Wednesday, July 21, 2010
Rene Ranger big hit on Zane Kirchner, & Kirchner hit on Cory Jane
In the first clip, as shown during the highlights package on Saturday, you can see the big hit by debutant Rene Ranger on Springbok Zane Kirchner that rocked him back while he was tackled low by Conrad Smith.
One of the reasons for posting the hit again is that on this one you can hear it from the New Zealand commentators perspective, who seem to have mixed opinions on the legality of it, but then seem to agree in the end that it was perfectly legal. On the South African feed, Bob Skinstand was outraged. Perhaps it just depends on which side of the fence you're sitting?
Later in the match, Kirchner got his own back as Cory Jane cut inside and got smashed with a forearm square on the chin. The tackle wasn't spotted by any of the officials, and Kirchner wasn't cited. Jane did lower himself slightly, so maybe that's why Kirchner got away with it, but there seems to be a few things being missed out there, as well as strangely dealt with at times.
Feel free to share you opinion, but this post is mainly just to show the incidents as some had requested seeing them again. I'm myself am still undecided about the Ranger hit, so might need some convincing either way. Are there any other incidents that you'd like to see again?
Posted at 11:17 am | 81 comments
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Viewing 81 comments
HwA July 21, 2010 1:03 pm
second! rene ranger, looked as if he didnt use his arms, as the guy was already going down from the tackler already on him, so he couldn't really wrap up
NiWiTa July 21, 2010 1:08 pm
not first! Both were penalties although within the letter of the law. There looks to be a paltry attempt at arm wrap by the allblack player so perhaps this could be deemed slightly harsh...
The Kirchner tackle appears to me like a good old-fashioned clothesline! Personally I think it is deffo a penalty. Even if Jane had not ducked down the arm would have ridden higher. Possibly a yellow card there methinks. I don't know much about Kirchner - is he a bit cheeky with foul play usually?
Over and out
The Kirchner tackle appears to me like a good old-fashioned clothesline! Personally I think it is deffo a penalty. Even if Jane had not ducked down the arm would have ridden higher. Possibly a yellow card there methinks. I don't know much about Kirchner - is he a bit cheeky with foul play usually?
Over and out
sleepyboi July 21, 2010 1:08 pm
2nd strictly speaking. even in slow mo, ranger's hand is almost in cync with the hit. so idt its a shoulder charge. However for kirchner, he is flying his arm towards jane with almost no intention or wrapping (almost like throwing his arms up when he saw jane coming).
just my take
just my take
Bradders July 21, 2010 1:11 pm
He could have definately wrapped but he went for the power option which I am a big fan of!
What was Cory Jane doing? Like he was taking a stroll in the park! Douche Bag! ha
What was Cory Jane doing? Like he was taking a stroll in the park! Douche Bag! ha
VanderRef July 21, 2010 1:14 pm
In the first hit the Kiwi player came in without the intention to use his arm, this is concidered dangerous. A yellow card would have been harse.
In the second video the bokke player doesn't make any attempt to tackle below the shoulderline. He also come in with a stretched arm. Taking this in consideration I would say that a yellow card would have been justified.
In the second video the bokke player doesn't make any attempt to tackle below the shoulderline. He also come in with a stretched arm. Taking this in consideration I would say that a yellow card would have been justified.
Anonymous July 21, 2010 1:18 pm
The Ranger hit looks a lot worse in the first angle than the second. The first angle makes it look like he made no attempt to wrap at all (although i must say, it would be hard to wrap a player when a guy on the floor is taking your out from the feet) but in the second angle you can at least see some attempt to wrap up.
The Kirchner hit on the other hand was flat out dangerous. No matter what height Jane was entering the tackle, it would have ended badly.
The Kirchner hit on the other hand was flat out dangerous. No matter what height Jane was entering the tackle, it would have ended badly.
Anonymous July 21, 2010 1:19 pm
UK referees????
Excuse me but they are both Irish!
Excuse me but they are both Irish!
hnj July 21, 2010 1:32 pm
Jane actually slipped when he cut inside so it made the Kirchner tackle look worse than it was.
Flooz July 21, 2010 1:44 pm
i'm from the NH and i'm completly outraged by these little misters from Fox TV. How can they say, it is a perfect tackle on ranger shoulder? He didn't wrap his arms, so it was penalty.
Kirshner clothesline needed also a penalty, could have been dangerous even if cory jane was goin down.
Rugby must continue to be a sport for hardmen but these biased commentaries really begin to annoy me
Kirshner clothesline needed also a penalty, could have been dangerous even if cory jane was goin down.
Rugby must continue to be a sport for hardmen but these biased commentaries really begin to annoy me
Alexander July 21, 2010 2:10 pm
I actually momentarily turn off the commentary now and then because I can't stop laughing when its kiwis commentating, they're sooo biased its untrue!
Tui July 21, 2010 2:29 pm
Can't blame the boks, they normally resort to cheating wherever possible....
#i think the first was pretty legit, i mean, how often do we see players bounce off another player and then everyone goes 'he hit him so hard there was no time to wrap...' (yeh, bullshit) but this tackle ranger was just as much bumped off as kirchner was....
second "tackle" was a bok speciality tactic!
Still feeling number ones now bok fans? or have we shut you up yet?
#i think the first was pretty legit, i mean, how often do we see players bounce off another player and then everyone goes 'he hit him so hard there was no time to wrap...' (yeh, bullshit) but this tackle ranger was just as much bumped off as kirchner was....
second "tackle" was a bok speciality tactic!
Still feeling number ones now bok fans? or have we shut you up yet?
Benson July 21, 2010 2:35 pm
@Tui, two wins at home and you're all mouthy. Get over yourself bro. If it were King Richie who was carded (as he should have been) and not a bok in each match, maybe things would have been a little closer.
Anonymous July 21, 2010 2:37 pm
Ranger never looked to wrap his arms around - should have had a warning (initially I said yellow, but 2nd look suggests not).
Kirchner should have no more than a penalty as Jane started to fall before the hit which made Kirchner change the hit slightly - nothing too bad in my view.
Kirchner should have no more than a penalty as Jane started to fall before the hit which made Kirchner change the hit slightly - nothing too bad in my view.
Anonymous July 21, 2010 3:07 pm
Yah commentary is ridiculous, calling them 'UK' referees is pretty amateur too.
Alan July 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Haha, there wasn't one UK referee involved in this game, amateur commentating.
Anonymous July 21, 2010 3:26 pm
I really dont see what all the fuss of the ranger tackle is. When youre making a shoulder charge you drop the shouler and turn in. Ranger clearly drives through the tackle upwards and opens his body.
His arms are borderline at best, but you can tell much more from the body language than the position of the arms in this case. Of course hard at full speed.
Kirchner;s is terrible, i think worth a yellow because Jane is clearly past him and its a loose arm from him regardless of whether Jane is falling, you'll never ever make a fair tackle with that technique
His arms are borderline at best, but you can tell much more from the body language than the position of the arms in this case. Of course hard at full speed.
Kirchner;s is terrible, i think worth a yellow because Jane is clearly past him and its a loose arm from him regardless of whether Jane is falling, you'll never ever make a fair tackle with that technique
Tui July 21, 2010 3:43 pm
@Benson sorry, it must be the south african blood in me that is causing my mouthyness....
lets face it, the boks stand as much chance in the tri nations now as they did against leicester, saracens, france, and ireland in the autumn tests last year!!
:)
lets face it, the boks stand as much chance in the tri nations now as they did against leicester, saracens, france, and ireland in the autumn tests last year!!
:)
NiWiTa July 21, 2010 4:18 pm
What are everyone's thoughts on the upcoming Oz v SA clash? I think it will be pretty close with SA dominating the set piece but the Oz backline counter-attacking well. With current Bok form not sure who will win.
Hey Tui - All Blacks are on song but it is a long way from the world-cup and SA haven't played like they can...hope we aren't getting over-confident bearing in mind previous losses to France for example...
In a way an unexpected trouncing might be useful reminder of how tight games can be.
Hey Tui - All Blacks are on song but it is a long way from the world-cup and SA haven't played like they can...hope we aren't getting over-confident bearing in mind previous losses to France for example...
In a way an unexpected trouncing might be useful reminder of how tight games can be.
cheyanqui July 21, 2010 4:35 pm
Ranger Hit:
his arm is hanging down so he can lead with the shoulder
If he fails to wrap, it is his own fault -- for using a technique that goes for the hit over the wrap.
If the tackler had his arms at 90 degrees (parallel to the deck), then it's clear he's trying to wrap.
We know it's not tiddly-winks, but...
by choosing a technique that maximizes hit over wrap, he should be responsible for the outcome (that he didn't wrap), so it should be a PK.
his arm is hanging down so he can lead with the shoulder
If he fails to wrap, it is his own fault -- for using a technique that goes for the hit over the wrap.
If the tackler had his arms at 90 degrees (parallel to the deck), then it's clear he's trying to wrap.
We know it's not tiddly-winks, but...
by choosing a technique that maximizes hit over wrap, he should be responsible for the outcome (that he didn't wrap), so it should be a PK.
Third Centre July 21, 2010 4:41 pm
UK referees ?! What a load of balls.
How di these lads get jobs ? Surely there must be dozens of more knowledgeable people in NZ who could do the commentating instead ?
How di these lads get jobs ? Surely there must be dozens of more knowledgeable people in NZ who could do the commentating instead ?
Anonymous July 21, 2010 4:44 pm
It looks like Rene is trying to wrap with the right arm and push with the left arm. He seems to bounce off the shoulder in the end so what Rene did with his arms didn't really matter. Not really sure what the ruling should be on that.
-KG
-KG
Anonymous July 21, 2010 4:50 pm
UK referees????
Excuse me but they are both Irish!
I think the commentator was referring to Alan Lewis (side line ref) only, thinking that he was from the UK, and then commenting in general on UK refs.
And to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of UK refs. I don't have anything against people from the UK or anything, it just seems that the current referees from the UK are not up to par with referees from the SH and other refs from the NH. Although, Romain Poite is still the worst by a long way in my opinion.
Also, not the best game for Roland, but he is usually spot on. Mark Lawrence and Roland are two of the best.
-KG
Excuse me but they are both Irish!
I think the commentator was referring to Alan Lewis (side line ref) only, thinking that he was from the UK, and then commenting in general on UK refs.
And to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of UK refs. I don't have anything against people from the UK or anything, it just seems that the current referees from the UK are not up to par with referees from the SH and other refs from the NH. Although, Romain Poite is still the worst by a long way in my opinion.
Also, not the best game for Roland, but he is usually spot on. Mark Lawrence and Roland are two of the best.
-KG
Anonymous July 21, 2010 5:15 pm
1st -- This sounds weird, but I think Ranger hit him so bloody hard he didn't have the opportunity to wrap. Penalty at best, correct call on the field.
2nd -- Kirchner's hit was far worse, easily could have been yellow, that looks like clear yellow card to me.
Anyone else see O'Connor running his mouth about the upcoming SA clash? Laughable. Australia hasnt done anything the last 2 years, yet this kid is running his mouth ahead of a clash with Habana. Maybe Ranger can work his magic again when the ABs get the Aussies in 2 weeks.
2nd -- Kirchner's hit was far worse, easily could have been yellow, that looks like clear yellow card to me.
Anyone else see O'Connor running his mouth about the upcoming SA clash? Laughable. Australia hasnt done anything the last 2 years, yet this kid is running his mouth ahead of a clash with Habana. Maybe Ranger can work his magic again when the ABs get the Aussies in 2 weeks.
Anonymous July 21, 2010 5:48 pm
yep that Uk referees really annoys me ... get with the times New zealand commentators they are Irish not from the U K
Anonymous July 21, 2010 6:26 pm
The Rene Ranger hit was illegal by the rule of the law. He didn't make any real attempt to wrap, he straightened his arm up to make it appear as if he wanted to wrap. Though anyone who's ever played in their life will notice that immediately.
However. The wrapping rule is stupid anyway. So players should ignore it.
However. The wrapping rule is stupid anyway. So players should ignore it.
Anonymous July 21, 2010 6:30 pm
first one is legal. 2nd not. to say it is illegal because he lent in with the shoulder first is rediculous, because every tackle requires you to put your shoulder in first. His arms were coming in secondly but the power of the shoulder bounced the player. the tackler was upright in the tackle as well so less damage was going to be done.
EARugbyFan July 21, 2010 6:37 pm
The first one, Technically, should be a penalty, but not more.
MY REASONING: He was already off his feet and the momentum of the initial shoulder contact sent him hurtling back and thus did not allow the tackler to complete the tackle by executing a wrap.
In my playing days, this happened to me many times, typically with light footed, skipping, twinkle toe runners focused on an off load instead of a forward tilted run.
Second Tackle, should NOT have been a penalty.
MY REASONING: Anytime a runner cuts into the inner shoulder of an approaching tackler and slips his height is dramatically lowered.
At this point, the oncoming tackler has all but committed to a tackle and ends up in contact the runners neck, where his torso was supposed to be.
I have been a victim of this several times, especially with short wingers who try to "duck" when they cut in.
I am of fairly average height.
MY REASONING: He was already off his feet and the momentum of the initial shoulder contact sent him hurtling back and thus did not allow the tackler to complete the tackle by executing a wrap.
In my playing days, this happened to me many times, typically with light footed, skipping, twinkle toe runners focused on an off load instead of a forward tilted run.
Second Tackle, should NOT have been a penalty.
MY REASONING: Anytime a runner cuts into the inner shoulder of an approaching tackler and slips his height is dramatically lowered.
At this point, the oncoming tackler has all but committed to a tackle and ends up in contact the runners neck, where his torso was supposed to be.
I have been a victim of this several times, especially with short wingers who try to "duck" when they cut in.
I am of fairly average height.
Anonymous July 21, 2010 8:03 pm
I feel like Kirchner's hit on Jane was no different from the Carter's hit on that Welsh player (forgot which one) last year.
Anonymous July 21, 2010 8:09 pm
What do they mean by UK refs? I know they are Irish and they made a mistake but what point were they actually trying to make? That UK refs are too fussy?
Anonymous July 21, 2010 8:09 pm
What do they mean by UK refs? I know they are Irish and they made a mistake but what point were they actually trying to make? That UK refs are too fussy?
miguel July 21, 2010 9:36 pm
two penalties. nothing more needed but if yellow cards were shown they would be harsh but understandable.
both tackles are borderline penalities in that slight differences would make them legal. if ranger had just gotten a hand higher and around more it would have been legal and if kirchner's arm had been lower and stayed ther it would have been legal.
both tackles are borderline penalities in that slight differences would make them legal. if ranger had just gotten a hand higher and around more it would have been legal and if kirchner's arm had been lower and stayed ther it would have been legal.
Dan July 21, 2010 10:32 pm
folks commenting about the "UK Ref" referance, did you never take geography? Ireland is a part of the UK. Go look and a map or a globe. Jesus H. And if you think Grant Fox is a poor commentator, listen to the game when SA announcer Stekman(SP?) call it. Bias as all can be.
rhyminbro July 21, 2010 10:55 pm
Who cares if the commentators called them UK refs and they're really irish. Same shit different bucket.
I hate the wrap rule. It produces so much pedantic bullshit they should get rid of it. Funny to see that saffa assistant coach moaning.
I hate the wrap rule. It produces so much pedantic bullshit they should get rid of it. Funny to see that saffa assistant coach moaning.
Anonymous July 22, 2010 12:35 am
As a kiwi I' d have to agree about our commentators, they are embarrassing sometimes. Murray Mexted in particular should be fired, preferably from a canon, and preferably into deep space.
Bill July 22, 2010 12:39 am
It seems like in the NH they see shoulder charges where we don't down south.
The rule was designed to stop players tucking their arms up and runnign in sidways, using the point of the shoulder that way.
The rule states that a player only has to try and involve his arms in the tackle, they must make an attempt to grasp the player.
This rule is stupid, as every tackler worth his salt uses his shoulder in the tackle first and then wraps the arms.
In this case he executed a perfect hit, so well that he had no time to bring his arms round.
What it means is that players are getting punished for putting on good hits, like they are trained to do.
If he hadn't hit him so well and Kirchner hadn't been running forward so quickly, and if he hadn't been getting tackled around his legs as well, Ranger could have done exaclty the same action, Kirchner wouldn't have gone flying abckwards, so Ranger would have had time to get the arms round him and the ref wouldn't have seen a shoulder charge where there wasn't one.
It's a dumb rule and should be removed.
For the record shoulder charges aren't particularly dangerous, anyone who's played or watched league knows that.
The rule was designed to stop players tucking their arms up and runnign in sidways, using the point of the shoulder that way.
The rule states that a player only has to try and involve his arms in the tackle, they must make an attempt to grasp the player.
This rule is stupid, as every tackler worth his salt uses his shoulder in the tackle first and then wraps the arms.
In this case he executed a perfect hit, so well that he had no time to bring his arms round.
What it means is that players are getting punished for putting on good hits, like they are trained to do.
If he hadn't hit him so well and Kirchner hadn't been running forward so quickly, and if he hadn't been getting tackled around his legs as well, Ranger could have done exaclty the same action, Kirchner wouldn't have gone flying abckwards, so Ranger would have had time to get the arms round him and the ref wouldn't have seen a shoulder charge where there wasn't one.
It's a dumb rule and should be removed.
For the record shoulder charges aren't particularly dangerous, anyone who's played or watched league knows that.
Alexander July 22, 2010 12:43 am
Dan Dan DAN. Honestly, Ireland a part of the UK, based on GEOGRAPHY. The commentators and now yourself are making NZers seem very ignorant. See:
http://www.map-of-uk.com/
Notice how the focus is on Northern Ireland as being a part of the UK....NOT IRELAND!!
http://www.map-of-uk.com/
Notice how the focus is on Northern Ireland as being a part of the UK....NOT IRELAND!!
The Truth July 22, 2010 6:48 am
@Bensen you managed 3 wins against the AB's last year and then basically crowned yourself a rugby dynasty. Who should get over themselves little fella? The AB's have been dominating the Bok for decades... When you can string 2 years of results together, then we will listen. 2009 was optimistic winning, you stumbled across a kicker (Steyn) and then realised if he kicked it high enough, you had a chance. PATHETIC
Anonymous July 22, 2010 7:02 am
Kirchner is shithouse, but I rate him above Fran Steyn (all that mummy's boy could do was kick).
Maybe the Bok would like to borrow an AB fb? we have too many :-)
Maybe the Bok would like to borrow an AB fb? we have too many :-)
Jimmy July 22, 2010 7:04 am
Kirchner's tackle was dangerous. We have to remember though that in any given game of rugby, tempers can easily flare. In the light of day Kirch himself would admit that he lost it. No excuse but it gives a little more context.
Maximus July 22, 2010 7:16 am
Didn't Ranger hit Kirchner right on the ball? It could explain why they both bounce off like this, why Kirchner isn't even a bit stunned by the impact and why the hit might look a little more violent (and illegal) than what it really is.
BrisbaneBok July 22, 2010 7:44 am
@Anonymous - Kirchner better than Frans Steyn? lol I guess you were too scarred by the long range penalties to remember his strong aggressive running. My favourite being when he had 3 AB's hanging off him as he run 20m upfield as the hooter sounded for a famous victory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcx5QoFM4-Y
View Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcx5QoFM4-Y
View Video
Benson July 22, 2010 8:08 am
@ The Truth, a rugby dynasty? When did I ever say that?
Good to see the cockiness coming out from the Kiwi boys now that they're winning again.
Good to see the cockiness coming out from the Kiwi boys now that they're winning again.
Nick July 22, 2010 8:29 am
I wouldn't worry about Steyn too much, since his move to Racing Metro it looks like he's been enjoying a bit too much french cuisine (or Steencamp is going to get some competition).
First tackle is fine, I think the officials saw the way he went down and pinged it. The second is high, admittedly because Jane changes direction and ducks. It's probably a penalty but wasn't particularly malicious.
Lets not get all upset about the UK refs comment. It basically implies 'NH but not french'. As with all regions there are slightly different reffing styles. So the S14, is different to the T14 etc. but the UK and Ireland comps overlap, so does the reffing style. They do get a bit hasty in pinging good tackles. It's the effect of having the raa raa's at the top of the unions.
It's the sort of thing that annoys Stuart Barnes. As far as Im concerned if it annoys him it's fine with me. I'd rather listen to these guys commentate any day of the week.
First tackle is fine, I think the officials saw the way he went down and pinged it. The second is high, admittedly because Jane changes direction and ducks. It's probably a penalty but wasn't particularly malicious.
Lets not get all upset about the UK refs comment. It basically implies 'NH but not french'. As with all regions there are slightly different reffing styles. So the S14, is different to the T14 etc. but the UK and Ireland comps overlap, so does the reffing style. They do get a bit hasty in pinging good tackles. It's the effect of having the raa raa's at the top of the unions.
It's the sort of thing that annoys Stuart Barnes. As far as Im concerned if it annoys him it's fine with me. I'd rather listen to these guys commentate any day of the week.
Anrowa July 22, 2010 8:56 am
HAHA - fire Mexted into space - first ape to Mars. He's a more entertaining commentator than the Saffa guys. We always take it so seriously. Kiwi comm's are seriously biased though - "I think the replay shows that tackle was perfectly legit" Rubbish - no arms=penalty. Wasn't high, so no yellow. Kirschner - high - penalty, not deliberate - no yellow.
As for Kirschner being a Bok - WTF. Gio Aplon should be fullback, Hougard on the wing with Habana.
As for Kirschner being a Bok - WTF. Gio Aplon should be fullback, Hougard on the wing with Habana.
Al Ninja July 22, 2010 9:09 am
Irish lads, it was a slip of the tongue... Not everything is a slight on your fair nation...
Christ, he could have said "ref's from the British isles"... Now then it would have REALLY kicked off!
Christ, he could have said "ref's from the British isles"... Now then it would have REALLY kicked off!
Anonymous July 22, 2010 9:32 am
Nothing wrong with rangers hit.. Can't believe how many people are whinging about biased commentary!! Did you hear the south african commentators?!
Laz July 22, 2010 10:08 am
Look at his arms, of course there's something wrong with it. There's absolutely no attempt to wrap his right arm there whatsover. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. You try tackle like that and you'll find you're using your shoulder.
He was penalised for it, so should have been carded considering what Rossouw was carded for - handbags.
Silly UK refs.. ;)
He was penalised for it, so should have been carded considering what Rossouw was carded for - handbags.
Silly UK refs.. ;)
Anonymous July 22, 2010 10:17 am
rangers hit was good and legal, the rule states you must make an attempt to wrap, when players bounce off each other so quickly it makes it hard to get your arms up, plus he hit him more with the chest than the shoulder. kirchner hit him while he was falling so nothing too bad with that, but if your gonna ping ranger then kirchner should have been pinged aswell. the way the abs are playing i think supporters have a right to be excited, they outplayed the boks in every facet of the game. plus even after loosing those games at the end of last year bok supporters were still calling their side the best team ever.
Anonymous July 22, 2010 10:25 am
"You try tackle like that and you'll find you're using your shoulder"
Wow.. so your saying wrap then hit? No, thats not how you tackle, you hit with the shoulder then wrap, he did wrap with his left arm and you can see him lift his right arm to attempt to wrap..
Wow.. so your saying wrap then hit? No, thats not how you tackle, you hit with the shoulder then wrap, he did wrap with his left arm and you can see him lift his right arm to attempt to wrap..
Anonymous July 22, 2010 10:58 am
about springbok selections- how about schalk brits. he has been amazing for the saracens and he was voted Players' Player of the year in the 2009/2010 season.
Anonymous July 22, 2010 11:26 am
Hang on, is the 'kiwi' commentator not just from an outpost of Australia?!
vinniechan July 22, 2010 12:06 pm
The first one is not a shoulder charge but a rather unlucky attempt for a gang tackle. You can't do anything about the carrier bouncing off 3 feet in contact. It just looked bad and to be fair there's no way the referee would get it right.
The second looks like a high tackle to me tho not a malicious one. A penalty should suffice.
The second looks like a high tackle to me tho not a malicious one. A penalty should suffice.
Bayonne Bombers July 22, 2010 1:00 pm
Look closely at the Ranger hit and you can see he actually hits the ball which makes Kirchner bounce back and exaggerates the impact.
It is clearly a shoulder charge since his arms never come around Kirchner but a Yellow might have been harsh as Ranger never could get his arms around because Kirchner bounces back so quickly.
The kirchner tackle was high but also partly caused by Jain cutting back inside and ducking.
Both the SA and NZ commentators are biased but not quite as bad as the AUSSIE ones normally are.
Ireland is not in the UK, end of story.
Both Refs are world class and if they dont enforce the wrap rule then we may as well put helmets and pads on the players and call it American Football.
It is clearly a shoulder charge since his arms never come around Kirchner but a Yellow might have been harsh as Ranger never could get his arms around because Kirchner bounces back so quickly.
The kirchner tackle was high but also partly caused by Jain cutting back inside and ducking.
Both the SA and NZ commentators are biased but not quite as bad as the AUSSIE ones normally are.
Ireland is not in the UK, end of story.
Both Refs are world class and if they dont enforce the wrap rule then we may as well put helmets and pads on the players and call it American Football.
Tim July 22, 2010 1:01 pm
Does no-one else see the irony?
1) Half of you are bitching about Ranger not wrapping properly (which is not required anyway), and the other half are bitching about Kirchner wrapping is arm a little too well.
2) The comment about the UK refs was about them being overly-pedantic, much like all the people up in arms about it.
Hilarious.
It all takes the attention of the fact that South Africa is playing rubbish rugby at the moment, and PDV is hiding being acusations of bias and cheating. There must be a better coach in SA somewhere?
1) Half of you are bitching about Ranger not wrapping properly (which is not required anyway), and the other half are bitching about Kirchner wrapping is arm a little too well.
2) The comment about the UK refs was about them being overly-pedantic, much like all the people up in arms about it.
Hilarious.
It all takes the attention of the fact that South Africa is playing rubbish rugby at the moment, and PDV is hiding being acusations of bias and cheating. There must be a better coach in SA somewhere?
NiWiTa July 22, 2010 1:36 pm
Hi Tim,
Fair point on PDV - the talent is there amongst the players but the style of play undermines the talent. As an England fan where we have less talent then SA and a bad coach I am of course happy (we might not lose too badly when we play them next).
So who should replace PDV? I haven't a scoobie on the coachs best placed to come in...
Fair point on PDV - the talent is there amongst the players but the style of play undermines the talent. As an England fan where we have less talent then SA and a bad coach I am of course happy (we might not lose too badly when we play them next).
So who should replace PDV? I haven't a scoobie on the coachs best placed to come in...
John F July 22, 2010 2:50 pm
Loved the joke about the UK linesmen. Sorry but that first hit was a good example of sticking your arms out not being the same thing as making an attempt to wrap. This isn't about being macho or not, it was not a legal hit. Why take the piss out of refs and linesmen who know the laws and can recognise when a genuine attempt to tackle, not to hit with arms held out, hasn't been made?
Jono July 22, 2010 10:57 pm
Players are getting penalised for tackling well.
Ranger's hit was perfectly executed, so well that Kirchner went flying backwards.
His arms come round but there's no one there to grab hold of, Kirchner's already gone backwards.
Once again for all those people (seems like millions of them) who don't know the rule, you don't have to wrap, you just have to make an attempt to get the arms round.
It's a retarded rule anyway, anyone who plays and knows how to tackle leads with the shoulder, the arms are usually not consequential to the tackle.
Almost every single tackle is a guy charging in and hitting with the shoulder.
League shows that the shoulder charge rule is stupid and soft as shite.
Ranger's hit was perfectly executed, so well that Kirchner went flying backwards.
His arms come round but there's no one there to grab hold of, Kirchner's already gone backwards.
Once again for all those people (seems like millions of them) who don't know the rule, you don't have to wrap, you just have to make an attempt to get the arms round.
It's a retarded rule anyway, anyone who plays and knows how to tackle leads with the shoulder, the arms are usually not consequential to the tackle.
Almost every single tackle is a guy charging in and hitting with the shoulder.
League shows that the shoulder charge rule is stupid and soft as shite.
Anonymous July 23, 2010 1:01 am
Well its clear to see that most of you that claim Rangers tackle to be perfect and legal are just gym monkeys that love the big contact. And you can tell hes going for a deliberate shoulder charge because of his posture, high, slightly turned, leading with the point of his shoulder.
jono July 23, 2010 3:38 am
Yeah I'm either a gym monkey or just someone who plays bloody rugby and enjoys it.
I know how to tackle, you hit with your shoulder and then fling the arms around if you can.
And of course I love the contact, I'm a fucking rugby player mate, what do you do?
I know how to tackle, you hit with your shoulder and then fling the arms around if you can.
And of course I love the contact, I'm a fucking rugby player mate, what do you do?
Vic July 23, 2010 4:07 am
The Ranger tackle He brings his left arm around Kirchner's hip as his shoulder hits (but obviously not high as the touchy wrongly suggest), his right arm is across the arm of the other tackler who has hold of Kirchner's leg. It's a close call but it's legal. The commentators are dead right.
UK?, big deal, how many of those complaining about the UK call would have the faintest idea about the geopolitical niceties in most of the rest of the world. The point is that, let's call them GB&Ir touch judges, are way too quick to get involved, and they're too often wrong as in this case.
The Kirchner tackle He makes no attempt to wrap in any way but comes in with a swinging arm probably intended for Cory Jane's chest. Jane is falling slightly and the arm hits his throat. Not necessarily a yellow, (benefit of the doubt accidental) but it's a penalty any day of the week
This is the stuff that makes you laugh when the SA fans go on about what a bad deal they get from refs.
UK?, big deal, how many of those complaining about the UK call would have the faintest idea about the geopolitical niceties in most of the rest of the world. The point is that, let's call them GB&Ir touch judges, are way too quick to get involved, and they're too often wrong as in this case.
The Kirchner tackle He makes no attempt to wrap in any way but comes in with a swinging arm probably intended for Cory Jane's chest. Jane is falling slightly and the arm hits his throat. Not necessarily a yellow, (benefit of the doubt accidental) but it's a penalty any day of the week
This is the stuff that makes you laugh when the SA fans go on about what a bad deal they get from refs.
Bill July 23, 2010 4:35 am
"about springbok selections- how about schalk brits. he has been amazing for the saracens and he was voted Players' Player of the year in the 2009/2010 season."
He doesn't play in a good enough competition. If he played in the S14 he'd merely be a decent hooker, not world class.
Look who he's got in front of him, the captain Smit and Du Plessis as well.
The Boks tried playing Euro based players against Wales, and they were off the pace. They won't waste their time with that again.
He doesn't play in a good enough competition. If he played in the S14 he'd merely be a decent hooker, not world class.
Look who he's got in front of him, the captain Smit and Du Plessis as well.
The Boks tried playing Euro based players against Wales, and they were off the pace. They won't waste their time with that again.
Paolo July 23, 2010 8:21 am
Schalk Brits doesn't play in a "good enough" competition to make the SA team
Is that right Bill?
Would that be the same Schalk Brits who plays for Saracens? The same Saracens who despite playing in a "not good enough" competition managed to beat a Springbok team last year?
And would that same "not good enough" competition be the one that Leicester play in? And diddn't Leicester also beat a Springbok team last year?
And Bill, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Springbok team not only your national side (although not your strongest one) but also composed of players who do play in the S14?
Dear me Bill, what an utter load of tripe you write
Is that right Bill?
Would that be the same Schalk Brits who plays for Saracens? The same Saracens who despite playing in a "not good enough" competition managed to beat a Springbok team last year?
And would that same "not good enough" competition be the one that Leicester play in? And diddn't Leicester also beat a Springbok team last year?
And Bill, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Springbok team not only your national side (although not your strongest one) but also composed of players who do play in the S14?
Dear me Bill, what an utter load of tripe you write
Anonymous July 23, 2010 11:13 am
'Well its clear to see that most of you that claim Rangers tackle to be perfect and legal are just gym monkeys that love the big contact. And you can tell hes going for a deliberate shoulder charge because of his posture, high, slightly turned, leading with the point of his shoulder.'
If you don't like the contact element of sport, check out football it should be right up your street. Those guys fall over and cry without any contact.
If you don't like the contact element of sport, check out football it should be right up your street. Those guys fall over and cry without any contact.
(u-p)rick July 23, 2010 11:17 am
geez, im all for the rules, which is why i play to them... all of you commenting on tackling make it sound very weak...
there are two processes, tackle with the shoulder and remain standing.....or tackle with the shoulder and go down with the ball carrier....if you find yourself going down with the ball carrier, referees rarely comment on the tackle technique, if you stand over the guy and say, haha look i just flattened him, it normally means you havent wrapped.... = penalty...
its not hard...the fact is, if someone is running hard, the only way you can stop them, or drive them back, is if you hit with the shoulder first...wrapping up someones legs means they 'fall' forward....and if its on a try line then they gain yards....
so to all those claiming its 'gym monkey rules' you need to look at your tackling techniques...
there are two processes, tackle with the shoulder and remain standing.....or tackle with the shoulder and go down with the ball carrier....if you find yourself going down with the ball carrier, referees rarely comment on the tackle technique, if you stand over the guy and say, haha look i just flattened him, it normally means you havent wrapped.... = penalty...
its not hard...the fact is, if someone is running hard, the only way you can stop them, or drive them back, is if you hit with the shoulder first...wrapping up someones legs means they 'fall' forward....and if its on a try line then they gain yards....
so to all those claiming its 'gym monkey rules' you need to look at your tackling techniques...
NiWiTa July 23, 2010 12:59 pm
Nice one Paolo...made me laugh. Bill chillax mate Schalk is still from South Africa so you are allowed to rate him!
Les Bleus July 23, 2010 5:13 pm
Kirchner cant tackle.
Watch Dagg's try..
Neither can Schalk Burger, Pierre Spies and Gio Aplon by that logic.
Watch Dagg's try..
Neither can Schalk Burger, Pierre Spies and Gio Aplon by that logic.
Les Bleus July 23, 2010 5:16 pm
Tim, yes there is a better coach, the Bulls coach.
Les Bleus July 23, 2010 5:19 pm
Alexander, look at the South African commentary, they are just as biased, demanding a yellow card for Rene Rangers tackle.
Don't bring bullshit to the game, everyone is bias in some way.
Don't bring bullshit to the game, everyone is bias in some way.
Scotsdale July 23, 2010 5:24 pm
@ Les Bleus, do you even know the name of the Bulls coach? Do you remember that he was absolutely useless with the Cat, to the point of him being fired from there? Just goes to show how a group of players can make a coach look good.
I think you'll find Heyneke Meyer is still the next best option to coach SA. Or, get Mallet back.
I think you'll find Heyneke Meyer is still the next best option to coach SA. Or, get Mallet back.
Anonymous July 24, 2010 12:38 am
1ST ONE IS A SHOULDER CHARGE-ILLEGAL
2ND IS HIGH BUT THE PLAYER WAS FALLING SO IT WASNT INTENTIONAL-LEGAL
2ND IS HIGH BUT THE PLAYER WAS FALLING SO IT WASNT INTENTIONAL-LEGAL
Anonymous July 24, 2010 2:11 am
yeah agree mexted is a bloody idiot but the rest are pretty good i think. considering most of these guys haveformerly represented their country youd have to expect a little bit of bias but as commentators go i think the kiwi ones arnt that bad. if you want bias have a listen to the aussie commentators when phil kearns or brendan cannon are calling, they dont even make an attempt to be impartial.
Anonymous July 24, 2010 11:58 am
zane douchna is such a joke
last year we had enough world class players to make up for the ape coach, this year thats not the case
last year we had enough world class players to make up for the ape coach, this year thats not the case
Anonymous July 24, 2010 1:34 pm
the rule is that you must make an attempt to wrap which ranger clearly does, from the first view you clearly see his right arm coming around and from the second view you can see is left arm going for the wrap. the jane one was a penalty, kirschner clearly got him around the neck.
Bill July 26, 2010 12:28 am
I'm not South African, and the English premiership isn;t a high enough standard to judge a player.
I'm sure Britts is very good in that competition, but in the S14 he'd be merely a decent player, not good enough to grab a starting spot in the South african side.
His fitness would need to improve, as well as his speed of thought in terms of passing and running.
I'm sure Britts is very good in that competition, but in the S14 he'd be merely a decent player, not good enough to grab a starting spot in the South african side.
His fitness would need to improve, as well as his speed of thought in terms of passing and running.
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