Sunday, November 21, 2010
Dan Parks and Scotland upset the Springboks at Murrayfield
After being hammered by New Zealand the week before, a bruised Scotland shouldnt have been too tricky for the Springboks, but tactical naivet and poor execution proved their downfall as they were beaten at Murrayfield for the first time since a similar performance in 2002.
There was no Plan B, and as has become fairly common under the reign of Peter De Villiers, a one dimensional Plan A. "These conditions level everything out but well done to Scotland," said an unhappy Victor Matfield. "Everyone wants us to play more expansive, but with the weather the way it was it didn't allow us to.
"You can't play a lot of rugby, so it was all about the guys making the least mistakes and putting the other team under pressure," he said.
They did manage to score the only try of the game, through Willem Alberts, but it was Dan Parks who took control and scored all of Scotlands 21 points which included six penalties and a drop goal. Coach Andy Robinson was thrilled with the result.
"We're hugely delighted with the victory. This victory is achieved by the players and the mindset they've brought into the week that they're able to take on anybody."
"I think a number of young players have come of age," said Robinson. "I thought Richie Gray really stepped up, particularly when Scott MacLeod went off. The pressure he put on the South African lineout, his defensive work and the hits he put in, but also some of his ball carries."
Springbok coach De Villiers was naturally disappointed and cited the weather and a few key calls by Stuart Dickinson as some of the reasons for the loss. "Scotland made use of it much better than us on the night, so well done to them," he said, referring to the constant downpour.
"The momentum at the beginning was with us and we were quite comfortable but we were nailed for a few things on our ball and it gave them a lift. Some of the refereeing decisions were puzzling, however we did not respond the way we should have done," he added.
Giant killers Scotland did the same thing to Australia last year in similar conditions.
:: Related Posts ::
Scotland The Brave upset the Wallabies at Murrayfield
Time:
06:05
Scotland The Brave upset the Wallabies at Murrayfield
Posted at 12:58 pm | 62 comments
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Viewing 62 comments
Anonymous November 21, 2010 12:57 pm
Go go the South African white wash! . . . .oh . . .
Sam November 21, 2010 1:27 pm
SA looked lost at times. never seemed to have much of a plan in place. credit to scotland though a good result for them
Anonymous November 21, 2010 1:30 pm
why does it say "Scotland the brave upset the WALLABIES" at the bottom of the screen?
Anonymous November 21, 2010 1:31 pm
Nice to see a report that wasn't obsessed with the crowd numbers as the UK press seem to focus on.
Great win, playing both the conditions and ref.
Thats 2 of the 3 from the Tri-Nations
Great win, playing both the conditions and ref.
Thats 2 of the 3 from the Tri-Nations
Laz November 21, 2010 1:49 pm
Anonymous said...
"why does it say "Scotland the brave upset the WALLABIES" at the bottom of the screen?"
Can't you read the line above it??
Nice win for Scotland. Boring game though! Springboks looked clueless
"why does it say "Scotland the brave upset the WALLABIES" at the bottom of the screen?"
Can't you read the line above it??
Nice win for Scotland. Boring game though! Springboks looked clueless
Anonymous November 21, 2010 1:50 pm
To Anon, it's a related post - a post that relates to the one you have just watched. It's the win that Scotland had over Australia 9 - 8 if I remember correctly
Anonymous November 21, 2010 2:04 pm
Springbok rugby in turning into a farce.
Doc Craven must be turning in his grave :(
Doc Craven must be turning in his grave :(
bloodfya November 21, 2010 2:08 pm
i am very glad as a south african supporter to loose to the better team on the day. Since it was scotland that makes the decisions about our beloved coach's future more promissing. (goodbye pdv.) with all the nonsense politics in sa rugby i would much rather have the stormers coach be the head coach as a defensive structure is top notch as well as the style of counter attack. Good on scotland for pulling out a win and a good learning point for SA, (just because NZ did it does not mean you can do it) we have fallen far from our previous # 1 spot just 1 year ago, and irraspective of injuries we sustained, the "depth" we were supposed to have is just not there in some key possitions. ( fullback for one, if matfield or botha get injured there are not too many locks to take their place.) without dupreez at scrumhalf the vision that he brings and more clinical approach for all field conditions is greatly missed.
I guess from her there is only one way we can go, this is almost a rock bottom. the point is not to fall behind every game and always play catch up.
I guess from her there is only one way we can go, this is almost a rock bottom. the point is not to fall behind every game and always play catch up.
Mike November 21, 2010 2:24 pm
Southern Hemisphere clean sweep - FAIL. I presume the anonymous clowns who were predicting that there would be an SH clean sweep won't be reading this, so I'll just say respect to our intelligent SH posters and I understand that every group of people has a few clowns that always embarrass them.
Huh!! the 3rd November 21, 2010 3:42 pm
Because of the shellicking I got when I brought up Bismark's stamp on Buckley. Here's 'somewhat' of a defense of him.
At exactly 53.00 on the clock, in the top left corner of the screen, a Scotish player (wasn't really following game so don't know who, might've been wearing a scrumcap) clearly throws and connects 3/4 punches at BdP' head. Funnily, I joked out loud when Bismark hit the ruck that something will happen (in reference to me calling him a scumbag) so I was watching what would happen. When the ball left and went across, the wide shot caught it in the background.
It was handbags, but swings and roundabouts and all.
Terrible game, but I don't think Scotish fans care.
Boks need a long break. Its clearly visible they've been running on reserves for a while (still beat Ire and Wales so shows how potent they can be at half tilt).
At exactly 53.00 on the clock, in the top left corner of the screen, a Scotish player (wasn't really following game so don't know who, might've been wearing a scrumcap) clearly throws and connects 3/4 punches at BdP' head. Funnily, I joked out loud when Bismark hit the ruck that something will happen (in reference to me calling him a scumbag) so I was watching what would happen. When the ball left and went across, the wide shot caught it in the background.
It was handbags, but swings and roundabouts and all.
Terrible game, but I don't think Scotish fans care.
Boks need a long break. Its clearly visible they've been running on reserves for a while (still beat Ire and Wales so shows how potent they can be at half tilt).
Anonymous November 21, 2010 3:43 pm
SACK PDV PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anonymous November 21, 2010 3:55 pm
Why so much emphasis on conditions? That South African performance was so poor they'd have been beaten by anyone in glorious sunshine let alone Scotland.
Maybe they're feeling the effects of playing without their banned substances?
Maybe they're feeling the effects of playing without their banned substances?
Juggernauter November 21, 2010 4:17 pm
Awesome stuff. Scotland tackled everything that moved and the Springboks had no plan B, Peter de Villiers hadn't thought that far ahead (surprise!).
Patrick Lambie seemed to be as nervous as hell both times he hit the pitch these internationals, maybe he just isn't ready. And Vernon showed great things. Scotland are now rich in back row options with Strokosch, Barkley, Brown, Vernon, Taylor, Beattie... Bring it on!
I wonder why the international tours are always played in each hemisphere's autumn/winter season... Why don't the NH teams tour now to the SH and in June the NH teams host the SH teams? That way it'd always be sunny and this would enhance running rugby. Maybe it has something to do with the domestic seasons, dunno...
Patrick Lambie seemed to be as nervous as hell both times he hit the pitch these internationals, maybe he just isn't ready. And Vernon showed great things. Scotland are now rich in back row options with Strokosch, Barkley, Brown, Vernon, Taylor, Beattie... Bring it on!
I wonder why the international tours are always played in each hemisphere's autumn/winter season... Why don't the NH teams tour now to the SH and in June the NH teams host the SH teams? That way it'd always be sunny and this would enhance running rugby. Maybe it has something to do with the domestic seasons, dunno...
Benson November 21, 2010 5:28 pm
Not sure why PDV brought Lambie on in a tight match that could obviously come down to kicking. It shows one of two things: stupidity, or an honest way of showing that his priority is the world cup and he wants the young guys to get game time.
About the conditions, of course SA played like they did because of the rain. But why not have more confidence in their hands/backs? Really disappointing. Poor poor game.
Congrats to the Scots.
About the conditions, of course SA played like they did because of the rain. But why not have more confidence in their hands/backs? Really disappointing. Poor poor game.
Congrats to the Scots.
Anonymous November 21, 2010 6:22 pm
great win for scotland, wasn't too exciting but it was better than the France V Argentina game, gosh that was a snorefest!
TheScarletBeast November 21, 2010 9:18 pm
Fistly congrats to Scotland. Not to sound like a douche or take anything away from Scotland, but South Africa should not have lost to Scotland even with a second string team. I say this cause they showed that they could beat better teams with a second string team. Dont think this will change anything in SAs coaching team. PdV is a political apointment SARU will come up with some bull that its to close to the RWC to change the coach now. Goodluck against England, but I dont see us winning seeing that our confidence has taken a knock.
Matt November 21, 2010 9:35 pm
Well done Scotland!
Would be great if you could have a re-match against our All Blacks next week, how much of a different story would that be!
Lov'n the navy blue and white shorts outfit too. Don't know about England and Wales' all blue outfits...?
Would be great if you could have a re-match against our All Blacks next week, how much of a different story would that be!
Lov'n the navy blue and white shorts outfit too. Don't know about England and Wales' all blue outfits...?
Tommo November 21, 2010 9:38 pm
Bye bye PdV. I hope! This might have been the best thing to happen to South African rugby in a while. Lets hope the poms give us a damn good hiding next weekend and send P Divvy and his two retard accomplices packing.
In other news, this was one of the shittest games of rugby I have ever seen. No wonder the Scots are all alcoholics with Murrayfield serving up dirge like this!
In other news, this was one of the shittest games of rugby I have ever seen. No wonder the Scots are all alcoholics with Murrayfield serving up dirge like this!
Anonymous November 21, 2010 10:16 pm
@ Mike. How many games have been played SH vs NH this month?
And NH have won 2, wow. Great achievement.
NH rugby is still shithouse.
Don't deny it mike, just live with it. ;-)
And NH have won 2, wow. Great achievement.
NH rugby is still shithouse.
Don't deny it mike, just live with it. ;-)
(u-p)rick November 21, 2010 10:17 pm
my my tommo you sound a little sour,....
I watched the gasme with the hope the scottish underdogs would have a close game...i was shocked that they won!! but i must admit i was very pleased!
in terms of the saffa's i must admit some very harsh reffing decisions...especially the 'coming off the feet call' against the saffa 7....very dubious...looked like standard rucking to me...
But, they looked so lost...no one really seemed to want anything....
the weather did not help either team, but as the scottish captain said they werent favourable conditions but they were probably more familiar to the scot team..
'No wonder the Scots are all alcoholics' quite mis-informed, i do believe it is those from glascow which have a reputation for being alcoholics...
Kirchner looked good for SA
I watched the gasme with the hope the scottish underdogs would have a close game...i was shocked that they won!! but i must admit i was very pleased!
in terms of the saffa's i must admit some very harsh reffing decisions...especially the 'coming off the feet call' against the saffa 7....very dubious...looked like standard rucking to me...
But, they looked so lost...no one really seemed to want anything....
the weather did not help either team, but as the scottish captain said they werent favourable conditions but they were probably more familiar to the scot team..
'No wonder the Scots are all alcoholics' quite mis-informed, i do believe it is those from glascow which have a reputation for being alcoholics...
Kirchner looked good for SA
Bow to the South November 21, 2010 10:21 pm
@ Matt, yea your right... A rematch would be a great thing to see. Maybe the AB's could put 100 points on them.... LMAO.
Beating a SA experimental team is one thing... Beating the Allblacks is something totally different.
On less of a Joke, Fran Steyn didn't seem to be running with the same Venom he once did. That's disappointing as he is definitely one of my fav players when hes on song.
Beating a SA experimental team is one thing... Beating the Allblacks is something totally different.
On less of a Joke, Fran Steyn didn't seem to be running with the same Venom he once did. That's disappointing as he is definitely one of my fav players when hes on song.
Third Centre November 21, 2010 10:23 pm
Congratulations to Scotland. Yo guys are the most horrible team to play against...and i mean that as a compliment!!!
However some of the gloating on here by me fellow northern hemispherianites is embarrassing...
However some of the gloating on here by me fellow northern hemispherianites is embarrassing...
Scotsdale November 21, 2010 10:38 pm
Terrible terrible game of rugby, but Scotland got another win over a 'big 3' side, albeit in hellish weather and without scoring a try.
Yes, I say that with a touch of bitterness. Because I'm pissed off. Pissed off at how f*ckin useless the Boks were. In fact not only pissed off, but embarrassed. Even with awful weather and Stu Dick doing what he does best, we could have and SHOULD have played much better than that.
It was atrocious, and its about time that big changes are made. I would get rid of Dick Muir for one, and can only pray that random doping tests are done on the coaching staff - anyone seen PDV's eyes lately?
Even with a pathetic strategy, there are leaders out there who should be making better decisions and executing play with better ability.
I'll say congrats to Dan Parks for kicking so well in the rain and to the Scottish forwards, but that really was a performance on a par to 2002, when we last lost to Scotland. It was worse in fact, even though it was a closer game than that time.
For me there was probably only one positive to come out of the game - Chillyboy Ralepele wasn't on the field!
Bitching aside, great spirit shown by the Scots. Congratulations to them, and to all those fans who turned out in the cold and rain a week after getting their arses handed to them.
Dejected SA fan.
Yes, I say that with a touch of bitterness. Because I'm pissed off. Pissed off at how f*ckin useless the Boks were. In fact not only pissed off, but embarrassed. Even with awful weather and Stu Dick doing what he does best, we could have and SHOULD have played much better than that.
It was atrocious, and its about time that big changes are made. I would get rid of Dick Muir for one, and can only pray that random doping tests are done on the coaching staff - anyone seen PDV's eyes lately?
Even with a pathetic strategy, there are leaders out there who should be making better decisions and executing play with better ability.
I'll say congrats to Dan Parks for kicking so well in the rain and to the Scottish forwards, but that really was a performance on a par to 2002, when we last lost to Scotland. It was worse in fact, even though it was a closer game than that time.
For me there was probably only one positive to come out of the game - Chillyboy Ralepele wasn't on the field!
Bitching aside, great spirit shown by the Scots. Congratulations to them, and to all those fans who turned out in the cold and rain a week after getting their arses handed to them.
Dejected SA fan.
Noms November 21, 2010 10:45 pm
Well done to Scotland. After getting smashed last week they bounced back very nicely. But I gotta say, the game almost put me to sleep.
I'm sorry but "Matt" a rematch against the AB's is probably a little out of Scotland's depth. Baby steps mate, baby steps. ;-)
I'm sorry but "Matt" a rematch against the AB's is probably a little out of Scotland's depth. Baby steps mate, baby steps. ;-)
RedYeti November 22, 2010 1:21 am
"@ Mike. How many games have been played SH vs NH this month?
And NH have won 2, wow. Great achievement.
NH rugby is still shithouse."
------------------------------
Well lets actually add up the results so far:
NZ have won 3/3
Aus have won 2/3
SA have won 2/3
Argentina have won 1/2
Samoa have won 0/2
Fiji have won 0/2 (but a draw)
So the SH teams have 8 wins, to the NH's 7. Wouldn't say that proves that 'NH rugby is still shithouse' as you so elegantly put it.
I would however agree that the top ranked 3 teams in the world have done well so far, which is surely to be expected...
And NH have won 2, wow. Great achievement.
NH rugby is still shithouse."
------------------------------
Well lets actually add up the results so far:
NZ have won 3/3
Aus have won 2/3
SA have won 2/3
Argentina have won 1/2
Samoa have won 0/2
Fiji have won 0/2 (but a draw)
So the SH teams have 8 wins, to the NH's 7. Wouldn't say that proves that 'NH rugby is still shithouse' as you so elegantly put it.
I would however agree that the top ranked 3 teams in the world have done well so far, which is surely to be expected...
RedYeti November 22, 2010 1:22 am
Sorry that should say 6 wins for the NH, I accidentally counted Wales' draw with Fiji
Believer November 22, 2010 1:27 am
My oh my there are some sour grapes on here!
@ Tommo
What you seem to overlook is that the "better teams" SA have beaten are both now ranked below Scotland in the IRB rankings.
Secondly, both Ireland and Wales have been playing very poorly (see Wales draw with Fiji) and the Boks still struggled to put them away!
Thirdly, you talk about the Boks "2nd string team" yet appear to overlook the fact that Scotland had have 2nd string team out too.
And finally, Scotland controlled pretty much the whole game and if anything the scoreline flattered SA.
Scotland won, they didn't score a try, but apart from a bit of luck from a cock-up at your line-out, neither would SA have! Mainly because the weather (which was the same for both sides) didn't permit a very expansive game to be played!
Scotland got a wake up call last week, coming out cold against an AB team which simply clicked. If they were to pay them again next week the score would without doubt be A LOT closer!
About time people started giving Scotland the respect they have earned over the last year, and i shan't even respond to your immature name calling! It's really too pathetic to deserve any response!
@ Tommo
What you seem to overlook is that the "better teams" SA have beaten are both now ranked below Scotland in the IRB rankings.
Secondly, both Ireland and Wales have been playing very poorly (see Wales draw with Fiji) and the Boks still struggled to put them away!
Thirdly, you talk about the Boks "2nd string team" yet appear to overlook the fact that Scotland had have 2nd string team out too.
And finally, Scotland controlled pretty much the whole game and if anything the scoreline flattered SA.
Scotland won, they didn't score a try, but apart from a bit of luck from a cock-up at your line-out, neither would SA have! Mainly because the weather (which was the same for both sides) didn't permit a very expansive game to be played!
Scotland got a wake up call last week, coming out cold against an AB team which simply clicked. If they were to pay them again next week the score would without doubt be A LOT closer!
About time people started giving Scotland the respect they have earned over the last year, and i shan't even respond to your immature name calling! It's really too pathetic to deserve any response!
fry November 22, 2010 3:25 am
"in terms of the saffa's i must admit some very harsh reffing decisions...especially the 'coming off the feet call' against the saffa 7....very dubious...looked like standard rucking to me..."
Was that in the 68th minute when Smith was penalized? I thought that was a horrible call; watching the replay, Smith didn't even go to the ground; he was on his feet, guarding the ball...nothing illegal in that.
But the rest of the game, Scotland was still (surprisingly) a much more composed side; they deserved the win for sure.
I wish Scotland would score a try for once; how many games tries have they scored in the last ten games or so? I could probably count them one just one hand...
Either way, glad to see the boys in blue step their defense up from the dismal display against NZ the other week.
Was that in the 68th minute when Smith was penalized? I thought that was a horrible call; watching the replay, Smith didn't even go to the ground; he was on his feet, guarding the ball...nothing illegal in that.
But the rest of the game, Scotland was still (surprisingly) a much more composed side; they deserved the win for sure.
I wish Scotland would score a try for once; how many games tries have they scored in the last ten games or so? I could probably count them one just one hand...
Either way, glad to see the boys in blue step their defense up from the dismal display against NZ the other week.
Norf November 22, 2010 5:02 am
Matt said... Would be great if you could have a re-match against our All Blacks next week, how much of a different story would that be!
Nah, much the same as last time I think. All the same, well played Scots.
Nah, much the same as last time I think. All the same, well played Scots.
Dub in Oz November 22, 2010 5:51 am
Good on you Scotland. But jesus, they have to be the most ponderous attacking force in rugby history. Why can't Scotland score tries? They've always got a few line breaks in them. Remember last year against wales they had about 100 line breaks and couldn't put them away. There's a huge gap in terms of finishing between the top four (especially the all blacks) and the rest.
rick November 22, 2010 6:51 am
I know...that's the main thing I've taken away from these matches...the ability for the top-most sides to finish off try-scoring opportunities with...tries.
As you said, especially the ABs. Them game against Ireland, the Irish were ahead and looking to maybe make this their year, but then out of nothing, NZ score a try. It's almost like all these other teams have a mental block against crossing the tryline. They do all the hard work to get there, and then piss their pants and cough up the ball in the last 5m. Very frustrating stuff if you're hoping for some NH underdog victories.
As you said, especially the ABs. Them game against Ireland, the Irish were ahead and looking to maybe make this their year, but then out of nothing, NZ score a try. It's almost like all these other teams have a mental block against crossing the tryline. They do all the hard work to get there, and then piss their pants and cough up the ball in the last 5m. Very frustrating stuff if you're hoping for some NH underdog victories.
Anonymous November 22, 2010 9:12 am
we must fire Peter "snor" de Villiers NOW! Actually hope that we do lose against pompies with at least ten points.
We won against Ireland with an intercept try,for me thats like an own goal.AND ireland played shit,even they admiitted it and we still get away with only two points.23-21
Wales scored 3 tries,with us only scoring twice.just penalties got us that win.
ANd now Scotland won us when our luck ran out.never saw a springbok side as poor as this.
Embarresed
We won against Ireland with an intercept try,for me thats like an own goal.AND ireland played shit,even they admiitted it and we still get away with only two points.23-21
Wales scored 3 tries,with us only scoring twice.just penalties got us that win.
ANd now Scotland won us when our luck ran out.never saw a springbok side as poor as this.
Embarresed
Anonymous November 22, 2010 9:20 am
^^ must to add anon above that SA are without 16 players.
Bryan Habana(former IRB player of year)
Schalk Burger(former IRB player)
John Smit(the CAPTAIN)
Andries Bekker(Super 14 player of the year 2010)
Guthro Steenkamp(SA player of the year 2010)
Fourie Du preez(regarded as best no9 in the world,and arguably best player in the world.SA miss him the most)
And many more
Bryan Habana(former IRB player of year)
Schalk Burger(former IRB player)
John Smit(the CAPTAIN)
Andries Bekker(Super 14 player of the year 2010)
Guthro Steenkamp(SA player of the year 2010)
Fourie Du preez(regarded as best no9 in the world,and arguably best player in the world.SA miss him the most)
And many more
Anonymous November 22, 2010 10:16 am
hey Bokke2007 makes an appearance, its been a while. LOL
Anonymous November 22, 2010 10:49 am
@fry
You can't put weight on your hands. This has been a directive sent out to refs. You are only allowed to have hands on the ground if you are ripping the ball. Smith was clearly supporting himself on his hands. He clearly wasn't going for the ball.
He was thus treated as if he was off his feet.
You can't put weight on your hands. This has been a directive sent out to refs. You are only allowed to have hands on the ground if you are ripping the ball. Smith was clearly supporting himself on his hands. He clearly wasn't going for the ball.
He was thus treated as if he was off his feet.
Scotsdale November 22, 2010 10:57 am
It's true about players missing but that excuse would indicate that the 22 were worse on paper than Scotland's 22, which isn't necessarily the case.
They simply played really badly and for some reason expected Scotland to roll over and let them get away with it.
I hope the players realise the country is disgusted by them and of course the coaching staff and tactics.
They simply played really badly and for some reason expected Scotland to roll over and let them get away with it.
I hope the players realise the country is disgusted by them and of course the coaching staff and tactics.
Kiwi November 22, 2010 11:21 am
Long live PDV! May he be coach of SA for another few years!
junglebunny November 22, 2010 11:50 am
Thank god we have the all blacks and ireland to save the weekend because every other game was so boring. Hey has anyone seen cock_2007?
NIWiTa November 22, 2010 12:51 pm
Well done Scotland - a deserved result. I agree with @believer, Scotland deserve more respect than many people are giving them on this site......As an England supporter they have when on form been horrible to play as proved this weekend. Scottish back-row is growing more and more formidable - well done them and Andy Robinson.
Have to admit PDV seems a bit of a strategic no-hoper as regards his planning. Who could you replace him with?
Finally @Tommo, chillax mate, you lost and it was a very miserable day. No need to call all of us living here alcoholics! By the same token, perhaps we should call all white south africans racists (which would be pretty out of order)
Have to admit PDV seems a bit of a strategic no-hoper as regards his planning. Who could you replace him with?
Finally @Tommo, chillax mate, you lost and it was a very miserable day. No need to call all of us living here alcoholics! By the same token, perhaps we should call all white south africans racists (which would be pretty out of order)
edbok November 22, 2010 2:14 pm
Well done Scotland, you won an arm-wrestle fair and square. In the conditions, there was no other way to get the job done.
Mixed feelings about the extent to which to be critical of PDV for this loss - I'm not against the idea of giving guys like Lambie a run, that's a perfectly decent aim of this tour, but tactically we were rubbish. Far too many wasted kicks, not enough patience in trying to draw penalties off Scotland when we were in possession in their half. Basically, the opposite of what Scotland did well, and as ever, you have to question what PDV was telling the team. And organisationally, moving Frans Steyn to full-back seemed like a very obvious move with the game turning into a pure battle for territory. I can remember how we won the 3N last year, can PDV?
In the end, all this probably means that PDV's job depends on the performance against England. So yep, I can't stand losing to England, but if it means the end of PDV, that will go a long way to easing the pain!
Mixed feelings about the extent to which to be critical of PDV for this loss - I'm not against the idea of giving guys like Lambie a run, that's a perfectly decent aim of this tour, but tactically we were rubbish. Far too many wasted kicks, not enough patience in trying to draw penalties off Scotland when we were in possession in their half. Basically, the opposite of what Scotland did well, and as ever, you have to question what PDV was telling the team. And organisationally, moving Frans Steyn to full-back seemed like a very obvious move with the game turning into a pure battle for territory. I can remember how we won the 3N last year, can PDV?
In the end, all this probably means that PDV's job depends on the performance against England. So yep, I can't stand losing to England, but if it means the end of PDV, that will go a long way to easing the pain!
Anonymous November 22, 2010 2:26 pm
Who can replace P Divvy and his fellow retards.
Heyneke Meyer,Jake White, Allister Coetzee and the defence coach of the stormers. Now that will make us world champs again.
If SARU wants to make this political again,make allister coetzee head coach.
This is the kinda crap south africa have to deal with that no other country has to. Its always about colour and making the team look more like an African side.Hate this bullshit
Heyneke Meyer,Jake White, Allister Coetzee and the defence coach of the stormers. Now that will make us world champs again.
If SARU wants to make this political again,make allister coetzee head coach.
This is the kinda crap south africa have to deal with that no other country has to. Its always about colour and making the team look more like an African side.Hate this bullshit
falafel waffle November 22, 2010 4:16 pm
What a bunch of nonsense, anonymous. The whole color quota issue should be hardly an "issue" anymore. Save Ralepelle (who everyone seems to hate, even though he's not a bad player), what players do you have a beef with being in the squad that you feel shouldn't?
None really come to mind. Sure, the squad gets switched up pretty often, but that's because SA have so much of that coveted "depth" people always talk about. Take any number of players from any top-performing Currie Cup side and you'd have an international squad worth sending on tour.
"This is the kinda crap south africa have to deal with that no other country has to."
Sure they do; bad management is ubiquitous.
None really come to mind. Sure, the squad gets switched up pretty often, but that's because SA have so much of that coveted "depth" people always talk about. Take any number of players from any top-performing Currie Cup side and you'd have an international squad worth sending on tour.
"This is the kinda crap south africa have to deal with that no other country has to."
Sure they do; bad management is ubiquitous.
Anonymous November 22, 2010 6:30 pm
waffle dude,everybody knows SA rugby always had politics in it.Thats how Peter De villiers got his job.Oregan Hoskins even admitted it
Imma colourd South African and ill admit it.And you saying that Ralepelle not that bad a player,the guy is pathetic.He played 24 min of super rugby because of injury and still got chosen.
There is much better white players better than ralepelle,maku,ndungane,january(wuld have been chosen if he culd play)
Player such as Tiaan liebenberg,Gerhard van den Heever,Sarel pretorius,jano vermaak,gary botha,Schalk Brits.just a few
SA will always have politics mixed in our sport.its something we gotta live with
Imma colourd South African and ill admit it.And you saying that Ralepelle not that bad a player,the guy is pathetic.He played 24 min of super rugby because of injury and still got chosen.
There is much better white players better than ralepelle,maku,ndungane,january(wuld have been chosen if he culd play)
Player such as Tiaan liebenberg,Gerhard van den Heever,Sarel pretorius,jano vermaak,gary botha,Schalk Brits.just a few
SA will always have politics mixed in our sport.its something we gotta live with
falafel waffle November 22, 2010 8:01 pm
Okay? The wrong players get picked...that happens in every team.
As far as I can tell, both Bismarck du Plessis and Adriaan Strauss were picked before Schalk Brits, Gary Botha (both of whom have been picked before by SA - though I agree Brits has always been somewhat underlooked), and Tiaan Liebenberg. Ralepelle was probably one of the few players who were picked due to "political" reasons who didn't really deserve to be there, but he's gone and the players you named still weren't called up.
Hougaard was selected because Januarie is a fat bastard who is slow and throws wild passes; Hougaard has been terrific for SA in FdP's absence. Ruan Pienaar was also selected ahead of Januarie as well. So if Vermaak and Pretorius were overlooked, it surely isn't because of Ricky Januarie.
Gerhard van den Heever was great in this year's Currie Cup, but so was Mvovo. I agree that Ndungane shouldn't be high on the selection list, either. But he wansn't on this tour, was he? Bjorn Basson was the top try scorer this year, but in 4 games with SA he's scored nothing. He's out anyways, so they brought in Mvovo who was second in tries scored. Heever might get his chance someday...or he may not (a la Fionn Carr).
The point is that the race issue is a pretty weak cop out at this point; if you've got a problem with selection, it's probably just because - like any squad - undeserving players sometimes get picked ahead of deserving ones - non-white and white alike. But I know for you guys in South Africa, race is still a pretty hot topic; I'm not trying to deny that sometimes, the wrong people do get picked because of stupid reasons like race and the quest for a politically-correct image - I'm sure it does happen. I just think that it happens less and less frequently as time goes on. If anything, a problem for SA is the Bulls/Sharks tunnel vision they seem to have when picking the squad.
As far as I can tell, both Bismarck du Plessis and Adriaan Strauss were picked before Schalk Brits, Gary Botha (both of whom have been picked before by SA - though I agree Brits has always been somewhat underlooked), and Tiaan Liebenberg. Ralepelle was probably one of the few players who were picked due to "political" reasons who didn't really deserve to be there, but he's gone and the players you named still weren't called up.
Hougaard was selected because Januarie is a fat bastard who is slow and throws wild passes; Hougaard has been terrific for SA in FdP's absence. Ruan Pienaar was also selected ahead of Januarie as well. So if Vermaak and Pretorius were overlooked, it surely isn't because of Ricky Januarie.
Gerhard van den Heever was great in this year's Currie Cup, but so was Mvovo. I agree that Ndungane shouldn't be high on the selection list, either. But he wansn't on this tour, was he? Bjorn Basson was the top try scorer this year, but in 4 games with SA he's scored nothing. He's out anyways, so they brought in Mvovo who was second in tries scored. Heever might get his chance someday...or he may not (a la Fionn Carr).
The point is that the race issue is a pretty weak cop out at this point; if you've got a problem with selection, it's probably just because - like any squad - undeserving players sometimes get picked ahead of deserving ones - non-white and white alike. But I know for you guys in South Africa, race is still a pretty hot topic; I'm not trying to deny that sometimes, the wrong people do get picked because of stupid reasons like race and the quest for a politically-correct image - I'm sure it does happen. I just think that it happens less and less frequently as time goes on. If anything, a problem for SA is the Bulls/Sharks tunnel vision they seem to have when picking the squad.
(u-p)rick November 22, 2010 8:21 pm
'Bryan Habana
Schalk Burger
John Smit
Andries Bekker
Guthro Steenkamp
Fourie Du preez'
so those among others were missing.....did you research into which scottish players were not playing?
Cusiter...arguably scotlands best scrum half..
Thom Evans (out for life)
Max Evans
etc etc...no one has a full team, and can you honestly say you'd put Andries Bekker in the second row ahead of Matfield and Botha?
There is no deny Scotland were the better team on the day, but there is also no denying that SA were not fielding a second string side...ok perhaps not top choice all round, but there was a hell of a lot of first pick and world XV players in their team!
Schalk Burger
John Smit
Andries Bekker
Guthro Steenkamp
Fourie Du preez'
so those among others were missing.....did you research into which scottish players were not playing?
Cusiter...arguably scotlands best scrum half..
Thom Evans (out for life)
Max Evans
etc etc...no one has a full team, and can you honestly say you'd put Andries Bekker in the second row ahead of Matfield and Botha?
There is no deny Scotland were the better team on the day, but there is also no denying that SA were not fielding a second string side...ok perhaps not top choice all round, but there was a hell of a lot of first pick and world XV players in their team!
Anonymous November 22, 2010 8:33 pm
^^Ricky January is injured.He wuld have been selected if not injured. Bandise Maku was in the Tri nations squad and has just been called up.aswell as ndungane
My points is,If SAs political issues were less dramatic. Players like tiaan liebenberg and Schalk brits could have been IN THE PLACE of ralepelle and maku.And not bismarck being choosed instead of brits ect. Brits should be choosed IN THE PLACE of ralepelle ect.
It all comes down to SA not choosing players on merit
My points is,If SAs political issues were less dramatic. Players like tiaan liebenberg and Schalk brits could have been IN THE PLACE of ralepelle and maku.And not bismarck being choosed instead of brits ect. Brits should be choosed IN THE PLACE of ralepelle ect.
It all comes down to SA not choosing players on merit
Benson November 22, 2010 8:42 pm
I'll add my two cents - I think the original person who moaned about the race issue was actually referring to Peter De Villiers wasn't he?
It's true that the majority of players that are chosen are now there on merit, no doubt about it. But there are still a few like Januarie, Ralapele, Maku, Kirchner even possibly.. and Jacobs (squad) whose selections are influenced by their skin colour.
Anyway, missing Schalk Burger and Fourie Du Preez is like the All Blacks missing Dan Carter and Richie McCaw. Admittedly the All Blacks would probably struggle more but those two guys really are incredibly important to South Africa. I mean, Jake White admitted that he built his team around Burger for years! He considered him his most important player.
Dont forget Jaque Fourie too, the midfield orchestrator on defence.
Oh and then a certain world cup winning captain. He's quite important too! :)
I do agree though that elements of it weren't second string. Not the best side ever but certainly not like the shambles that toured last year. These guys just played below their ability.
Excuses help us feel better about the loss, but we all know that the 15 out there played terribly.
On the Chris Cusitor comment - isn't Mike Blair supposedly the highest rated number 9 over there?
It's true that the majority of players that are chosen are now there on merit, no doubt about it. But there are still a few like Januarie, Ralapele, Maku, Kirchner even possibly.. and Jacobs (squad) whose selections are influenced by their skin colour.
Anyway, missing Schalk Burger and Fourie Du Preez is like the All Blacks missing Dan Carter and Richie McCaw. Admittedly the All Blacks would probably struggle more but those two guys really are incredibly important to South Africa. I mean, Jake White admitted that he built his team around Burger for years! He considered him his most important player.
Dont forget Jaque Fourie too, the midfield orchestrator on defence.
Oh and then a certain world cup winning captain. He's quite important too! :)
I do agree though that elements of it weren't second string. Not the best side ever but certainly not like the shambles that toured last year. These guys just played below their ability.
Excuses help us feel better about the loss, but we all know that the 15 out there played terribly.
On the Chris Cusitor comment - isn't Mike Blair supposedly the highest rated number 9 over there?
Anonymous November 22, 2010 8:52 pm
@ (u-p)rick
did you notice when anon said 16 players. 16 players! He just named a few of them.im sure that players like jaque fourie,juan de jong,jp pietersen,heinrich brussouw could also have made a difference and you cant compare scotland no.9 to fourie du preez
Scotland had only a few but still SA played really bad. Scotland were the best and congrats to them for a solid performance.Really glad us NH teams winning games again.
The thing about SA racism and politics crap.Thats SAs problem.Dont really care
did you notice when anon said 16 players. 16 players! He just named a few of them.im sure that players like jaque fourie,juan de jong,jp pietersen,heinrich brussouw could also have made a difference and you cant compare scotland no.9 to fourie du preez
Scotland had only a few but still SA played really bad. Scotland were the best and congrats to them for a solid performance.Really glad us NH teams winning games again.
The thing about SA racism and politics crap.Thats SAs problem.Dont really care
(u-p)rick November 22, 2010 10:14 pm
'you cant compare scotland no.9 to fourie du preez'
Oh im sorry, it only counts when the players are SA players does it?
I simply stated Cusiter (or Blair) are Scotlands top notch no.9 and they/he wasnt playing, so the simple fact is SA favourite 9 was injured and Scot favourite 9 was injured....
(i dont quite see what comparing the halfs actually has to do with anything...)
Scotland:
Southwell
S. Lamont
Parks
R. Lawson
Jacobsen
Ford
Murray
Hines
Barclay
Brown
(unsure about Walker, Morrison..heard them as subs!)
South Africa:
Aplon,
F. Steyn,
de Villiers,
M. Steyn,
Mtawarira,
B. du Plessis,
Botha,
Matfield,
Smith,
Kankowski.
(Not sure about J. du Plessis)
Out of the SA lineup I'd say that is a strong side, obviously its not a top notch SA side, i.e id imagine spies is ahead of Kankowski
But they are all very familiar names within the SA side...
I mean I can name an awful lot of scottish players (admittadley i have no idea who is retired or what not) that are key to the scottish side in previous years who were not playing...
The point im trying to make is both teams can name a lot of players who were not there or could have been there, the fact is SA just looked awful on the day and lost, whereas Scotland who were missing some more favourable players looked more focussed and on the ball!
Oh im sorry, it only counts when the players are SA players does it?
I simply stated Cusiter (or Blair) are Scotlands top notch no.9 and they/he wasnt playing, so the simple fact is SA favourite 9 was injured and Scot favourite 9 was injured....
(i dont quite see what comparing the halfs actually has to do with anything...)
Scotland:
Southwell
S. Lamont
Parks
R. Lawson
Jacobsen
Ford
Murray
Hines
Barclay
Brown
(unsure about Walker, Morrison..heard them as subs!)
South Africa:
Aplon,
F. Steyn,
de Villiers,
M. Steyn,
Mtawarira,
B. du Plessis,
Botha,
Matfield,
Smith,
Kankowski.
(Not sure about J. du Plessis)
Out of the SA lineup I'd say that is a strong side, obviously its not a top notch SA side, i.e id imagine spies is ahead of Kankowski
But they are all very familiar names within the SA side...
I mean I can name an awful lot of scottish players (admittadley i have no idea who is retired or what not) that are key to the scottish side in previous years who were not playing...
The point im trying to make is both teams can name a lot of players who were not there or could have been there, the fact is SA just looked awful on the day and lost, whereas Scotland who were missing some more favourable players looked more focussed and on the ball!
(u-p)rick November 22, 2010 10:22 pm
'did you notice when anon said 16 players. 16 players! He just named a few of them'
To directly reply to that, he names 16 players.....that is over a whole team of extra players who will jump into the SA side, from looking at the team sheet from saturday, you have V. Matfield who in my eyes is irreplaceable....he is a key forward, a strong captain and in my eyes one of the best locks in the world....there is also bakkies botha, who in my eyes is a complete tool, but id have him in my team....and 'the beast' has started in a lot of games recently so id say he is first choice (correct me if im wrong..) so straight away without even trying i can say 1 of those 16 is a sub already, plus 3 more (they will not replace the beast, matfield or bakkies as starters) so you're saying 12 of those guys were starting players? i dont think so...
To directly reply to that, he names 16 players.....that is over a whole team of extra players who will jump into the SA side, from looking at the team sheet from saturday, you have V. Matfield who in my eyes is irreplaceable....he is a key forward, a strong captain and in my eyes one of the best locks in the world....there is also bakkies botha, who in my eyes is a complete tool, but id have him in my team....and 'the beast' has started in a lot of games recently so id say he is first choice (correct me if im wrong..) so straight away without even trying i can say 1 of those 16 is a sub already, plus 3 more (they will not replace the beast, matfield or bakkies as starters) so you're saying 12 of those guys were starting players? i dont think so...
Hiekommiekaknou November 22, 2010 10:28 pm
(u-p)rick, yawn. You bash SA on every thread, trying desperately to make your points and win arguments against 0.1% of the population that you love to hate so much.
It's the cocks that speak out and cause shit. Every country has them. Stop judging people based on the internet.
Think about it bro.
(this comment has nothing to do with your last two, its just a general observation).
Peace out.
It's the cocks that speak out and cause shit. Every country has them. Stop judging people based on the internet.
Think about it bro.
(this comment has nothing to do with your last two, its just a general observation).
Peace out.
Believer November 22, 2010 10:31 pm
Mike Blair was once considered as being the best SH in the Northern Hemisphere, maybe even the world, however his form dipped dramatically about a year and a half ago and he is only just coming back into form and was injured on Saturday.
Either way, Scotland still had a 3RD CHOICE scrum-half out there.
In addition, while our replacements performed admirably, we were also without our first choice:
No.8, Johnnie Beattie, a class act and second only perhaps to Harinordiquay and Parisse in the NH, although many would argue he is just as good. HIs replacement was winning just his 3rd (or 4th) cap.
Winger: Nikki Walker is Useless. If fit, any one of Rory Lamont, Thom Evans, Max Evans or Simon Danielli would have played instead. Arguably our 5TH CHOICE winger.
O/C: Ansboro was winning his first cap and was only called up at the last minute after not even being in the original 22!
2nd Row & Captain: Al Kellock has become indispensable to Scotlands cause recently. Not just a world class player, but an inspirational captain. His replacement was winning just his 2nd (or 3rd) cap.
Those are at least 5 positions which were missing our first choice starters, with some being filled by 3rd, 4th or even 5th choice selections. We also had our 4th choice captain behind Kellock and both injured S/H's.
Furthermore, those i have mentioned are just the ones who EVERYONE would agree on. Some may argue that a few of our other players on Saturday were only there du to injury to others.
Bottom line, both sides were weakened and Scotland simply played better!
Either way, Scotland still had a 3RD CHOICE scrum-half out there.
In addition, while our replacements performed admirably, we were also without our first choice:
No.8, Johnnie Beattie, a class act and second only perhaps to Harinordiquay and Parisse in the NH, although many would argue he is just as good. HIs replacement was winning just his 3rd (or 4th) cap.
Winger: Nikki Walker is Useless. If fit, any one of Rory Lamont, Thom Evans, Max Evans or Simon Danielli would have played instead. Arguably our 5TH CHOICE winger.
O/C: Ansboro was winning his first cap and was only called up at the last minute after not even being in the original 22!
2nd Row & Captain: Al Kellock has become indispensable to Scotlands cause recently. Not just a world class player, but an inspirational captain. His replacement was winning just his 2nd (or 3rd) cap.
Those are at least 5 positions which were missing our first choice starters, with some being filled by 3rd, 4th or even 5th choice selections. We also had our 4th choice captain behind Kellock and both injured S/H's.
Furthermore, those i have mentioned are just the ones who EVERYONE would agree on. Some may argue that a few of our other players on Saturday were only there du to injury to others.
Bottom line, both sides were weakened and Scotland simply played better!
Shark Attack November 23, 2010 2:49 am
No excuses really.
I dont think either team played particularly well I just thought the Bokke were hopeless. Not too take anything away from Scotland they did what they had to in order to close out a kak game in terrible conditions. They won.
The main worry is can we afford to draw and quarter PdV so close to a World Cup?
I dont think either team played particularly well I just thought the Bokke were hopeless. Not too take anything away from Scotland they did what they had to in order to close out a kak game in terrible conditions. They won.
The main worry is can we afford to draw and quarter PdV so close to a World Cup?
(u-p)rick November 23, 2010 4:21 am
ummm, in actual fact im not bashing SA at all....
I have little issue with SA, and infact any issue I have would be an awful lot less if some fans werent such loud mouths who try at every corner to claim their team wins 100% of games....and any games they lose either dont count or were not important etc etc...
Im not trying to insult any SA fans here, im merely stating do not try and take the win away from scotland who were the better team on the day....ofcourse, a re-match next weekend would/could yield a true ass whipping for scotland, because as stated by myself and others SA looked lost on the weekend.
I dont believe many comments on here were from people who watch the full game.......it wasnt the prettiest but it wasn't as bad as some of you are stating...
I have little issue with SA, and infact any issue I have would be an awful lot less if some fans werent such loud mouths who try at every corner to claim their team wins 100% of games....and any games they lose either dont count or were not important etc etc...
Im not trying to insult any SA fans here, im merely stating do not try and take the win away from scotland who were the better team on the day....ofcourse, a re-match next weekend would/could yield a true ass whipping for scotland, because as stated by myself and others SA looked lost on the weekend.
I dont believe many comments on here were from people who watch the full game.......it wasnt the prettiest but it wasn't as bad as some of you are stating...
Scot Saffa November 24, 2010 2:45 pm
Well I am a half and halfer, half Scot, half Saffa. I was at the game and can confirm, other than the close scoreline and the last 5-10 mins of play, the game was nothing like the most exciting i've ever watched. Saying that, I couldnt be prouder to be a Scot and beat SA for the second time in 8 years, of only 5 times total! Not only that but I was there in '02 and in '97 (when SA beat scotland by the biggest margin ever!).
Anyway, regarding the lack of tries from Scotland, I have been pondering this myself. Considering half the Scottish team comes from Edinburgh, and they scored more tries than any other team in the Magners league last season (over 2 per game), I dont understand how this isnt translating to the national squad.
Either way, Andy Robinson is the best thing to happen to Scottish rugby in years. He (almost immediately) took Edinburgh up to a 2nd place finish in the Magners League, and since joining the national squad, has lead them to only losing 1 game in the last six, and beating 2/3 of the top SH teams in 12 months.
SA lost the game because they were trying to play to 2007/2008 tactics. Kick chase, territory, etc. This isnt going to work with the current climate and law interps, and the Sharks proved in the CC this year just how effective holding the ball is, regardless of conditions!
Interestingly, SA lost to Scotland in '02 and then did abysmally in the '03 world cup. PDV needs to go, but SARFU wont do anything about it. Ah well, roll on WC2015!
Anyway, regarding the lack of tries from Scotland, I have been pondering this myself. Considering half the Scottish team comes from Edinburgh, and they scored more tries than any other team in the Magners league last season (over 2 per game), I dont understand how this isnt translating to the national squad.
Either way, Andy Robinson is the best thing to happen to Scottish rugby in years. He (almost immediately) took Edinburgh up to a 2nd place finish in the Magners League, and since joining the national squad, has lead them to only losing 1 game in the last six, and beating 2/3 of the top SH teams in 12 months.
SA lost the game because they were trying to play to 2007/2008 tactics. Kick chase, territory, etc. This isnt going to work with the current climate and law interps, and the Sharks proved in the CC this year just how effective holding the ball is, regardless of conditions!
Interestingly, SA lost to Scotland in '02 and then did abysmally in the '03 world cup. PDV needs to go, but SARFU wont do anything about it. Ah well, roll on WC2015!
NiWiTa November 24, 2010 3:16 pm
@Scott Saffa - well said chap. I think the PDV is undermining SA performances now but too late for a change before the world-cup...
As a an England supporter I am delighted Andy Robinson has done such a smashing job as a coach and gutted that he was given so little time when England were in the doldrums and he was our coach. Unsuprisingly Martin "no imagination" Johnson and Dallagio were always nipping him in the press and lead to his downfall....
I think the reason Scotland don't score more tries internationally is all to do with belief and no proper talent at inside centre. The belief aspect is changing and tries will come through the team but spreading the ball wide never creates the space due to a lack of capability at this position in my opinion.
As to SA fans - cheer up, from losses like this teams learn and even PDV might think to vary his strategy regarding style of play!
Imagine what is is like being a NH fan and that should make you smile :P
As a an England supporter I am delighted Andy Robinson has done such a smashing job as a coach and gutted that he was given so little time when England were in the doldrums and he was our coach. Unsuprisingly Martin "no imagination" Johnson and Dallagio were always nipping him in the press and lead to his downfall....
I think the reason Scotland don't score more tries internationally is all to do with belief and no proper talent at inside centre. The belief aspect is changing and tries will come through the team but spreading the ball wide never creates the space due to a lack of capability at this position in my opinion.
As to SA fans - cheer up, from losses like this teams learn and even PDV might think to vary his strategy regarding style of play!
Imagine what is is like being a NH fan and that should make you smile :P
Bokke2007 November 26, 2010 7:02 am
Boks were the better team on the night, scotland didn't win, the Boks lost. The ref seemed to favour the Scots too. This match doesn't mean anything.
NiWiTa November 26, 2010 1:07 pm
well done @Bokke 2007 - I am assuming that anyone who wants to be an asshole now uses your moniker and with good reason....Glad to see you still trolling for a reaction like a 60 year old tart on Northumberland street!
Still you might score if Wayne Rooney is about. Peace out and peace off
Still you might score if Wayne Rooney is about. Peace out and peace off
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