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Sunday, July 18, 2010

Jean De Villiers suspended for spear tackle on Rene Ranger

Jean De Villiers suspended for spear tackle on Rene Ranger

Springbok Jean De Villiers has been suspended for two weeks following a spear tackle on All Blacks debutant Rene Ranger. De Villiers was cited following the 31-17 loss the Tri Nations second test in Wellington.

While a lot of the debate after the match was about the Rossouw incident, the Ranger tackle on Kirchner, and Richie McCaw being uncardable, this citing perhaps surprised some as it seemed fairly innocuous at the time.

In recent years however, weve seen that this type of tip tackle is being stamped out of the game, with players have been shown yellow, and even red carded, for similar offences.

De Villiers appeared before judicial officer Dennis Wheelahan who found the South African back, who was playing out of position at wing, to be guilty after considering submissions from himself, his representatives, and taking into account video evidence.

He is now suspended until 1 August and will miss the upcoming Test against the Wallabies in Brisbane. With the form hes been in on the wing, and after having left the field with an injury in the second half, it seems as though he might not have played anyway.

One gets the impression that if it were spotted, and dealt with, by the officials during the match, the citing wouldn't have been necessary. In this case, two weeks probably equals a yellow card.

Do you think the suspension is harsh, or is it simply along the lines of recent judgements on dangerous tip tackles, therefore making it consistent and fair?

Posted at 12:16 pm | 136 comments

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Posted in Big Hits & Dirty Play

Viewing 136 comments

Redron July 18, 2010 11:08 am

I'm curious, how was that a spear?

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Redron July 18, 2010 11:08 am

I'm curious, how was that a spear?

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first! yuss! July 18, 2010 11:09 am

If the ref/touchie saw it on the field and he was penalised, he wouldnt have needed to be cited. So he can thank them for not doing their jobs...

That said, technically it is a spear, he's also lucky Thorn bumped into them mid-tackle slowing the momentum of Ranger hitting the ground.

Only misses 1 game in the end so no big deal.

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first! yuss! July 18, 2010 11:09 am

If the ref/touchie saw it on the field and he was penalised, he wouldnt have needed to be cited. So he can thank them for not doing their jobs...

That said, technically it is a spear, he's also lucky Thorn bumped into them mid-tackle slowing the momentum of Ranger hitting the ground.

Only misses 1 game in the end so no big deal.

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 11:09 am

Pretty sure it wasn't a penalty..

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 11:09 am

Pretty sure it wasn't a penalty..

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nomnom July 18, 2010 11:13 am

"I'm curious, how was that a spear?"

He lifted him above the horizontal and which lead to him landing head first. You know, like a spear!

You can see JDV lift his right arm in contact with Ranger's leg causing him to tip over the horizontal.

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nomnom July 18, 2010 11:13 am

"I'm curious, how was that a spear?"

He lifted him above the horizontal and which lead to him landing head first. You know, like a spear!

You can see JDV lift his right arm in contact with Ranger's leg causing him to tip over the horizontal.

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Redron July 18, 2010 11:30 am

After watching it again I have to admit it does resemble a spear tackle. Just ignore me, I play 7 :P.

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Redron July 18, 2010 11:30 am

After watching it again I have to admit it does resemble a spear tackle. Just ignore me, I play 7 :P.

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H July 18, 2010 11:37 am

I think JDV will welcome the break from playing on the wing.

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H July 18, 2010 11:37 am

I think JDV will welcome the break from playing on the wing.

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Jeroz July 18, 2010 11:55 am

he's really playing out of position. I know he used to play on the wing for the stormers but that's more than 5 years ago now.
Just get Oliver off the team, put JDV back in the no.12 jumper and normal order resumes

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Jeroz July 18, 2010 11:55 am

he's really playing out of position. I know he used to play on the wing for the stormers but that's more than 5 years ago now.
Just get Oliver off the team, put JDV back in the no.12 jumper and normal order resumes

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 11:59 am

It's slightly dangerous yes, but I think it was a bit harsh. And to nomnom, I believe Redron thought a spear ment like the wrestling move were you launch yourself off the ground and into the person

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 11:59 am

It's slightly dangerous yes, but I think it was a bit harsh. And to nomnom, I believe Redron thought a spear ment like the wrestling move were you launch yourself off the ground and into the person

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heyjealousy2310 July 18, 2010 12:40 pm

def a spear tackle. i'm all for the knocks and hard hits, but i don't encourage stupidly dangerous moves. it was unnecessary.

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heyjealousy2310 July 18, 2010 12:40 pm

def a spear tackle. i'm all for the knocks and hard hits, but i don't encourage stupidly dangerous moves. it was unnecessary.

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 12:42 pm

In the interest of fairness, do you think it is possible to post the video of Ranger shoulder charging ZAne Kircher in the sam match, thank you

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 12:42 pm

In the interest of fairness, do you think it is possible to post the video of Ranger shoulder charging ZAne Kircher in the sam match, thank you

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Mike July 18, 2010 12:44 pm

That's borderline, I think - it didn't look malicious, but I guess he did take him beyond the horizontal. Let's put it like this - I'm not complaining that he was suspended for it, but I wouldn't be complaining if he wasn't either. I don't think De Villiers is considered a dirty player anyway (subject to correction).

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Mike July 18, 2010 12:44 pm

That's borderline, I think - it didn't look malicious, but I guess he did take him beyond the horizontal. Let's put it like this - I'm not complaining that he was suspended for it, but I wouldn't be complaining if he wasn't either. I don't think De Villiers is considered a dirty player anyway (subject to correction).

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 12:48 pm

The SpringBoks- The new criminal element, Ha!

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 12:48 pm

The SpringBoks- The new criminal element, Ha!

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Mark July 18, 2010 12:54 pm

Given some of the lengthy and ridiculous bans handed out by citing commissions in the past it's nice to see some sensible action taken here. It wasn't a massively dangerous tackle but at the top level you need to set the highest standard of discipline for impressionable youngsters. It ammounts to a one match ban (or a yellow card but SA keep 15 players on the pitch). Pretty good decision I reckon. JDV isn't that sort of player but i'm always dumb-founded by the boks ability to weaken their side through indiscipline

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Mark July 18, 2010 12:54 pm

Given some of the lengthy and ridiculous bans handed out by citing commissions in the past it's nice to see some sensible action taken here. It wasn't a massively dangerous tackle but at the top level you need to set the highest standard of discipline for impressionable youngsters. It ammounts to a one match ban (or a yellow card but SA keep 15 players on the pitch). Pretty good decision I reckon. JDV isn't that sort of player but i'm always dumb-founded by the boks ability to weaken their side through indiscipline

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 1:05 pm

"In the interest of fairness, do you think it is possible to post the video of Ranger shoulder charging ZAne Kircher in the sam match, thank you"

It's in the video below, and its only a penalty so i dont see the point of posting it again.. and use the request section in the forum next time

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 1:05 pm

"In the interest of fairness, do you think it is possible to post the video of Ranger shoulder charging ZAne Kircher in the sam match, thank you"

It's in the video below, and its only a penalty so i dont see the point of posting it again.. and use the request section in the forum next time

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Billy July 18, 2010 1:59 pm

Ah come on lads...there was no way that could rated as a spear tackle!!Have a look at at least 80% of rugby matches and you'll see far worse than that...God what will happen next is you won't be able to tackle a player at all.The only surprise for me was that it was a Bok on a Kiwi not a Kiwi on a Bok...but if that happened the siting officer would have seen nothing!!

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Billy July 18, 2010 1:59 pm

Ah come on lads...there was no way that could rated as a spear tackle!!Have a look at at least 80% of rugby matches and you'll see far worse than that...God what will happen next is you won't be able to tackle a player at all.The only surprise for me was that it was a Bok on a Kiwi not a Kiwi on a Bok...but if that happened the siting officer would have seen nothing!!

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 2:16 pm

^Yeah South Africans are so unfairly treated by disciplinary officers. They're really all stand-up gentlemen but there's obviously a massive conspiracy against them. Justice 4 Bakkies.

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 2:16 pm

^Yeah South Africans are so unfairly treated by disciplinary officers. They're really all stand-up gentlemen but there's obviously a massive conspiracy against them. Justice 4 Bakkies.

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Billy July 18, 2010 2:26 pm

Dripping with sarcasm...well done!!!

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Billy July 18, 2010 2:26 pm

Dripping with sarcasm...well done!!!

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 2:29 pm

LET ME SEE THAT WAS A SPEAR BUT THE TACKLE AGAINST O`DRISCOLL BY UMAGA WASNT? WELL DONE IRB,BOUT AS USEFUL AS FIFA!!

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 2:29 pm

LET ME SEE THAT WAS A SPEAR BUT THE TACKLE AGAINST O`DRISCOLL BY UMAGA WASNT? WELL DONE IRB,BOUT AS USEFUL AS FIFA!!

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Nope July 18, 2010 2:38 pm

Billy said... ! Have a look at at least 80% of rugby matches and you'll see far worse than that...

No you don't so stop kidding yourself.

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Nope July 18, 2010 2:38 pm

Billy said... ! Have a look at at least 80% of rugby matches and you'll see far worse than that...

No you don't so stop kidding yourself.

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 2:58 pm

Wasn't much in it. If anything Ranger milked it. On the replay he looked to purposely get his arms out of the way so he could land on his face.

I'm English too, so it's not like I have any pro-Springbok bias.

For me the tackle was a yellow at best. And Rangers tackle earlier didn't even deserve a penalty, as that was legal.

If tackles like this are going to result in suspension the IRB might aswell ban any lifting what so ever.

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 2:58 pm

Wasn't much in it. If anything Ranger milked it. On the replay he looked to purposely get his arms out of the way so he could land on his face.

I'm English too, so it's not like I have any pro-Springbok bias.

For me the tackle was a yellow at best. And Rangers tackle earlier didn't even deserve a penalty, as that was legal.

If tackles like this are going to result in suspension the IRB might aswell ban any lifting what so ever.

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Brunei7YaD July 18, 2010 3:08 pm

"Anonymous said...
LET ME SEE THAT WAS A SPEAR BUT THE TACKLE AGAINST O`DRISCOLL BY UMAGA WASNT? WELL DONE IRB,BOUT AS USEFUL AS FIFA!!"
grow up man,get over it. it was YEARS ago. back then,it wasn't as strict as now days. don't bring back the case of Umaga did this or did that. i respect Umaga n sure it was wrong but it was all in the PAST.

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Brunei7YaD July 18, 2010 3:08 pm

"Anonymous said...
LET ME SEE THAT WAS A SPEAR BUT THE TACKLE AGAINST O`DRISCOLL BY UMAGA WASNT? WELL DONE IRB,BOUT AS USEFUL AS FIFA!!"
grow up man,get over it. it was YEARS ago. back then,it wasn't as strict as now days. don't bring back the case of Umaga did this or did that. i respect Umaga n sure it was wrong but it was all in the PAST.

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 3:36 pm

To me that does not seem like a spear, the spring boc did not even have forward momentum or leave his feet. At most the tackle might be considered a dump tackle as the offensive player laded on his shoulder and just about his head. but that was not a spear.

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 3:36 pm

To me that does not seem like a spear, the spring boc did not even have forward momentum or leave his feet. At most the tackle might be considered a dump tackle as the offensive player laded on his shoulder and just about his head. but that was not a spear.

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 3:42 pm

I don't mind players being suspended, I agree with the suspension of de Villiers, and with Danie's yellow card. I just think South Africans ask for consistency, Why was Ranger not even cited for his tackle on Zane? and what about McCaw's swinging arm retaliation to Danie's kick?

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 3:42 pm

I don't mind players being suspended, I agree with the suspension of de Villiers, and with Danie's yellow card. I just think South Africans ask for consistency, Why was Ranger not even cited for his tackle on Zane? and what about McCaw's swinging arm retaliation to Danie's kick?

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RememberTheMer July 18, 2010 3:53 pm

Of course its a spear tackle - he lifted him, tipped him and let him drop head first.

It wasn't a bad one - so 2 week ( = one game) suspension is about right.

P.S. BOD spear was 5 years ago. Since that incident you could have had a child who is now starting school. What was or wasn't done wrt BOD is irrelevant.

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RememberTheMer July 18, 2010 3:53 pm

Of course its a spear tackle - he lifted him, tipped him and let him drop head first.

It wasn't a bad one - so 2 week ( = one game) suspension is about right.

P.S. BOD spear was 5 years ago. Since that incident you could have had a child who is now starting school. What was or wasn't done wrt BOD is irrelevant.

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 3:56 pm

I don't think that deserved a citing, maybe just a penalty because it was an unnecessary tackle. Ranger had already lost control of the ball and he wasn't ready to take a tackle like that

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 3:56 pm

I don't think that deserved a citing, maybe just a penalty because it was an unnecessary tackle. Ranger had already lost control of the ball and he wasn't ready to take a tackle like that

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 4:00 pm

"Why was Ranger not even cited for his tackle on Zane?"

Because it was legal and he shouldn't have been penalised in the first place!

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 4:00 pm

"Why was Ranger not even cited for his tackle on Zane?"

Because it was legal and he shouldn't have been penalised in the first place!

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 4:54 pm

Dodgy tackle. Yellow at worst though. He didn't drive him head first.

And there was nothing wrong with the Ranger tackle. You can't wrap when the player bounces backwards.

And I agree about Olivier. I don't get why he's on the team. Especially when it puts JdV out of position. JdV should play centre with Aplon at the wing.

-KG

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 4:54 pm

Dodgy tackle. Yellow at worst though. He didn't drive him head first.

And there was nothing wrong with the Ranger tackle. You can't wrap when the player bounces backwards.

And I agree about Olivier. I don't get why he's on the team. Especially when it puts JdV out of position. JdV should play centre with Aplon at the wing.

-KG

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 5:53 pm

haha thats such bull shit that hes getting suspended for it but i'm kinda glad cause now we can start Gio Aplon on the wing like it should have been all along this tournament

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 5:53 pm

haha thats such bull shit that hes getting suspended for it but i'm kinda glad cause now we can start Gio Aplon on the wing like it should have been all along this tournament

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 6:05 pm

he definitely deserved his punishment for dropping Ranger on his head.

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Anonymous July 18, 2010 6:05 pm

he definitely deserved his punishment for dropping Ranger on his head.

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Jesse July 18, 2010 7:04 pm

SUSPENDED FOR THAT??????????

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Jesse July 18, 2010 7:04 pm

SUSPENDED FOR THAT??????????

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Jesse July 18, 2010 7:04 pm

SUSPENDED FOR THAT??????????

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Jesse July 18, 2010 7:04 pm

SUSPENDED FOR THAT??????????

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jpm July 18, 2010 7:28 pm

It was an illegal tackle....he was past the horizontal when he dropped/drove him down.

All of the you wind bags saying "it didn't appear malicious" etc....it doesn't matter...it's not relevant. All that matters is that he was past the horizontal.

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jpm July 18, 2010 7:28 pm

It was an illegal tackle....he was past the horizontal when he dropped/drove him down.

All of the you wind bags saying "it didn't appear malicious" etc....it doesn't matter...it's not relevant. All that matters is that he was past the horizontal.

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miguel July 18, 2010 8:51 pm

malicious or not does matter. look through videos of dangerous tackles and you'll see the differences where guys pick up their opponent and then either through their own momentum or another player coming in they end up turning them over versus it being a swift action.

intent is important when considering what sanction is appropriate and i'll begrudgingly agree that this is fair IF its part of the IRB's attempt to stamp out certain behavior. if they remain consistent send out appropriate directives to refs and teams then it will be fair. Otherwise it will simply be busy as usual with as a random process without intergrity.

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miguel July 18, 2010 8:51 pm

malicious or not does matter. look through videos of dangerous tackles and you'll see the differences where guys pick up their opponent and then either through their own momentum or another player coming in they end up turning them over versus it being a swift action.

intent is important when considering what sanction is appropriate and i'll begrudgingly agree that this is fair IF its part of the IRB's attempt to stamp out certain behavior. if they remain consistent send out appropriate directives to refs and teams then it will be fair. Otherwise it will simply be busy as usual with as a random process without intergrity.

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Jono July 18, 2010 11:12 pm

I think that's a very harsh call, but it's the way the game is going.
I guess he'll just have to deal with the suspension, as harsh as it seems.

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Jono July 18, 2010 11:12 pm

I think that's a very harsh call, but it's the way the game is going.
I guess he'll just have to deal with the suspension, as harsh as it seems.

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Anonymous July 19, 2010 2:47 am

HOW THE HELL WAS HE SUSPENDED FOR THAT!! HE DIDNT DRIVE HIM INTO THE GROUND OR EVEN DROP HIM AND HE DIDNT LAND ON HIS HEAD EITHER!!! IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE ESPECIALLY SINCE RANGER WASNT CITED FOR THE SHOULDER CHARGE.

just an unrelated question. how good would the all blacks actually be without all the polynesian talent that they steal? mealamu, afoa, tialata, kaino, vito, so'oialo, rococoko, ranger, wulf, sivivatu, nonu, muliaina. just wondering coz NZ has been complaining about moaris playing for england, although there have only been 2 of them.

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Anonymous July 19, 2010 2:47 am

HOW THE HELL WAS HE SUSPENDED FOR THAT!! HE DIDNT DRIVE HIM INTO THE GROUND OR EVEN DROP HIM AND HE DIDNT LAND ON HIS HEAD EITHER!!! IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE ESPECIALLY SINCE RANGER WASNT CITED FOR THE SHOULDER CHARGE.

just an unrelated question. how good would the all blacks actually be without all the polynesian talent that they steal? mealamu, afoa, tialata, kaino, vito, so'oialo, rococoko, ranger, wulf, sivivatu, nonu, muliaina. just wondering coz NZ has been complaining about moaris playing for england, although there have only been 2 of them.

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Anonymous July 19, 2010 2:56 am

To the above post,
all of those players save Sivivatu were born in New Zealand or moved to New Zealand at a very young age. They weren't stolen. So please, get your facts straight before you make yourself look like a complete asshole

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Anonymous July 19, 2010 2:56 am

To the above post,
all of those players save Sivivatu were born in New Zealand or moved to New Zealand at a very young age. They weren't stolen. So please, get your facts straight before you make yourself look like a complete asshole

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Tommy July 19, 2010 3:03 am

You are very, very ignorant.
You'll find that all of those players you've named were either born in NZ or have lived there from a very young age.
You will also find that many of the players who represent Samoa, Fiji or Tonga were in fact born in New Zealand or also grew up there from a young age.
This is because people of Fijian, Tongan or Samoan ancestory actually don't just live in Samoa, Tonga or Fiji, just like white people don't only live in europe or black people don't only live in africa. This shouldn't need explaining, but the large numbers of people who seem to be ignorant of this, means I guess someone has to.
For example, Wycliff Palu, born and raised in Sydney, parents from Tonga. This is normal. There ae hundreds of thousands of people who's parents, grandparents and ancestors are from the Islands but now live in Australia, New Zealand or another country.
Based on your logic, Bakkies Botha and Victor Matfield should probably be playing for Holland.

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Tommy July 19, 2010 3:03 am

You are very, very ignorant.
You'll find that all of those players you've named were either born in NZ or have lived there from a very young age.
You will also find that many of the players who represent Samoa, Fiji or Tonga were in fact born in New Zealand or also grew up there from a young age.
This is because people of Fijian, Tongan or Samoan ancestory actually don't just live in Samoa, Tonga or Fiji, just like white people don't only live in europe or black people don't only live in africa. This shouldn't need explaining, but the large numbers of people who seem to be ignorant of this, means I guess someone has to.
For example, Wycliff Palu, born and raised in Sydney, parents from Tonga. This is normal. There ae hundreds of thousands of people who's parents, grandparents and ancestors are from the Islands but now live in Australia, New Zealand or another country.
Based on your logic, Bakkies Botha and Victor Matfield should probably be playing for Holland.

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Anonymous July 19, 2010 3:30 am

This was ridiculous. There was no intent in this which is why I am sure the ref did not penalise it.

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Anonymous July 19, 2010 3:30 am

This was ridiculous. There was no intent in this which is why I am sure the ref did not penalise it.

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RememberTheMer July 19, 2010 5:03 am

Intent is irrelevant. Who could you possibly tell anyway?

The law states that it is the tacklers responsibility to bring a player down safely. This is an area of strict liability - you are guilty whether you meant it or not - because the potential for serious injury is huge.

This may be hard on De Villiers, but it was a simple one on one tackle so there was no need for him to lift and tip Ranger. Players will keep copping suspensions until they change their technique.

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RememberTheMer July 19, 2010 5:03 am

Intent is irrelevant. Who could you possibly tell anyway?

The law states that it is the tacklers responsibility to bring a player down safely. This is an area of strict liability - you are guilty whether you meant it or not - because the potential for serious injury is huge.

This may be hard on De Villiers, but it was a simple one on one tackle so there was no need for him to lift and tip Ranger. Players will keep copping suspensions until they change their technique.

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Anonymous July 19, 2010 5:26 am

not too sure why people have been moaning about the maori boys who are currently playing for england hwoever shontayne hape, riki flutey and the other guy whos name i cant think of all moved to england as adults specifically to play professionally, thats a big difference than the island boys who were born or or moved to new zealand as young kids. the guys in england are born and raised new zealanders who learnt everything they know about rugby in new zealand. the same can be said for mealamu and co who grew up and learnt their rugby in nz.

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Anonymous July 19, 2010 5:26 am

not too sure why people have been moaning about the maori boys who are currently playing for england hwoever shontayne hape, riki flutey and the other guy whos name i cant think of all moved to england as adults specifically to play professionally, thats a big difference than the island boys who were born or or moved to new zealand as young kids. the guys in england are born and raised new zealanders who learnt everything they know about rugby in new zealand. the same can be said for mealamu and co who grew up and learnt their rugby in nz.

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getreal July 19, 2010 5:37 am

"Wasn't much in it. If anything Ranger milked it. On the replay he looked to purposely get his arms out of the way so he could land on his face."

Wow you're an idiot!! So ranger told himself.. "i wanna risk damaging my shoulder so i can milk a penalty out of this".. hahaha what a load of rubbish!!

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getreal July 19, 2010 5:37 am

"Wasn't much in it. If anything Ranger milked it. On the replay he looked to purposely get his arms out of the way so he could land on his face."

Wow you're an idiot!! So ranger told himself.. "i wanna risk damaging my shoulder so i can milk a penalty out of this".. hahaha what a load of rubbish!!

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Mal July 19, 2010 6:30 am

Anonymous said...
just an unrelated question. how good would the all blacks actually be without all the polynesian talent that they steal?

A couple of people have answered already and I know this stuff is just ignorance, but it hasn't come up for a while so here's an update.
Every player in Saturday's squad was born in NZ except: Muliaina who went to NZ as a 2 year old, and Kaino and Weepu who went to school and learnt their rugby in NZ.
Ben Franks was born in Oz, but his brother Owen was born in NZ.
How good?, you ask. As there's no stealing going on then I guess they'd be about the same, sorry.

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Mal July 19, 2010 6:30 am

Anonymous said...
just an unrelated question. how good would the all blacks actually be without all the polynesian talent that they steal?

A couple of people have answered already and I know this stuff is just ignorance, but it hasn't come up for a while so here's an update.
Every player in Saturday's squad was born in NZ except: Muliaina who went to NZ as a 2 year old, and Kaino and Weepu who went to school and learnt their rugby in NZ.
Ben Franks was born in Oz, but his brother Owen was born in NZ.
How good?, you ask. As there's no stealing going on then I guess they'd be about the same, sorry.

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Read a book July 19, 2010 6:42 am

@ Tommy, talk about ignorance.. Why would Botha & Matfield play for Holland?? Both of their parents are South African, as are their parents. After that, I'm not sure, as it's going back some time. In fact Matfield's name is English, so maybe he should turn out for England rather?

Saying they have some connection to Holland is like saying that Ronaldinho shouldn't be playing for Brazil, because the language he speaks is Portuguese.

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Read a book July 19, 2010 6:42 am

@ Tommy, talk about ignorance.. Why would Botha & Matfield play for Holland?? Both of their parents are South African, as are their parents. After that, I'm not sure, as it's going back some time. In fact Matfield's name is English, so maybe he should turn out for England rather?

Saying they have some connection to Holland is like saying that Ronaldinho shouldn't be playing for Brazil, because the language he speaks is Portuguese.

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Read a book July 19, 2010 6:46 am

So basically they're not from another country but moved to SA - they were born and raised there, as were their parents, etc. That's very different to the NZ situation, although I personally have no major issues with the NZ situation.. that's life, people move to better places.

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Read a book July 19, 2010 6:46 am

So basically they're not from another country but moved to SA - they were born and raised there, as were their parents, etc. That's very different to the NZ situation, although I personally have no major issues with the NZ situation.. that's life, people move to better places.

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Anonymous July 19, 2010 7:02 am

Wow you're an idiot!! So ranger told himself.. "i wanna risk damaging my shoulder so i can milk a penalty out of this"

But he didn't damage his shoulder and there was no risk of damaging his shoulder, such was the nature of the tackle.

There was nothing in it. He purposely got himself in a position where the tackle would look bad.

You're very naive if you think players don't do this. Happens all the time.

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Anonymous July 19, 2010 7:02 am

Wow you're an idiot!! So ranger told himself.. "i wanna risk damaging my shoulder so i can milk a penalty out of this"

But he didn't damage his shoulder and there was no risk of damaging his shoulder, such was the nature of the tackle.

There was nothing in it. He purposely got himself in a position where the tackle would look bad.

You're very naive if you think players don't do this. Happens all the time.

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NiWiTa July 19, 2010 12:58 pm

....seems to me the sensible argument here is between intent v severity of the outcome....

I think the referee got it about right. The key thing though is maintaining consistency for the future which I doubt the IRB will do. I would like to see spear tackles out of the game having had a collar bone broken in one. Playing a low amateur level I would asy the "intent" was not there but the lack of skill/control was. Perhaps this justifies the 2 week ban JDV got considering his skills and strength?

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NiWiTa July 19, 2010 12:58 pm

....seems to me the sensible argument here is between intent v severity of the outcome....

I think the referee got it about right. The key thing though is maintaining consistency for the future which I doubt the IRB will do. I would like to see spear tackles out of the game having had a collar bone broken in one. Playing a low amateur level I would asy the "intent" was not there but the lack of skill/control was. Perhaps this justifies the 2 week ban JDV got considering his skills and strength?

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H July 19, 2010 1:03 pm

Read a book, learn to read sarcasm..

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H July 19, 2010 1:03 pm

Read a book, learn to read sarcasm..

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vinniechan July 19, 2010 2:08 pm

A ban is so harsh
Anyway, Springboks who ply their trade in up North are out of pace, so out of pace that JDV has been moved from centre to wing.

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vinniechan July 19, 2010 2:08 pm

A ban is so harsh
Anyway, Springboks who ply their trade in up North are out of pace, so out of pace that JDV has been moved from centre to wing.

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Anonymous July 19, 2010 5:39 pm

Very harsh suspension. The Ranger tackle on Kirchner was far worse than that, but as usual the kiwi gets away without punishment.

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Anonymous July 19, 2010 5:39 pm

Very harsh suspension. The Ranger tackle on Kirchner was far worse than that, but as usual the kiwi gets away without punishment.

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Tommy July 19, 2010 11:00 pm

Read a book, obviously it would be ridiculous if Matfield and Botha played for Holland, that was the point of what i was saying.
Just because their ancestory is Dutch (or probably is, I don't know that for sure, it was just an example), doesn't mean they shouldn't play for the country they were born and raised in.
The same applies to the NZ team, many of whom have Islander ancestory but all of whom except for Mialamu, Weepu and Kaino (all of whom moved to NZ as young childrena nd spent almost all their lvies there, gaining citizenship and playing all their rugby there), were born in NZ.
If it's ridiculous to suggest that Botha play for Holland, it's equally ridiculous for someone like ranger to play for Samoa.
That's what I was saying, obviously.
If a guy is born in NZ, and wants to play for the country of his birth, why shouldn't he?
Because his parents are Samoan? What a load of bullshit.

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Tommy July 19, 2010 11:00 pm

Read a book, obviously it would be ridiculous if Matfield and Botha played for Holland, that was the point of what i was saying.
Just because their ancestory is Dutch (or probably is, I don't know that for sure, it was just an example), doesn't mean they shouldn't play for the country they were born and raised in.
The same applies to the NZ team, many of whom have Islander ancestory but all of whom except for Mialamu, Weepu and Kaino (all of whom moved to NZ as young childrena nd spent almost all their lvies there, gaining citizenship and playing all their rugby there), were born in NZ.
If it's ridiculous to suggest that Botha play for Holland, it's equally ridiculous for someone like ranger to play for Samoa.
That's what I was saying, obviously.
If a guy is born in NZ, and wants to play for the country of his birth, why shouldn't he?
Because his parents are Samoan? What a load of bullshit.

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Anonymous July 20, 2010 1:43 am

Uhhh.. Piri Weepu was born in NZ, hes Maori, not Pacific..

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Anonymous July 20, 2010 1:43 am

Uhhh.. Piri Weepu was born in NZ, hes Maori, not Pacific..

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Tommy July 20, 2010 3:32 am

There you go, I was basing that on what another guy ahead of me said, I thought he was maori.
So it's only Mialamu (he moved there when he was like 2 if I'm right)and Kaino (pretty sure he too has been there since he was a kid).

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Tommy July 20, 2010 3:32 am

There you go, I was basing that on what another guy ahead of me said, I thought he was maori.
So it's only Mialamu (he moved there when he was like 2 if I'm right)and Kaino (pretty sure he too has been there since he was a kid).

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Anonymous July 20, 2010 5:50 am

yeah piri is maori, ranger cook island/maori, nonu born in wellington, mealamu kaino and muliaina moved with their parents before the age of 5.
I think its more a case of jealousy than anything. most of the big nations have people playing for them that were born elsewhere, england with 3 or 4 kiwi, plus the brothers from trinidad, southafrica has a few from zimbabwe, australia has a few kiwis and islanders, hell i dont see anyone moaning about italy who have a united nations worth of different players.

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Anonymous July 20, 2010 5:50 am

yeah piri is maori, ranger cook island/maori, nonu born in wellington, mealamu kaino and muliaina moved with their parents before the age of 5.
I think its more a case of jealousy than anything. most of the big nations have people playing for them that were born elsewhere, england with 3 or 4 kiwi, plus the brothers from trinidad, southafrica has a few from zimbabwe, australia has a few kiwis and islanders, hell i dont see anyone moaning about italy who have a united nations worth of different players.

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Tommy July 20, 2010 6:52 am

Mate, of course it's jelousy.
It's also just ignorance, I think Europeans and South africans honestly believe that if a guy has a Samoan, Tongan or Fijian name he must have been born there and have been stolen by some kiwis or Australians at an early age and smuggled away to play rugby for us.
It's the equivilant of assuming that Ugo Monye has been poached from Nigeria or whatever country his parents are from from, just cuz he's black andf his name isn't John Smith.

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Tommy July 20, 2010 6:52 am

Mate, of course it's jelousy.
It's also just ignorance, I think Europeans and South africans honestly believe that if a guy has a Samoan, Tongan or Fijian name he must have been born there and have been stolen by some kiwis or Australians at an early age and smuggled away to play rugby for us.
It's the equivilant of assuming that Ugo Monye has been poached from Nigeria or whatever country his parents are from from, just cuz he's black andf his name isn't John Smith.

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Anonymous July 20, 2010 8:10 am

Tommy dont be a twit, who'd wanna play for SA anyway? they are slipping....

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Anonymous July 20, 2010 8:10 am

Tommy dont be a twit, who'd wanna play for SA anyway? they are slipping....

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Anonymous July 20, 2010 10:09 am

IRB members are doing the best they can to prevent broken necks and spinal cord injuries...
It was fair.

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Anonymous July 20, 2010 10:09 am

IRB members are doing the best they can to prevent broken necks and spinal cord injuries...
It was fair.

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Anonymous July 20, 2010 11:58 am

Mate, of course it's jelousy.
It's also just ignorance, I think Europeans and South africans honestly believe that if a guy has a Samoan, Tongan or Fijian name he must have been born there and have been stolen by some kiwis or Australians at an early age and smuggled away to play rugby for us.
It's the equivilant of assuming that Ugo Monye has been poached from Nigeria or whatever country his parents are from from, just cuz he's black andf his name isn't John Smith.

....

That's spot on.

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Anonymous July 20, 2010 11:58 am

Mate, of course it's jelousy.
It's also just ignorance, I think Europeans and South africans honestly believe that if a guy has a Samoan, Tongan or Fijian name he must have been born there and have been stolen by some kiwis or Australians at an early age and smuggled away to play rugby for us.
It's the equivilant of assuming that Ugo Monye has been poached from Nigeria or whatever country his parents are from from, just cuz he's black andf his name isn't John Smith.

....

That's spot on.

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NiWiTa July 20, 2010 2:19 pm

Tommy - Thanks for the blanket decision on how all Europeans and South Africans think. Any other racial epithets you would like attribute to people? Perhaps you'd like to make an assertion on Jewish people being tight with money and black people from the US being violent gangbangers....

Mate listen to yourself - haven't you just shot your own argument in the foot? this is a rugby site, not a - YAWN - exercise you own bigotry site... Thanks also to the idiot that without any form of knowledge started this grump-fest by claiming half the NZ squad shouldn't be allowed to play for NZ. Nice one you daft beggar...

Have a good day/night..

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NiWiTa July 20, 2010 2:19 pm

Tommy - Thanks for the blanket decision on how all Europeans and South Africans think. Any other racial epithets you would like attribute to people? Perhaps you'd like to make an assertion on Jewish people being tight with money and black people from the US being violent gangbangers....

Mate listen to yourself - haven't you just shot your own argument in the foot? this is a rugby site, not a - YAWN - exercise you own bigotry site... Thanks also to the idiot that without any form of knowledge started this grump-fest by claiming half the NZ squad shouldn't be allowed to play for NZ. Nice one you daft beggar...

Have a good day/night..

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mango July 20, 2010 5:43 pm

I do NOT view this as a dump/spear tackle. De Viliers brought the player to the ground. On the other issues of why other players were not carded/cited is because Refs I believe are afraid to penalise any AB when playing in NZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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mango July 20, 2010 5:43 pm

I do NOT view this as a dump/spear tackle. De Viliers brought the player to the ground. On the other issues of why other players were not carded/cited is because Refs I believe are afraid to penalise any AB when playing in NZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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James July 20, 2010 9:57 pm

This is a little bit ridiculous, these kind of penalties..this is the same thing we make fun of soccer players for...calls on so called "dangerous" play...he picked him up and put him down...its a bit silly that this kind of tackle is even illegal in the first place.

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James July 20, 2010 9:57 pm

This is a little bit ridiculous, these kind of penalties..this is the same thing we make fun of soccer players for...calls on so called "dangerous" play...he picked him up and put him down...its a bit silly that this kind of tackle is even illegal in the first place.

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Tommy July 21, 2010 5:18 am

Nitwa what I said was tounge in cheek.
Of course not all europeans or South Africans think the same way, which is why I used the expression "t's almost as if'.
I'm just sick of hearing about how NZ and Aus poach Islanders as though they couldn't possible be from NZ or Aus if they have Islander ancestory.

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Tommy July 21, 2010 5:18 am

Nitwa what I said was tounge in cheek.
Of course not all europeans or South Africans think the same way, which is why I used the expression "t's almost as if'.
I'm just sick of hearing about how NZ and Aus poach Islanders as though they couldn't possible be from NZ or Aus if they have Islander ancestory.

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Tommy July 21, 2010 5:19 am

You know what, shit, I didn't use that expression. Whatever, I should.
Sorry if I offended you, even though being characterised as European or South aFrican isn't actually in any way racial.

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Tommy July 21, 2010 5:19 am

You know what, shit, I didn't use that expression. Whatever, I should.
Sorry if I offended you, even though being characterised as European or South aFrican isn't actually in any way racial.

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NiWiTa July 21, 2010 11:58 am

he he he - in that case Tommy all the NZ team consists of Islanders that should be playing for their home countries!

tongue in cheek of course. Were I to rise to the dizzy heights of international playing level with split nationality (English/Kiwi) - I would play for the allblacks so I had a chance of winning something. As it is my next award will probably be most readable sidestep and deceptively slow player in regional division 4.

What is the official take by the IRB on who you can play for? I assume permanent residency for a period over 5 years is enough (e.g. Hape, Flutey et al).

Peace out, N

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NiWiTa July 21, 2010 11:58 am

he he he - in that case Tommy all the NZ team consists of Islanders that should be playing for their home countries!

tongue in cheek of course. Were I to rise to the dizzy heights of international playing level with split nationality (English/Kiwi) - I would play for the allblacks so I had a chance of winning something. As it is my next award will probably be most readable sidestep and deceptively slow player in regional division 4.

What is the official take by the IRB on who you can play for? I assume permanent residency for a period over 5 years is enough (e.g. Hape, Flutey et al).

Peace out, N

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Tommy July 22, 2010 3:38 am

Niwta, the criterea is a bit dodgy.
It's pretty easy to play for a country you weren't born in.
Obviously residency is one way, citizenship, obviously, but also if your parents or even grandparents (even just one grandparent) is from that country you can play for that country.
The thing is it comes down to what the player wants to do.
People act like players are robots or a commodity and nations steal them from each other.
Ultimatly it's the players descision who he plays for and as long as he qualifies under the rules, he can do whatever he bloody likes.
In NZ's case almost all of their players were either born in NZ or have been there the vast majority of their lives, so I don;t see why they get singled out.
Countries like England and my own, Australia, are much more cynical about poaching players.
Every single country does it though, every one.
South africa caps Namibians and Zimbabweans, England poaches Saffers and kiwis, Wales has capped the odd Aussie or kiwi, Ireland and Scotland both currently have Australians playing for them, France has taken South africans and Georgians, Italy and Japan take players from everyone.
Samoa, Tonga and Fiji have loads of players who were born in NZ and the odd one born in Australia.
Everyone does it, why single out NZ?

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Tommy July 22, 2010 3:38 am

Niwta, the criterea is a bit dodgy.
It's pretty easy to play for a country you weren't born in.
Obviously residency is one way, citizenship, obviously, but also if your parents or even grandparents (even just one grandparent) is from that country you can play for that country.
The thing is it comes down to what the player wants to do.
People act like players are robots or a commodity and nations steal them from each other.
Ultimatly it's the players descision who he plays for and as long as he qualifies under the rules, he can do whatever he bloody likes.
In NZ's case almost all of their players were either born in NZ or have been there the vast majority of their lives, so I don;t see why they get singled out.
Countries like England and my own, Australia, are much more cynical about poaching players.
Every single country does it though, every one.
South africa caps Namibians and Zimbabweans, England poaches Saffers and kiwis, Wales has capped the odd Aussie or kiwi, Ireland and Scotland both currently have Australians playing for them, France has taken South africans and Georgians, Italy and Japan take players from everyone.
Samoa, Tonga and Fiji have loads of players who were born in NZ and the odd one born in Australia.
Everyone does it, why single out NZ?

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Anonymous July 22, 2010 7:09 am

Yes definately a spear as hips, legs and even lower torso were above head in tackle. Reveiwing the Matt Banahan ban in comparison, I feel Matt was very unfairly treated and JDV got off incredibly lightly.

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Anonymous July 22, 2010 7:09 am

Yes definately a spear as hips, legs and even lower torso were above head in tackle. Reveiwing the Matt Banahan ban in comparison, I feel Matt was very unfairly treated and JDV got off incredibly lightly.

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Simon7 July 22, 2010 8:48 am

I think part of the reason that the IRB are so tough on lifting tackles is due to past pressure from hysteric fans, coaches and media if they lose.

There is much wailing and knashing of teeth about a certain tackle or incident during the game and the IRB thinks 'Shit, we better tighten up on this'.

Point being, we reap what we sow and in a couple of seasons all perceived shoulder charges will be reciving 2-3 week bans. Thank you South Africa.....well done.

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Simon7 July 22, 2010 8:48 am

I think part of the reason that the IRB are so tough on lifting tackles is due to past pressure from hysteric fans, coaches and media if they lose.

There is much wailing and knashing of teeth about a certain tackle or incident during the game and the IRB thinks 'Shit, we better tighten up on this'.

Point being, we reap what we sow and in a couple of seasons all perceived shoulder charges will be reciving 2-3 week bans. Thank you South Africa.....well done.

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NiWiTa July 22, 2010 12:03 pm

- Hi Tommy - interesting point here to be followed up on re poaching and player selection.

See National pride can often be divisive and I guess as you highlighted, the logic is if you have a claim (via grandparents, parents, birth, living etc...) and "feel" for example more Samoan than Australian than you can make the choice.....


It does lead to some amusing situations i.e. the Mafu brothers playing opposite each other in the front row for Fiji v Australia or NZ (can't remember now) test. I can imagine that will be fun after they both laid one or two well-placed lumps on each other.

Perhaps then no one should complain. Reason being it comes down to player choice and those that do complain perhaps don't get the drive to win. After all if extremely lucky some of us might get approached to play for one National team. To be asked to play for two and not pick the one where international honours might be possible would be extremely hard to do....

After all that the JDV "spear-tackle" on second viewing was a spear tackle.

Later...

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NiWiTa July 22, 2010 12:03 pm

- Hi Tommy - interesting point here to be followed up on re poaching and player selection.

See National pride can often be divisive and I guess as you highlighted, the logic is if you have a claim (via grandparents, parents, birth, living etc...) and "feel" for example more Samoan than Australian than you can make the choice.....


It does lead to some amusing situations i.e. the Mafu brothers playing opposite each other in the front row for Fiji v Australia or NZ (can't remember now) test. I can imagine that will be fun after they both laid one or two well-placed lumps on each other.

Perhaps then no one should complain. Reason being it comes down to player choice and those that do complain perhaps don't get the drive to win. After all if extremely lucky some of us might get approached to play for one National team. To be asked to play for two and not pick the one where international honours might be possible would be extremely hard to do....

After all that the JDV "spear-tackle" on second viewing was a spear tackle.

Later...

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Luxi July 25, 2010 2:45 pm

the head enters the ground first and its really dangerous for players' necks so yeah 2 weeks is legitimate

but i have noi problem with dump tackles (actually i enjoy giving them) so long as the landing isnt head first

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Luxi July 25, 2010 2:45 pm

the head enters the ground first and its really dangerous for players' necks so yeah 2 weeks is legitimate

but i have noi problem with dump tackles (actually i enjoy giving them) so long as the landing isnt head first

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