck all from a scientific perspective) provided to them.
As evidence, notice that they never complain when the Tongans, Samoans or Fijians do their triabl dance before a match.
These moaners are also usually exponents of one or more of these gems:
- SH teams have terrible defence at S14 level (which mysteriously improves at national level or any time SH teams play northern hemisphere teams, for unexplained reasons)
- The Lions should have won in South Africa, and were the better team (despite losing, conventionally seen as an indicator of which team has preformed better)
- O'Gara is a fantastic fly half
- The Heineken Cup is "more intense" or has "better atmosphere" than the S14 (just try not to focus on the low skill levels or lack of ambition)
- Any rule changed proposed by the IRB or any reffing directive from the IRB is in actual fact a conspiracy concoted by the dastardly (and amazingly influential apparently) Australians to change the game to rugby league (for completely unexplained reasons) supported by the Kiwis and Saffers (also for unexplained reasons)
Project_Tyranny July 14, 2010 4:43 am
I really think the All Blacks should adopt the Timitanga.
It is by far the most intense and frightening haka, and it is the most fun to watch.
I know right now the Timitanga is exclusive to the NZ Maori, but i think in the 21st century, the Haka is now more of a crowd pleaser than an ESSENTIAL part of NZ rugby. The All Blacks would still play amazing without the Haka. It is more tradition for the fans and spectators. On that note, the Timitanga is the GREATEST Haka, and I would love the see the AB's doing it next year at the world cup, particularly against France (because I will be at that game :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PcmHqwP7Ow
It is by far the most intense and frightening haka, and it is the most fun to watch.
I know right now the Timitanga is exclusive to the NZ Maori, but i think in the 21st century, the Haka is now more of a crowd pleaser than an ESSENTIAL part of NZ rugby. The All Blacks would still play amazing without the Haka. It is more tradition for the fans and spectators. On that note, the Timitanga is the GREATEST Haka, and I would love the see the AB's doing it next year at the world cup, particularly against France (because I will be at that game :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PcmHqwP7Ow
Andrew July 14, 2010 5:43 am
To those people dissing the haka/ kapa o panga, you obviously not rugby fans are ya?
The Haka or Kapa o panga or any South Sea Island war cry before the game is a tradition. Every International Player that stands and faces this tradition has respect for the meaning. It is tradition this is rugby...Long live Rugby.
Go Bokke
The Haka or Kapa o panga or any South Sea Island war cry before the game is a tradition. Every International Player that stands and faces this tradition has respect for the meaning. It is tradition this is rugby...Long live Rugby.
Go Bokke
Anonymous July 14, 2010 5:54 am
Those who want rid of the Haka are obviously European bigots who cannot grasp that others have their own culture.
A Haka to those performing it is just as relative as their anthem, if not more so.
If you want to get rid of pre-game hakas I hope you also want rid of anthems.
A Haka to those performing it is just as relative as their anthem, if not more so.
If you want to get rid of pre-game hakas I hope you also want rid of anthems.
Anonymous July 14, 2010 6:05 am
A lot of me mates like it, but I still prefer the Ka Mat myself.
Social construction July 14, 2010 7:24 am
Although i think that the Haka is a great rugby tradition for the atmosphere that it creates, i am conflicted about parts of it. In some ways its important that the (usually) subaltern elements of local cultures are represented in the mainstream (you don't get much more mainstream than rugby in New Zealand), but there is also the problem of this element of Maori culture being portrayed and thus reifying the notion of 'indigenous' (Maori) peoples casting them as savage, bloodthirsty, warriors etc etc. All this problematically links to race in the broad meta-narrative of socially constructing the other. As such i am not sure if its progressive or offensive, regardless of its value as a traditional part of NZ rugby.
Jono July 14, 2010 7:39 am
Yeah but that's only if you're completely ignorant of what a haka represents, what maori culture is about and the role that hakas played in that culture.
It also ignores that fact that the maori were a warrior people and proud of it.
That doesn't necessarely make them savage and bloodthirsty.
Besides, isn't that for them to decide, rather than you and I?
It also ignores that fact that the maori were a warrior people and proud of it.
That doesn't necessarely make them savage and bloodthirsty.
Besides, isn't that for them to decide, rather than you and I?
Hi Ho July 14, 2010 7:50 am
I'm a proud Aussie but man I love the Haka. One of the best things in world sport. I can't for the life of me understand why everyone doesn't get a kick out of it.
Now for those of you who can put your hatred of league to one side, check out this awesome vision from the 2008 RL world cup final.... a very enjoyable haka experience:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuXmk4tVoSE
Unfortunately the Kiwis played above themselves that night and delivered a massive upset, so you could say standing up to the haka in this way backfired on this occasion... but still unreal to watch.
View Video
Now for those of you who can put your hatred of league to one side, check out this awesome vision from the 2008 RL world cup final.... a very enjoyable haka experience:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuXmk4tVoSE
Unfortunately the Kiwis played above themselves that night and delivered a massive upset, so you could say standing up to the haka in this way backfired on this occasion... but still unreal to watch.
View Video
Social construction July 14, 2010 7:52 am
Yes, i agree that the Haka sits within a broader context of 'Maori culture' which is not simply savage and warrior like. I also agree that its for them to decide what elements of that culture they choose to represent. That said, this is the most famous representation of 'Maori culture' in a world largely ignorant of the broader context you just mentioned.
As such my query is whether this choice of representation does not simply reinforce broader (ignorant) narratives of the Other as savage, bloodthirsty etc etc. Thereby exacerbating the same ignorance which is at the heart of making the performance of the Haka a potential problem.
I think from my concerns about this that you would understand me not to be a proponent of such a simple interpretation.
As such my query is whether this choice of representation does not simply reinforce broader (ignorant) narratives of the Other as savage, bloodthirsty etc etc. Thereby exacerbating the same ignorance which is at the heart of making the performance of the Haka a potential problem.
I think from my concerns about this that you would understand me not to be a proponent of such a simple interpretation.
Simon7 July 14, 2010 8:16 am
Social Construction, perhaps you should take you nose out of your textbook and actually ask a Maori what they think......just a thought.
Leeners93 July 14, 2010 10:24 am
agreed,the timatanga definitely is the best haka.however,i think it should be left to the maori side, because its part of THAT teams tradition.
David July 14, 2010 11:08 am
Hey Tommy i'm a northerner and i resent the 'O'Gara' is a great fly half bit!..........
......We've always known he's a total liability.
LOL.
......We've always known he's a total liability.
LOL.
Anonymous July 14, 2010 12:09 pm
no doubt about it, the haka fekkin' rocks and if in some way it makes the blacks play better (which sounds like a bit of a crock...) then that's cool too cos i want to see the boks up against the best possible.
Anybody who doesn't want the haka is probably not much of a sporting type, and if it bores you then you're likely emotionally dead.
Anybody who doesn't want the haka is probably not much of a sporting type, and if it bores you then you're likely emotionally dead.
Social construction July 14, 2010 12:26 pm
"my nose in my textbook", what a lovely bit of anti-intellectualism.
Sure there is no need for discussion here. We can just ask the Maori (all of them, they'll all agree, i'm sure). And besides the objects of representation always know what's materially best for them, they pretty much have the monopoly on knowledge. That's why women consent to being exploited in sexualised images, why black groups have overcome racial stereotypes regarding crime, drug use and violence and why France is busy banning the veil.
Sure there is no need for discussion here. We can just ask the Maori (all of them, they'll all agree, i'm sure). And besides the objects of representation always know what's materially best for them, they pretty much have the monopoly on knowledge. That's why women consent to being exploited in sexualised images, why black groups have overcome racial stereotypes regarding crime, drug use and violence and why France is busy banning the veil.
Anonymous July 14, 2010 12:33 pm
Love the Haka . Should always be part of New Zealands pre game warm up . I'm from Canada and lived in Sydney for 2009 . Seen The All Blacks live at ANZ Stadium . Awesome
Anonymous July 14, 2010 12:35 pm
@ whoever came up with Cock_2007 that is gold! That stupid bok poo pirate hasn't had much to crap on about this week... We could also refer to him as Ghost_2007 or maybe even Stuck_in_2007. ;-)
Alot like that combatbok character on youtube... They get overly excited and then disappear for a while... lol
Alot like that combatbok character on youtube... They get overly excited and then disappear for a while... lol
Laz July 14, 2010 12:41 pm
^ says a guy posting as Anonymous..
Anywaaay.. love the haka. I'm always amazed when people genuinely dislike it.
Anywaaay.. love the haka. I'm always amazed when people genuinely dislike it.
NiWiTa July 14, 2010 12:56 pm
Hey @Tommy, Scotsdale and anaonymous - take a chill pill on the anti-northern hemisphere stuff fellas. Many people like the Haka (me included). How about you brush that chip off your shoulder.
You are of course right on O'Gara - no doubt as an England supporter I can look forward to Martin Johnson asking him to become an Englishman and fill our inside centre position.
Must admit to liking the rugby league a lot too - does mean I am becoming Australian....
You are of course right on O'Gara - no doubt as an England supporter I can look forward to Martin Johnson asking him to become an Englishman and fill our inside centre position.
Must admit to liking the rugby league a lot too - does mean I am becoming Australian....
Andymo July 14, 2010 1:25 pm
"Those who want rid of the Haka are obviously European bigots who cannot grasp that others have their own culture."
What an utterly ridiculous and false statement.
Hows this one:
"Slave trading and slave owning was a part of European, African and Arab culture therefore to criticise slave owning is to be bigoted."
"Egyptian female circumcision is a customer and therefore above criticism."
I'm not criticising the Haka (which I like), I'm criticising your moral relativism. And if the Haka is indeed an advantage, then host countries have the right to deny the All Blacks their dance (as Wales did).
What an utterly ridiculous and false statement.
Hows this one:
"Slave trading and slave owning was a part of European, African and Arab culture therefore to criticise slave owning is to be bigoted."
"Egyptian female circumcision is a customer and therefore above criticism."
I'm not criticising the Haka (which I like), I'm criticising your moral relativism. And if the Haka is indeed an advantage, then host countries have the right to deny the All Blacks their dance (as Wales did).
Andymo July 14, 2010 1:26 pm
"Those who want rid of the Haka are obviously European bigots who cannot grasp that others have their own culture."
What an utterly ridiculous and false statement.
Hows this one:
"Slave trading and slave owning was a part of European, African and Arab culture therefore to criticise slave owning is to be bigoted."
"Egyptian female circumcision is a custom and therefore above criticism."
I'm not criticising the Haka (which I like), I'm criticising your moral relativism. And if the Haka is indeed an advantage, then host countries have the right to deny the All Blacks their dance (as Wales did).
What an utterly ridiculous and false statement.
Hows this one:
"Slave trading and slave owning was a part of European, African and Arab culture therefore to criticise slave owning is to be bigoted."
"Egyptian female circumcision is a custom and therefore above criticism."
I'm not criticising the Haka (which I like), I'm criticising your moral relativism. And if the Haka is indeed an advantage, then host countries have the right to deny the All Blacks their dance (as Wales did).
Andrew July 14, 2010 1:28 pm
@ Socialconstruction:
I hear where you are coming from, but did you also know that the Haka,
whether it be Ka Ma Te or Kapo o pango, the cry has to be led by a Maori on the field. No White/European can lead the team in the Cry. So my guess is that the Maori people dont mind and that they are just as proud of their All Blacks as any New Zealander
I hear where you are coming from, but did you also know that the Haka,
whether it be Ka Ma Te or Kapo o pango, the cry has to be led by a Maori on the field. No White/European can lead the team in the Cry. So my guess is that the Maori people dont mind and that they are just as proud of their All Blacks as any New Zealander
Social construction July 14, 2010 1:56 pm
@Andrew
I think that you're probably right regarding the Maori people not minding and being as proud of their All Blacks as any New Zealander.
Does anyone know if any of this has been debated in New Zealand? I am sure that there must be some critical Maori scholarship on this.
I think that you're probably right regarding the Maori people not minding and being as proud of their All Blacks as any New Zealander.
Does anyone know if any of this has been debated in New Zealand? I am sure that there must be some critical Maori scholarship on this.
ConnachtFan July 14, 2010 3:03 pm
For fuck sakes lads,have you all just starting watching rugby? Its the Haka for God's sake, it is an integral part of our game, I am a proud Irish supporter and felt privledged to have seen the Haka at Croke park ( and looking forward to seeing it again at our newly developed Lansdowne Road!!!)
Some of you critics have too much time on your hands....go troll elsewhere please.
Some of you critics have too much time on your hands....go troll elsewhere please.
that's what she July 14, 2010 3:37 pm
its been said above that the haka must be led by a maori,but in this posts intro it saya that the AB's experimented with mccaw leading it,and he is obviously not maori.which is correct?
Joey July 14, 2010 3:50 pm
Tana Umaga wasn't Maori either; he's Samoan. I don't really think there is a requirement for a Maori to lead; it's just better that way.
And Social, you're seriously asking on rugbydump.com whether there has been "critical Maori scholarship" on the haka?? Get over yourself. It's a terrific and unique tradition and yes, it's been debated in NZ, and will continue to be.
And Social, you're seriously asking on rugbydump.com whether there has been "critical Maori scholarship" on the haka?? Get over yourself. It's a terrific and unique tradition and yes, it's been debated in NZ, and will continue to be.
David July 14, 2010 4:32 pm
Most enjoyable Haka ever was in Thomond Park 2008. At least that's what Rua Tipoki told me when I asked him.....
Rigby July 14, 2010 4:40 pm
Great selling point for rugby -
Everybody loves watching the haka, except for the 22 men 10 yards opposite it.
Everybody loves watching the haka, except for the 22 men 10 yards opposite it.
Alexander July 14, 2010 5:22 pm
Agree with Andymo. No need for the European Bigots comment, that was an absolutely pathetic statement. Do I need to mention bigotism (a legible word?) pertaining to your beloved, infallible Southern hemisphere; Apartheid, ignorant racism against indigenous folk from the an Aussie PRIME MINISTER, being told to eff myself by Maori men whilst travelling Japan simply after I told them I was English (with real sincerity, although that was kinda funny in retrospect)etc.
Bigots are everywhere, don't have a go at a whole continent and say such narrow-minded, BIGOTED nonsense!!!!
P.S. Why this debate on the Haka. Who cares!! Long live it!!
Bigots are everywhere, don't have a go at a whole continent and say such narrow-minded, BIGOTED nonsense!!!!
P.S. Why this debate on the Haka. Who cares!! Long live it!!
JK July 14, 2010 5:28 pm
Anyone else see something snap in Bakkies' eyes at the end there?
Jimbo July 14, 2010 9:07 pm
@ Tommy - read the 5th post down.
Along with the other NH members on here I think we all agree that the Haka is awesome and should never be removed from the rugby experience. As for it being an advantage it hasn't really done New Zealand any favours when it comes to the most important event of the WC. I think NZ fans have a bit of a problem with England as we always perform better than expected in the WC instead of choking horribly and having to go home early. Be interesting to see what happens next year as they (NZ) have an amazing side that at the moment seems unstoppable. Hopefully it'll be a little bit more exciting than the Football WC which was s**t!!!
Please no more 'our hemisphere is better than your hemisphere'. Rugby = respect
Along with the other NH members on here I think we all agree that the Haka is awesome and should never be removed from the rugby experience. As for it being an advantage it hasn't really done New Zealand any favours when it comes to the most important event of the WC. I think NZ fans have a bit of a problem with England as we always perform better than expected in the WC instead of choking horribly and having to go home early. Be interesting to see what happens next year as they (NZ) have an amazing side that at the moment seems unstoppable. Hopefully it'll be a little bit more exciting than the Football WC which was s**t!!!
Please no more 'our hemisphere is better than your hemisphere'. Rugby = respect
Scotsdale July 14, 2010 9:15 pm
Haha well.. the thing is, Tommy was absolutely correct in what he said. Everything he listed there has been mentioned in recent times, and it's pretty annoying really. He's simply pointing it out and making it plain for all to see. Amusing really :)
That said though, I agree that there shouldnt be bickering between us. There's no point. Sort it out on the field. As you can see now too, the SH rivalry is so intense anyway. There's not much solidarity between NZ and SA right now!
That said though, I agree that there shouldnt be bickering between us. There's no point. Sort it out on the field. As you can see now too, the SH rivalry is so intense anyway. There's not much solidarity between NZ and SA right now!
mise July 15, 2010 1:45 am
Seems to be mostly Oz fans who dislike the haka, probably for neighbourly/big country small country/convict/colony reasons......(i.e. look at those uppity little neighbours of ours, who haven't tamed their natives.....)
Europeans see it, for the most part, as entertaining.
Is it not the case that rugby as a practice is just as, lets call it old skool, as the Haka.........physical prowess, men only, managed fighting, respect for mega hits, a sneeky culture of eye gouging, stamping, etc, and of course essentially a battle ...involving a projectile........ that's targeted at enemy turf?
Doesn't rugby as a sport mimic tribal battles in a _relatively_ safe way, and thus hark back to earlier times
e.g. (again from the history vids) of that 'sport' where the ball was essentially beaten to a village by a pair of villages, more or less performing as a mob?
Or more tribal fights or practices for fights from earlier times?
Europeans see it, for the most part, as entertaining.
Is it not the case that rugby as a practice is just as, lets call it old skool, as the Haka.........physical prowess, men only, managed fighting, respect for mega hits, a sneeky culture of eye gouging, stamping, etc, and of course essentially a battle ...involving a projectile........ that's targeted at enemy turf?
Doesn't rugby as a sport mimic tribal battles in a _relatively_ safe way, and thus hark back to earlier times
e.g. (again from the history vids) of that 'sport' where the ball was essentially beaten to a village by a pair of villages, more or less performing as a mob?
Or more tribal fights or practices for fights from earlier times?
Tommy July 15, 2010 2:56 am
Seriously??? ^
Most Australians love the haka, or just jokingly tease the Kiwis about it.
They're our cousins (There's about a billion of them living in Aus).
Australia has never treated the haka disrespectfully.
All the bs and whinging emanates from the British Irish teams, like Wales.
All the media garbage about it being an advantage emanates from there too.
Most Australians love the haka, or just jokingly tease the Kiwis about it.
They're our cousins (There's about a billion of them living in Aus).
Australia has never treated the haka disrespectfully.
All the bs and whinging emanates from the British Irish teams, like Wales.
All the media garbage about it being an advantage emanates from there too.
Tommy July 15, 2010 2:59 am
oh and Mise, like alot of Europeans, you assume that the haka is all abut battle.
The majority of hakas are not about that at all, and the ka mate haka isn't a war chant as such.
Look into it.
And to clarify, I don't think the majority of Europeans have a problem with it, in fact as you say it seems the majority think it's great entertainment.
Us Aussies have seen it more than you guys, so we don't get too excited by it anymore.
But it's like any old tradition for us, we have an admiration for it and just take it as a given that it's a part of rugby and the All Blacks.
The majority of hakas are not about that at all, and the ka mate haka isn't a war chant as such.
Look into it.
And to clarify, I don't think the majority of Europeans have a problem with it, in fact as you say it seems the majority think it's great entertainment.
Us Aussies have seen it more than you guys, so we don't get too excited by it anymore.
But it's like any old tradition for us, we have an admiration for it and just take it as a given that it's a part of rugby and the All Blacks.
Steak July 15, 2010 8:39 am
mise(rable) said:
"Seems to be mostly Oz fans who dislike the haka, probably for neighbourly/big country small country/convict/colony reasons......(i.e. look at those uppity little neighbours of ours, who haven't tamed their natives.....)"
That's hilarious. Don't confuse your myopic little opinion for fact.
"Seems to be mostly Oz fans who dislike the haka, probably for neighbourly/big country small country/convict/colony reasons......(i.e. look at those uppity little neighbours of ours, who haven't tamed their natives.....)"
That's hilarious. Don't confuse your myopic little opinion for fact.
(u-p)rick July 15, 2010 10:47 am
I for one do not want to see the haka gone, nor its pacific island counterparts.....
I think they add something a little different to the game...much like bakkies style of playing... (oops, sorry was that below the belt..?.)....(or above the neck?)
I think though its a classic part of rugby and the only way I'd like to see it gone would be if the AB's themselves decided not to do it....Id rather there wasn't some 'new legislation' tripe which stopped it....
Put it this way, the game is for fun, the haka is 'fun' to watch...so it would only be detrimental to remove it...
I think they add something a little different to the game...much like bakkies style of playing... (oops, sorry was that below the belt..?.)....(or above the neck?)
I think though its a classic part of rugby and the only way I'd like to see it gone would be if the AB's themselves decided not to do it....Id rather there wasn't some 'new legislation' tripe which stopped it....
Put it this way, the game is for fun, the haka is 'fun' to watch...so it would only be detrimental to remove it...
mise July 15, 2010 4:03 pm
"jokingly tease" . Exactly.
No one else does this, and it stems from the relationship between the two countries re scale colonial history etc.
Scale and neighbourly issue is much like the Irish and the Brits, the Finnish and the Russians, Canadians and Americans etc etc.
"Australia has never treated the haka disrespectfully." Oh pl-ease. Campo anyone?
The fact is: the only people you hear mocking it are Aussies.
(one mans joking tease is another mans....)
No one else does this, and it stems from the relationship between the two countries re scale colonial history etc.
Scale and neighbourly issue is much like the Irish and the Brits, the Finnish and the Russians, Canadians and Americans etc etc.
"Australia has never treated the haka disrespectfully." Oh pl-ease. Campo anyone?
The fact is: the only people you hear mocking it are Aussies.
(one mans joking tease is another mans....)
Jono July 15, 2010 10:55 pm
Mise, if you think us teasing the kiwis about it displays disrespect you know nothing about Australians, their sense of humour (irreverant) or their relationship with New Zealand (like the relationship between two brothers, lots of love, but lots of piss taking as well).
Australia and New Zealand are intertwinend, politically, culturally, economically.
They are our cousins, they fought and died beside us in many wars, and our rivalry (which is very real) is based on mutual respect, heavily flavoured with alot of taking the piss out of each other. But there's isn't any hate, and certainly no disrespect.
And Campo wasn't being disrespectful, at least not the way he would look at it. He was doing a bit of gamesmanship. Bear in mind that Campo isn't exactly a conformer and not very popular and certainly doesn't represent the country of Australia.
Besides which, you can respond to the haka any way you like. That's not the problem. The problem is people whinging about it's existance, and using that as an excuse for getting beaten by the All Blacks.
Australia and New Zealand are intertwinend, politically, culturally, economically.
They are our cousins, they fought and died beside us in many wars, and our rivalry (which is very real) is based on mutual respect, heavily flavoured with alot of taking the piss out of each other. But there's isn't any hate, and certainly no disrespect.
And Campo wasn't being disrespectful, at least not the way he would look at it. He was doing a bit of gamesmanship. Bear in mind that Campo isn't exactly a conformer and not very popular and certainly doesn't represent the country of Australia.
Besides which, you can respond to the haka any way you like. That's not the problem. The problem is people whinging about it's existance, and using that as an excuse for getting beaten by the All Blacks.
EARugbyFan July 16, 2010 12:08 am
I do not hate the Haka, I absolutely love it. However, I would also like countries with "Warrior" cultures perform their own.
I would love to see the Boks perform a Zulu version, for example.
The thing that bothers me, though, is that there have been instances where opposing teams "responded" to the haka by stepping forward, as an example and the Kiwis whinged, which I found pathetic.
Yes. It IS intimidating. Yes we RESPECT your cultural (Hell, I am not from New Zealand but regard it as a bonafide rugby custom, since I was a kid) But expecting absolutely no response from your opponents is quite hypocritical.
I would love to see the Boks perform a Zulu version, for example.
The thing that bothers me, though, is that there have been instances where opposing teams "responded" to the haka by stepping forward, as an example and the Kiwis whinged, which I found pathetic.
Yes. It IS intimidating. Yes we RESPECT your cultural (Hell, I am not from New Zealand but regard it as a bonafide rugby custom, since I was a kid) But expecting absolutely no response from your opponents is quite hypocritical.
EARugbyFan July 16, 2010 12:20 am
In addition, anyone claiming there is a competitive advantage from the Haka should write them a memo, because the All Blacks have perpetually choked at the world cup since they took the first title home.
(Believe me, this has pissed me off to no end over the years... I am an All Blacks Fan, as my native country will not see a 15s world cup in the foreseeable future.)
As for their success last weekend, colour me skeptical (peaking issues... there is a lot that can happen between now and that final).
(Believe me, this has pissed me off to no end over the years... I am an All Blacks Fan, as my native country will not see a 15s world cup in the foreseeable future.)
As for their success last weekend, colour me skeptical (peaking issues... there is a lot that can happen between now and that final).
Tommy July 16, 2010 2:27 am
This whole thing about the Kiwis hating people responding to the haka is based on one comment made by one player (Nonu) about one instance of a team responding to the haka.
In that instance Nonu was contradicted by all his other team mates and many people in his country, who expressed the opposite feelings as him, ie that the response was not only fine but a good way to handle the haka.
In that instance Nonu was contradicted by all his other team mates and many people in his country, who expressed the opposite feelings as him, ie that the response was not only fine but a good way to handle the haka.
EARugbyFan July 16, 2010 6:42 am
Thanks for that clarification, Tommy. Looks like I need to do some reading up to get better informed.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Scotsdale July 16, 2010 8:33 am
Jono hit the nail on the head. It's about mutual respect. I dont recall any aussies moaning about it ever anyway, bar Phil Kearns making a tongue & cheek comment once on air. It really does seem to be the countries that don't face it often, and cant beat them.
Re. Nonu - he's known to be a sook over there anyway. Don't pay attention to what he has to say.
Re. Nonu - he's known to be a sook over there anyway. Don't pay attention to what he has to say.
Otago Uni July 16, 2010 10:54 am
As a Kiwi I've never heard an aussie complain about the haka. The only resistance about it has come from the NH.
Pato July 16, 2010 1:10 pm
I love the Haka, but not this one... I miss the Kamate
Anonymous July 17, 2010 1:48 am
i think its shocking that nz are allowed to a tribal dance before matches and ireland arent allowed their actual national anthem
Alexander July 18, 2010 1:19 am
Oh my God stop the bickering who cares?!!!! Leave the haka be, this debate is like a broken pencil...POINTLESS!! The real debate should be where has all the respect gone in the rugby world? Heard a lot of AB fans booing the Saffers kickers today. It happens everywhere, nit just there. Now THERE is something to debate no?
jono July 18, 2010 11:18 pm
That thing about being quiet when the opposition team is kicking is a European thing, down south that's just never been done.
We boo whatever we feel like, it's all just for fun. You guys can make a big deal out of putting the opposition kicker off, we won't though.
It's just not a big deal.
We boo whatever we feel like, it's all just for fun. You guys can make a big deal out of putting the opposition kicker off, we won't though.
It's just not a big deal.
Alexander July 19, 2010 9:45 am
Maybe so, but I think its a tradition that we 'Europeans' (because there are only six nations in the whole of Europe apparently)should be proud of. It's just something every Dad has taught us from a young age, a nice nudge to the ribs to shush if we should be booing.
NiWiTa July 19, 2010 12:39 pm
Agree with @Alexander about booing which is unaccepatble at low-level amateur played by me but seems commonplace at international level in both hemispheres. However I fear this will be seen as anti-southern hemisphere.
The point for me about all rugby is the sharing of a team bond and mutual respect between teams. Just as I enjoy the HAKA, I also enjoy the sportsmanship of playing the game in the right spirit. To attract and grow our wonderful sport we need to differentiate ourselves from soccer/american football and so on....
Anyhow long live the HAKA - just you wait till the England team respond with a Morris Dancing exhibition! Then ABs will be runnign scared of us!
The point for me about all rugby is the sharing of a team bond and mutual respect between teams. Just as I enjoy the HAKA, I also enjoy the sportsmanship of playing the game in the right spirit. To attract and grow our wonderful sport we need to differentiate ourselves from soccer/american football and so on....
Anyhow long live the HAKA - just you wait till the England team respond with a Morris Dancing exhibition! Then ABs will be runnign scared of us!
Jono July 20, 2010 6:59 am
Alexander i say 'European' thing in the context of rugby, instead of 'the six nations countries'. It's just easier.
And if you guys are proud of that thing about not booing the kicker, fair enough, down south it would simply never occur to us to do that.
And if you guys are proud of that thing about not booing the kicker, fair enough, down south it would simply never occur to us to do that.
Anonymous July 20, 2010 7:19 am
thats easily one of the best ones ive seen in a while
mise July 22, 2010 11:35 pm
sorry didn't check back here in a while -
@ aabot : can't u guess from my previous posts?!?!
I presume its obvious that I have zero problem with the Haka btw
Re the Ozzies and the haka:
I'm simply honestly reflecting what I've heard over the years on fora, in conversation, from tv commentators, and yes occasionally even here re Ozzies and the Haka, and then extrapolating based on other (more sociological and political science orientated) knowledge on cultural relations between peoples. I know that sounds pompous on a forum like this, but that is my background (training-wise).
Now, I'm glad that many ppl from Oz have jumped to the defence of the Haka and Kiwis more generally, as there has to be some empathic overlap between the cultures.
But to presume that empathy is the only significant relationship would be naive.
Favourite Haka: both of them in Thomond Park in 2008.
surely that gives away where I live...........
@ aabot : can't u guess from my previous posts?!?!
I presume its obvious that I have zero problem with the Haka btw
Re the Ozzies and the haka:
I'm simply honestly reflecting what I've heard over the years on fora, in conversation, from tv commentators, and yes occasionally even here re Ozzies and the Haka, and then extrapolating based on other (more sociological and political science orientated) knowledge on cultural relations between peoples. I know that sounds pompous on a forum like this, but that is my background (training-wise).
Now, I'm glad that many ppl from Oz have jumped to the defence of the Haka and Kiwis more generally, as there has to be some empathic overlap between the cultures.
But to presume that empathy is the only significant relationship would be naive.
Favourite Haka: both of them in Thomond Park in 2008.
surely that gives away where I live...........
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