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Brian O'Driscoll brilliance against NZ


Ben May nearly scores greatest prop try

Wednesday, February 09, 2011

Seremaia Burotu red carded for huge tackle against Samoa

Seremaia Burotu red carded for huge tackle against Samoa

You saw the highlights of the final of the fantastic Wellington Sevens yesterday, so heres another clip from the tournament, this time of a huge hit that unfortunately ended in a red card for Fijis Seremaia Burotu.

Fiji and Samoa met in the Cup quarter final, with Samoa coming out 12-5 eventual winners, helped in some respects by the sending off of Burotu, their leading try scorer.

The hit on Afa Aiono, who had actually scored both of Samoas first half tries, went wrong after initially being a good, solid tackle. The lifting and tipping motion ended things for him though, with referee Stuart Berry having little option but to red card the Fijian vice captain.

He missed the subsequent plate semifinal and final, and picked up a three match suspension when later sitting through a disciplinary hearing. That was reduced to two after an appeal, and the fact that hes missed the two games already means that hes free to appear at this weekends Las Vegas Sevens, the USA leg of the World Series.

"The 7s team management sat with the International Rugby Board Judicial where he was dished a two-match ban. This, he has already served so he should be able to play this weekend," said Fijian staff member Talemo Waqa.

Unfortunately this type of hit is dangerous and while initially it was an impressive show of timing, technique, and strength, you just can't get away with that these days.


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Classic Encounter - Wellington Sevens Final 2008
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Time: 01:44

Posted at 3:18 pm | 135 comments

Viewing 135 comments

Anonymous February 09, 2011 3:32 pm

red is okay for me... tired of illegal hits. no one needs a broken neck

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 3:32 pm

red is okay for me... tired of illegal hits. no one needs a broken neck

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Victor February 09, 2011 3:40 pm

hear hear

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Victor February 09, 2011 3:40 pm

hear hear

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SpencaH February 09, 2011 3:41 pm

If he doesnt up-end him its a quality tackle.....textbook hit. And he doesnt land that badly, he more hurt from the initial hit itself.

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SpencaH February 09, 2011 3:41 pm

If he doesnt up-end him its a quality tackle.....textbook hit. And he doesnt land that badly, he more hurt from the initial hit itself.

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irish ref February 09, 2011 3:43 pm

oh dear. Clear red.

Still the tip-tackle deniers will be out in force.

I only hope that a few lengthy bans after the correct red cards will tip the balance, and not some poor guy getting his neck broken.

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irish ref February 09, 2011 3:43 pm

oh dear. Clear red.

Still the tip-tackle deniers will be out in force.

I only hope that a few lengthy bans after the correct red cards will tip the balance, and not some poor guy getting his neck broken.

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Mark February 09, 2011 3:43 pm

Pity cos it could have been a perfectly crunching hit!

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Mark February 09, 2011 3:43 pm

Pity cos it could have been a perfectly crunching hit!

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Pat February 09, 2011 3:56 pm

This one was a spear tackle.
The player was lifted ok, but he grounded on his head, so dangerous, red!

but it's curious times on spear tackle citations.
u see plenty of tackles where the player is lifted, and the decisions change from a ref to another one.
florian fritz, for example, received a 3 weeks ban for his tackle on varndell which wasn't so dangerous. in a certain way, it's a fair sanction

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Pat February 09, 2011 3:56 pm

This one was a spear tackle.
The player was lifted ok, but he grounded on his head, so dangerous, red!

but it's curious times on spear tackle citations.
u see plenty of tackles where the player is lifted, and the decisions change from a ref to another one.
florian fritz, for example, received a 3 weeks ban for his tackle on varndell which wasn't so dangerous. in a certain way, it's a fair sanction

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 3:56 pm

biggest fan of burotu, never a dirty player so as afa aiono, small in structure but beastly of a man/player... good to see no injury here :)

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 3:56 pm

biggest fan of burotu, never a dirty player so as afa aiono, small in structure but beastly of a man/player... good to see no injury here :)

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 4:05 pm

Pat,

the ruling in the tip tackle has changed. It's no longer about how the player is brought to ground.

If you tip their legs through their axis in the air, you are red carded, regardless of how that player hits the deck.

Makes things a lot simpler

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 4:05 pm

Pat,

the ruling in the tip tackle has changed. It's no longer about how the player is brought to ground.

If you tip their legs through their axis in the air, you are red carded, regardless of how that player hits the deck.

Makes things a lot simpler

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 4:19 pm

Waist lifted above head = red card. Haters gonna hate, but that's the law at the moment.

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 4:19 pm

Waist lifted above head = red card. Haters gonna hate, but that's the law at the moment.

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 4:25 pm

Oh good, a red card which is actually warranted.

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 4:25 pm

Oh good, a red card which is actually warranted.

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 4:33 pm

I know they put down Fritz's whole three weeks for the tackle - but I'm sure it had something to do with the "offensive gesture"

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 4:33 pm

I know they put down Fritz's whole three weeks for the tackle - but I'm sure it had something to do with the "offensive gesture"

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Citing Commissioner February 09, 2011 5:06 pm

OK so he lifted him and tipped him, that is about it, he didn't drive him into the ground, the Fijian was in more danger than the Samoan by landing underneath the falling player. The Samoan made a miraculous recovery after the card had been given.
Rugby needs to take a look at itself and the way it is heading, 10 years ago not even a penalty, now a red card offence, what does the future have in store?

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Citing Commissioner February 09, 2011 5:06 pm

OK so he lifted him and tipped him, that is about it, he didn't drive him into the ground, the Fijian was in more danger than the Samoan by landing underneath the falling player. The Samoan made a miraculous recovery after the card had been given.
Rugby needs to take a look at itself and the way it is heading, 10 years ago not even a penalty, now a red card offence, what does the future have in store?

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BigBucks February 09, 2011 5:21 pm

Player who was tackled very lucky that the tackle ended putting him down on the floor onto his chest. Another two inches taller and it wouldnt of been head into floor, broken neck, A&E

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BigBucks February 09, 2011 5:21 pm

Player who was tackled very lucky that the tackle ended putting him down on the floor onto his chest. Another two inches taller and it wouldnt of been head into floor, broken neck, A&E

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F February 09, 2011 5:35 pm

If there was no rule against tip tackling no one would post 'Ooo that could break his neck.' They'd be hyping it up.. that's what I hate about this rule it's turned all the hard hitting fans who love the physicality into nit-picky law obiders..

Addmitedly after all that.. red is deserved because of the current (cr*p) rules.

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F February 09, 2011 5:35 pm

If there was no rule against tip tackling no one would post 'Ooo that could break his neck.' They'd be hyping it up.. that's what I hate about this rule it's turned all the hard hitting fans who love the physicality into nit-picky law obiders..

Addmitedly after all that.. red is deserved because of the current (cr*p) rules.

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kevin September 30, 2012 5:32 pm

why would a rule change mean that nobody would complain about possible broken necks? regardless of rules, that could of broken his neck! obviuosly

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Maximus February 09, 2011 5:37 pm

Definite red. No doubt.

BUT IF waist over head means automatic red, THEN at 0'06 in the video: RED.
Let me explain how I could justify this (given the rampant inconsistency, I have my chances): the tackled player's head doesn't touch the ground because he uses his hands to prevent this. And this shall not be taken into consideration (like Poitrenaud maintaining Varndell's shoulders).

Well, imo the tackle I mention at 0'06 is like Fritz's: fine. But "according to the laws blablabla..."
Problem is according to the laws, you do what you want. Especially about bans. Ask Fritz about the commission, hours of blatant evidence shown by Toulouse staff: 3 weeks. Thanks. Next.

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Maximus February 09, 2011 5:37 pm

Definite red. No doubt.

BUT IF waist over head means automatic red, THEN at 0'06 in the video: RED.
Let me explain how I could justify this (given the rampant inconsistency, I have my chances): the tackled player's head doesn't touch the ground because he uses his hands to prevent this. And this shall not be taken into consideration (like Poitrenaud maintaining Varndell's shoulders).

Well, imo the tackle I mention at 0'06 is like Fritz's: fine. But "according to the laws blablabla..."
Problem is according to the laws, you do what you want. Especially about bans. Ask Fritz about the commission, hours of blatant evidence shown by Toulouse staff: 3 weeks. Thanks. Next.

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 5:38 pm

it only became dangerous because the samoan twisted his body in the air....if he hadnt, it would have been a perfectly normal dump tackle and landed on his back and he would have been applauded for it.....thats not even a penalty in my book!

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 5:38 pm

it only became dangerous because the samoan twisted his body in the air....if he hadnt, it would have been a perfectly normal dump tackle and landed on his back and he would have been applauded for it.....thats not even a penalty in my book!

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(u-p)rick February 09, 2011 6:04 pm

F don't be a twit... A broken neck is a broken neck.... If RD shows a video of some random person doing a back flip in their garden and landing on their neck we would all think 'oooo broken neck?' and I'm pretty sure there are no laws restricting is from doing backflips in our gardens.... So just because there is a law doesn't mean we automatically bitch about it....

How many times do we see spears and say 'weeellllllll, letter of the law says red so I can see where the ref is coming from, but that wasn't thaaaat bad, I've seen much worse go unpunished' ? I can guarantee there are similar comments on probably every soft spear tackle.

The problem is where to draw the line. If you have no riling on it, then can a play turn another player 180 degrees and drive him directly head first into the ground? Because you cannot red card him if it's not illegal... And then ofcourse you get soft tackles which will be carded because by letter of the law they are spear tackles....

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(u-p)rick February 09, 2011 6:04 pm

F don't be a twit... A broken neck is a broken neck.... If RD shows a video of some random person doing a back flip in their garden and landing on their neck we would all think 'oooo broken neck?' and I'm pretty sure there are no laws restricting is from doing backflips in our gardens.... So just because there is a law doesn't mean we automatically bitch about it....

How many times do we see spears and say 'weeellllllll, letter of the law says red so I can see where the ref is coming from, but that wasn't thaaaat bad, I've seen much worse go unpunished' ? I can guarantee there are similar comments on probably every soft spear tackle.

The problem is where to draw the line. If you have no riling on it, then can a play turn another player 180 degrees and drive him directly head first into the ground? Because you cannot red card him if it's not illegal... And then ofcourse you get soft tackles which will be carded because by letter of the law they are spear tackles....

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Guy February 09, 2011 6:21 pm

I don't understand the difference of opinion on this subject. By now everybody knows the rules: you can still put in a hard tackle, you're just responsible for the safety of the person you tackle. What's so hard to understand?
Besides: do we want to see brocken necks because it is 'part of the game'? I think not.

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Guy February 09, 2011 6:21 pm

I don't understand the difference of opinion on this subject. By now everybody knows the rules: you can still put in a hard tackle, you're just responsible for the safety of the person you tackle. What's so hard to understand?
Besides: do we want to see brocken necks because it is 'part of the game'? I think not.

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Sweetdick February 09, 2011 7:16 pm

Questions:The first 12 years or so I played rugby I don't remember dump/spear/tip tackling being illegal. Was it illegal in the 90's or did I just have bad refs? When and why was this deemed illegal? Please don't call me a twit or a twat or nunce or anything. I am genuinely curious about the timeline.

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Sweetdick February 09, 2011 7:16 pm

Questions:The first 12 years or so I played rugby I don't remember dump/spear/tip tackling being illegal. Was it illegal in the 90's or did I just have bad refs? When and why was this deemed illegal? Please don't call me a twit or a twat or nunce or anything. I am genuinely curious about the timeline.

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Scotsdale February 09, 2011 7:35 pm

I hate to say this, but I'm yet to see or hear about a player breaking his neck from a spear tackle.

Anyone?

I genuinely think this was a brilliant hit. Ten years ago, yeehaah.. huge. Now, illegal. A little sad in a way, but probably necessary.

Then again, hookers falling to the floor when scrums collapse are probably more likely to injure their necks or heads than this guys was.

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Scotsdale February 09, 2011 7:35 pm

I hate to say this, but I'm yet to see or hear about a player breaking his neck from a spear tackle.

Anyone?

I genuinely think this was a brilliant hit. Ten years ago, yeehaah.. huge. Now, illegal. A little sad in a way, but probably necessary.

Then again, hookers falling to the floor when scrums collapse are probably more likely to injure their necks or heads than this guys was.

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 7:35 pm

fiji number 6 wanted some pasty!!

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 7:35 pm

fiji number 6 wanted some pasty!!

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Von February 09, 2011 7:50 pm

Sweetdick, you're right in that the "spear tackle" was not recognised as an offence in the 90s, as evidenced for example by some of the Jonny Wilkinson hits when he first arrived on the international scene, a smallish 18-year-old who ferociously tackled anything in his way. I'm sure there are videos on RD of him inserting players into the ground, (N'tamack one for example), without penalty and the commentators and crowd loving it.

I'm afraid I can't help you with the timing of when spear tackles were "invented". The first time I really remember hearing the phrase was the Umaga/Mealamu/O'Driscoll incident in the 2005 Lions tour.

On the neck-breaking hysteria, I don't mind being corrected on this, but happily I can't think of a single example in professional rugby of a spear tackle resulting in a broken neck. However, serious injuries like O'Driscoll's knackered shoulder and many others like that are perfectly sufficient to justify the rule that you can't drive a player head-first into the ground.

I do think that all this "tip-tackle" stuff takes it too far and that's where we're seeing a lot of excellent old-school tackles being unfairly punished - eg Banahan in Australia last year.

This Burotu is not such an example. This is a spear tackle and deserves to be punished as such. What I don't understand is why he chose to tip the bloke so far when he'd already done all the hard work. Could have just as easily dumped him on his arse and it would have been an even more impressive tackle for it.

One final comment: why don't tackled players do more to defend themselves from being inserted into the ground. I know rugby players generally don't mind being hurt but surely at some point the self-preservation instinct kicks in. Just last weekend, I was tackled brilliantly. Felt the bloke wrap my legs, right at the ankles and up I went. I knew I was getting smashed so rested a hand on his shoulder and did a kind of abs crunch-type move to keep my body fairly upright and not topple over head-first. It was a great tackle that put me flat on my back and as such I thoroughly enjoyed it. Needless to say I still managed to pop the ball up to my support...

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Von February 09, 2011 7:50 pm

Sweetdick, you're right in that the "spear tackle" was not recognised as an offence in the 90s, as evidenced for example by some of the Jonny Wilkinson hits when he first arrived on the international scene, a smallish 18-year-old who ferociously tackled anything in his way. I'm sure there are videos on RD of him inserting players into the ground, (N'tamack one for example), without penalty and the commentators and crowd loving it.

I'm afraid I can't help you with the timing of when spear tackles were "invented". The first time I really remember hearing the phrase was the Umaga/Mealamu/O'Driscoll incident in the 2005 Lions tour.

On the neck-breaking hysteria, I don't mind being corrected on this, but happily I can't think of a single example in professional rugby of a spear tackle resulting in a broken neck. However, serious injuries like O'Driscoll's knackered shoulder and many others like that are perfectly sufficient to justify the rule that you can't drive a player head-first into the ground.

I do think that all this "tip-tackle" stuff takes it too far and that's where we're seeing a lot of excellent old-school tackles being unfairly punished - eg Banahan in Australia last year.

This Burotu is not such an example. This is a spear tackle and deserves to be punished as such. What I don't understand is why he chose to tip the bloke so far when he'd already done all the hard work. Could have just as easily dumped him on his arse and it would have been an even more impressive tackle for it.

One final comment: why don't tackled players do more to defend themselves from being inserted into the ground. I know rugby players generally don't mind being hurt but surely at some point the self-preservation instinct kicks in. Just last weekend, I was tackled brilliantly. Felt the bloke wrap my legs, right at the ankles and up I went. I knew I was getting smashed so rested a hand on his shoulder and did a kind of abs crunch-type move to keep my body fairly upright and not topple over head-first. It was a great tackle that put me flat on my back and as such I thoroughly enjoyed it. Needless to say I still managed to pop the ball up to my support...

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Von February 09, 2011 8:00 pm

Sorry about the length of that post, by the way.

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Von February 09, 2011 8:00 pm

Sorry about the length of that post, by the way.

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t0m0 February 09, 2011 8:20 pm

Somebody please pull up some evidence of broken necks as a result of spear/tip tackles.

Surely if the IRB are so hot on it they will have commissioned a big old independent scientific report on it? Presumably with damming evidence.

Although the idea of dumping somebody on their head is abhorrent in the majority of cases, as Von has described above, instinct kicks in when their upside down and they brace their chins on their chests, meaning that they land on their shoulder blades.

I would imagine far more people die as a result of bad scrum technique rather than tip tackles but i dont see any red cards issued for not binding properly/boring/not driving straight etc.

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t0m0 February 09, 2011 8:20 pm

Somebody please pull up some evidence of broken necks as a result of spear/tip tackles.

Surely if the IRB are so hot on it they will have commissioned a big old independent scientific report on it? Presumably with damming evidence.

Although the idea of dumping somebody on their head is abhorrent in the majority of cases, as Von has described above, instinct kicks in when their upside down and they brace their chins on their chests, meaning that they land on their shoulder blades.

I would imagine far more people die as a result of bad scrum technique rather than tip tackles but i dont see any red cards issued for not binding properly/boring/not driving straight etc.

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Jimbo February 09, 2011 8:41 pm

That's a great idea. Let's not introduce a law till someone actually breaks their neck. Idiots. The rule is there to prevent it happening, not because of it. Sorry I don't have any actual figures for you!!!! As for the tip tackle, lifting head above waist etc I think its a very grey area. However I will argue that this is not the only way to put a massive hit in and is one of the many skills involved in the game. Accidents happen but if you can't tackle within the rules of the game, don't play.

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Jimbo February 09, 2011 8:41 pm

That's a great idea. Let's not introduce a law till someone actually breaks their neck. Idiots. The rule is there to prevent it happening, not because of it. Sorry I don't have any actual figures for you!!!! As for the tip tackle, lifting head above waist etc I think its a very grey area. However I will argue that this is not the only way to put a massive hit in and is one of the many skills involved in the game. Accidents happen but if you can't tackle within the rules of the game, don't play.

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 8:53 pm

kinda a soft red card if there is such thing :P, desrves red but not a true spear, as i dont believe he drove his shoulders or head into the ground.

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 8:53 pm

kinda a soft red card if there is such thing :P, desrves red but not a true spear, as i dont believe he drove his shoulders or head into the ground.

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 9:08 pm

Did anyone see that Samoan running past the England player on the floor and kicking his head? Coward's act - if you want to hurt someone, have the balls to do it when they're on their feet and looking at you.

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 9:08 pm

Did anyone see that Samoan running past the England player on the floor and kicking his head? Coward's act - if you want to hurt someone, have the balls to do it when they're on their feet and looking at you.

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(u-p)rick February 09, 2011 9:37 pm

I hate to say this, but apparently it is clearly necessary to. Can anyone remember when common sense stated landing on the head/neck was a good idea. Isn't that why when we jump off things we choose to land on our feet? and rarely choose to land on our heads...?

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(u-p)rick February 09, 2011 9:37 pm

I hate to say this, but apparently it is clearly necessary to. Can anyone remember when common sense stated landing on the head/neck was a good idea. Isn't that why when we jump off things we choose to land on our feet? and rarely choose to land on our heads...?

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Resident Troll February 09, 2011 9:42 pm

'Did anyone see that Samoan running past the England player on the floor and kicking his head? Coward's act - if you want to hurt someone, have the balls to do it when they're on their feet and looking at you.'

That's some feat, how an England player managed to get on the pitch and play for Fiji is pretty outstanding, let alone manage to get himself kicked in the head...

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Resident Troll February 09, 2011 9:42 pm

'Did anyone see that Samoan running past the England player on the floor and kicking his head? Coward's act - if you want to hurt someone, have the balls to do it when they're on their feet and looking at you.'

That's some feat, how an England player managed to get on the pitch and play for Fiji is pretty outstanding, let alone manage to get himself kicked in the head...

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 9:47 pm

What is it with the Fijians and these types of tackles? Saw some awful ones from Fiji in the last RWC too. Not meaning to specifically scapegoat them, but as a team they do seem to commit fouls like this on a regular basis. Red is a decent shout on this one.

Anyone who says a tackle like this is OK is probably an armchair athlete who doesn't fully understand how dangerous they are. As someone else said earlier no-one needs a broken neck.

As for the Fijians and other repeat offenders with tackles like this - they should learn the rules or not play at all.

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 9:47 pm

What is it with the Fijians and these types of tackles? Saw some awful ones from Fiji in the last RWC too. Not meaning to specifically scapegoat them, but as a team they do seem to commit fouls like this on a regular basis. Red is a decent shout on this one.

Anyone who says a tackle like this is OK is probably an armchair athlete who doesn't fully understand how dangerous they are. As someone else said earlier no-one needs a broken neck.

As for the Fijians and other repeat offenders with tackles like this - they should learn the rules or not play at all.

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 9:49 pm

Gotta love the push and shove after a dangerous tackle then they all just walk away. IQ's in the double digits.

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Anonymous February 09, 2011 9:49 pm

Gotta love the push and shove after a dangerous tackle then they all just walk away. IQ's in the double digits.

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F February 09, 2011 10:04 pm

That's not what I was getting at (u-p)rick. You know what the more I watch it the less viscious the contact seems with the ground. Burotu doesn't drive his head or neck into the ground. That's when I believe a red is due.. Tuqiri on McCaw kind of tackle.. The BOD incident is irrelevant because it was off the ball. So why have the irb put a ban on something that has in the history of rugby NEVER happened.

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F February 09, 2011 10:04 pm

That's not what I was getting at (u-p)rick. You know what the more I watch it the less viscious the contact seems with the ground. Burotu doesn't drive his head or neck into the ground. That's when I believe a red is due.. Tuqiri on McCaw kind of tackle.. The BOD incident is irrelevant because it was off the ball. So why have the irb put a ban on something that has in the history of rugby NEVER happened.

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F February 09, 2011 10:06 pm

'something' being serious neck or head injury in the tackle.

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F February 09, 2011 10:06 pm

'something' being serious neck or head injury in the tackle.

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(u-p)rick February 09, 2011 10:20 pm

....so F did you watch the tiquiri macaw tackle and think, 'wow what an awesome hit' or did you think, 'fuck me macaw was lucky there' ?

Because personally i thought he was lucky not to have broken his neck...

Like I said, it's easier to threaten any similarities with a red card and hopefully eradicate this from the game than to pussyfoot about trying to decide whether it could be a red/yellow/penalty on a neckbreaker/no neck breaker....

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(u-p)rick February 09, 2011 10:20 pm

....so F did you watch the tiquiri macaw tackle and think, 'wow what an awesome hit' or did you think, 'fuck me macaw was lucky there' ?

Because personally i thought he was lucky not to have broken his neck...

Like I said, it's easier to threaten any similarities with a red card and hopefully eradicate this from the game than to pussyfoot about trying to decide whether it could be a red/yellow/penalty on a neckbreaker/no neck breaker....

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Nathan February 09, 2011 10:49 pm

This is somewhat irrelevant to the video (we nearly all agree that this is a straight red anyway), but how is yellow card handled in 7s rugby ? Is it 10 min to the sin bin like in XV ? It would seem a bit harsh as this is like 2/3rd of the match length... any clue, anyone ?

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Nathan February 09, 2011 10:49 pm

This is somewhat irrelevant to the video (we nearly all agree that this is a straight red anyway), but how is yellow card handled in 7s rugby ? Is it 10 min to the sin bin like in XV ? It would seem a bit harsh as this is like 2/3rd of the match length... any clue, anyone ?

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Tom February 09, 2011 10:54 pm

I'm normally crying foul about cards in the game (because there are far too many of them and tackles are being pulled up for no reason) but in this case I agree that it's a spear tackle, it's dangerous.
I personally would be fine with a yellow card, but red is ok, considering it's a sevens game.

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Tom February 09, 2011 10:54 pm

I'm normally crying foul about cards in the game (because there are far too many of them and tackles are being pulled up for no reason) but in this case I agree that it's a spear tackle, it's dangerous.
I personally would be fine with a yellow card, but red is ok, considering it's a sevens game.

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Kenji February 09, 2011 11:19 pm

That's a fine tackle, why are people getting so soft in the tackle area these days.

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Kenji February 09, 2011 11:19 pm

That's a fine tackle, why are people getting so soft in the tackle area these days.

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The Frenchman February 10, 2011 12:31 am

Stop saying there never were serious injuries caused by that kind of tackles : there were. Oh, not in the elite levels, where players have physical abilities and skills to avoid serious injuries. But below, in what we call here "rugby des villages", when people of a little community meet their neighbours and stupid old nonsense conflicts come back to surface during the game... Or just because of hot-blooded rough guys, like a tragic brawl out of a night-club... Oh yes, there were ! But... maybe it's a French specialty ?!

Need a rule ? In my point of view, this is THE question. Yes, "because you cannot red card him if it's not illegal", you say u(p)rick ? I disagree. It is illegal if the referee judges so.
Before that rule was writen, some referees where severely punishing that kind of tackles already. And nobody did complain about it ! That was right. What we need is just good, responsible, confident referees.
Referees of today are not worse than those of yesterday - in fact, they often are much better (even if they don't speak french). So the reason why they need to rely on such rules is not because of their lack of competence. It is because of all those coaches (shame on them !), managers, sponsors, penpushers... always criticizing rhe referees' decisions as soon as they don't serve them. To stop all these cavillers, arguers, who spend their times with lawyers just to put pressure on referees and always find a camera or a mike to drool and cry into, there had to be a rule, a written one. Only way to says what is right or wrong... but finally creating more arguing !

Ah, yes : these guys bring cash. And cash brings TV, brings stars... But why do they bring cash (and where does all this miraculous cash come from...)? Do they serve rugby, or do they use it ?

You know, maybe our Top 14 is the best competition in the world. But with that kind of guys ruling, how long will it last ?

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The Frenchman February 10, 2011 12:31 am

Stop saying there never were serious injuries caused by that kind of tackles : there were. Oh, not in the elite levels, where players have physical abilities and skills to avoid serious injuries. But below, in what we call here "rugby des villages", when people of a little community meet their neighbours and stupid old nonsense conflicts come back to surface during the game... Or just because of hot-blooded rough guys, like a tragic brawl out of a night-club... Oh yes, there were ! But... maybe it's a French specialty ?!

Need a rule ? In my point of view, this is THE question. Yes, "because you cannot red card him if it's not illegal", you say u(p)rick ? I disagree. It is illegal if the referee judges so.
Before that rule was writen, some referees where severely punishing that kind of tackles already. And nobody did complain about it ! That was right. What we need is just good, responsible, confident referees.
Referees of today are not worse than those of yesterday - in fact, they often are much better (even if they don't speak french). So the reason why they need to rely on such rules is not because of their lack of competence. It is because of all those coaches (shame on them !), managers, sponsors, penpushers... always criticizing rhe referees' decisions as soon as they don't serve them. To stop all these cavillers, arguers, who spend their times with lawyers just to put pressure on referees and always find a camera or a mike to drool and cry into, there had to be a rule, a written one. Only way to says what is right or wrong... but finally creating more arguing !

Ah, yes : these guys bring cash. And cash brings TV, brings stars... But why do they bring cash (and where does all this miraculous cash come from...)? Do they serve rugby, or do they use it ?

You know, maybe our Top 14 is the best competition in the world. But with that kind of guys ruling, how long will it last ?

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The Frenchman February 10, 2011 12:32 am

...and as always, sorry for my english ! (and for such a long post)

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The Frenchman February 10, 2011 12:32 am

...and as always, sorry for my english ! (and for such a long post)

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Anonymous February 10, 2011 12:33 am

granted that was a red card but a little consistency please because that other samoan player came and cleaned Burotu out while he was on the ground..thats a definite yellow card!

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Anonymous February 10, 2011 12:33 am

granted that was a red card but a little consistency please because that other samoan player came and cleaned Burotu out while he was on the ground..thats a definite yellow card!

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(u-p)rick February 10, 2011 1:17 am

'Need a rule ? In my point of view, this is THE question. Yes, "because you cannot red card him if it's not illegal", you say u(p)rick ? I disagree. It is illegal if the referee judges so.

I disagree entirely with your comment. Yes fciyrsr the game is all down to the judgement of one man (the referee) but he has, let's not forget, found his position after lots of homework and lawbook studying. Is passing gas in a scrum illegal? I'm yet to find it in the rules, and I have yet to see any body carded for such a horrible offence. However you can bet your boots if you told a referee to stick his head in a scrum after someone has passed gas I'm side he would 'judge' it as highly offensive.

So all in all the rule book sets the rules and the referee interprets the rules... He does not however make it up as he goes along and produce cards on what he does or does not deem an offense.

Just to add, this is why we see players being carded for 'striking an opponent' rather than 'punching' because it is up to the referee to interpret whether a 'slap' is sufficient enough to warrant a card...

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(u-p)rick February 10, 2011 1:17 am

'Need a rule ? In my point of view, this is THE question. Yes, "because you cannot red card him if it's not illegal", you say u(p)rick ? I disagree. It is illegal if the referee judges so.

I disagree entirely with your comment. Yes fciyrsr the game is all down to the judgement of one man (the referee) but he has, let's not forget, found his position after lots of homework and lawbook studying. Is passing gas in a scrum illegal? I'm yet to find it in the rules, and I have yet to see any body carded for such a horrible offence. However you can bet your boots if you told a referee to stick his head in a scrum after someone has passed gas I'm side he would 'judge' it as highly offensive.

So all in all the rule book sets the rules and the referee interprets the rules... He does not however make it up as he goes along and produce cards on what he does or does not deem an offense.

Just to add, this is why we see players being carded for 'striking an opponent' rather than 'punching' because it is up to the referee to interpret whether a 'slap' is sufficient enough to warrant a card...

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TB February 10, 2011 1:22 am

"It's a red because it's illegal." So change the rules and make it legal! Lifting in lineouts used to be illegal too.

They change the rules every year anyway. This stuff with bans handed out after every game is not cool.

If you go into conatact high you DESERVE to be dumped. At least I do!

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TB February 10, 2011 1:22 am

"It's a red because it's illegal." So change the rules and make it legal! Lifting in lineouts used to be illegal too.

They change the rules every year anyway. This stuff with bans handed out after every game is not cool.

If you go into conatact high you DESERVE to be dumped. At least I do!

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Tom February 10, 2011 1:37 am

Just quickly, anyone who thinks you can ever card or penalise this kind of tackle out fo the game is completely wrong.
You can certainly discourage it and that has already been done. No one would intentionally spear anyone anymore.
But people who think this way seem to ahve absolutley no idea just how easy it is to accidentaly spear tackle someone.
It's happens by accident, in a split second. It will always happen occaisonally, by accident.
So punish it sure (but make damn sure you're punishing actual spear tackles, not just completely safe tackles where a guy loses his feet), but realise it will never disapear completely, ever. Just like head highs.

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Tom February 10, 2011 1:37 am

Just quickly, anyone who thinks you can ever card or penalise this kind of tackle out fo the game is completely wrong.
You can certainly discourage it and that has already been done. No one would intentionally spear anyone anymore.
But people who think this way seem to ahve absolutley no idea just how easy it is to accidentaly spear tackle someone.
It's happens by accident, in a split second. It will always happen occaisonally, by accident.
So punish it sure (but make damn sure you're punishing actual spear tackles, not just completely safe tackles where a guy loses his feet), but realise it will never disapear completely, ever. Just like head highs.

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Anonymous February 10, 2011 1:59 am

Question.. why are people impressed with dump tackles?? I've seen many times where someone is picked up and legally dumped then I hear people go crazy!!! It really isn't that impressive. It doesn't take much strength, brains or guts to execute.

For example, Bryan Habana on Mose Tuialii..

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Anonymous February 10, 2011 1:59 am

Question.. why are people impressed with dump tackles?? I've seen many times where someone is picked up and legally dumped then I hear people go crazy!!! It really isn't that impressive. It doesn't take much strength, brains or guts to execute.

For example, Bryan Habana on Mose Tuialii..

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Tom February 10, 2011 2:06 am

Jesus, that's like asking why people like rugby?
Cuz it's awesome when someone smashes someone else in a tackle.
It means one player has lost the physical battle at the tackle.

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Tom February 10, 2011 2:06 am

Jesus, that's like asking why people like rugby?
Cuz it's awesome when someone smashes someone else in a tackle.
It means one player has lost the physical battle at the tackle.

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(u-p)rick February 10, 2011 3:11 am

Tom, ofcourse, i totally get what you mean, it can never be got out of the game completely...

ofcourse an instant red is a 'scare' but some people will do it etc, and ofcourse accidents.

HOWEVER!!! i know when i tackle someone if they are going to leave the ground sufficiently enough to land on their head/neck...and i know when they are going to be driven back on their arse. (or roll over my shoulder..etc.etc.etc...) you just know it...

if you take the risk to lift someone up then ofcourse you run the risk of a red if it goes wrong...

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(u-p)rick February 10, 2011 3:11 am

Tom, ofcourse, i totally get what you mean, it can never be got out of the game completely...

ofcourse an instant red is a 'scare' but some people will do it etc, and ofcourse accidents.

HOWEVER!!! i know when i tackle someone if they are going to leave the ground sufficiently enough to land on their head/neck...and i know when they are going to be driven back on their arse. (or roll over my shoulder..etc.etc.etc...) you just know it...

if you take the risk to lift someone up then ofcourse you run the risk of a red if it goes wrong...

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Anonymous February 10, 2011 3:48 am

Second Fijian to be "red carded" in IRB Sevens for Dangerous Tackling...First was Rupeni Caucau against Australia in 2001 where he was banned from playing 7s Rugby....and now Burotu...whats up with all the New Rules...I understand its for Safety measures but this kinda tackling makes RUGBY different from any other sport...Next thing we'll know Rugby will be like Football with all helmets and pads....

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Anonymous February 10, 2011 3:48 am

Second Fijian to be "red carded" in IRB Sevens for Dangerous Tackling...First was Rupeni Caucau against Australia in 2001 where he was banned from playing 7s Rugby....and now Burotu...whats up with all the New Rules...I understand its for Safety measures but this kinda tackling makes RUGBY different from any other sport...Next thing we'll know Rugby will be like Football with all helmets and pads....

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Tom February 10, 2011 3:55 am

Look Uprick, I agree that care can be taken to an extent, and what I believe is that players actually do that now.
Almost no player, particularly a pro, will intentionally drop a guy on his head or neck.
Sometimes it will happen by accident and certainly, it should be punished.
But not always by a red card.
And the real problem at the moment is that, particularly in Europe, players are now being penalised and carded (even banned) for tackles which simply aren't spears, aren't dangerous and have been legal for the entire history of the game.
It's a problem, in my view.
This particular tackle was a spear, and dangerous, but just cuz a guy gets lifted, doesn;t make it a spear tackle. 90% of the time a lifting tackle is actually a perfectly executed hit.

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Tom February 10, 2011 3:55 am

Look Uprick, I agree that care can be taken to an extent, and what I believe is that players actually do that now.
Almost no player, particularly a pro, will intentionally drop a guy on his head or neck.
Sometimes it will happen by accident and certainly, it should be punished.
But not always by a red card.
And the real problem at the moment is that, particularly in Europe, players are now being penalised and carded (even banned) for tackles which simply aren't spears, aren't dangerous and have been legal for the entire history of the game.
It's a problem, in my view.
This particular tackle was a spear, and dangerous, but just cuz a guy gets lifted, doesn;t make it a spear tackle. 90% of the time a lifting tackle is actually a perfectly executed hit.

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Von February 10, 2011 8:34 am

(u-p)rick said...
Is passing gas in a scrum illegal? I'm yet to find it in the rules, and I have yet to see any body carded for such a horrible offence. However you can bet your boots if you told a referee to stick his head in a scrum after someone has passed gas I'm side he would 'judge' it as highly offensive.


WTF???

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Von February 10, 2011 8:34 am

(u-p)rick said...
Is passing gas in a scrum illegal? I'm yet to find it in the rules, and I have yet to see any body carded for such a horrible offence. However you can bet your boots if you told a referee to stick his head in a scrum after someone has passed gas I'm side he would 'judge' it as highly offensive.


WTF???

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samitarugby February 10, 2011 8:47 am

I admire in rugby how when sent off players don't argue back or shout at the referee, they admit their mistake. not unlike most sports!

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samitarugby February 10, 2011 8:47 am

I admire in rugby how when sent off players don't argue back or shout at the referee, they admit their mistake. not unlike most sports!

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Anonymous February 10, 2011 9:23 am

great hit! bad tackle..

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Anonymous February 10, 2011 9:23 am

great hit! bad tackle..

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(u-p)rick February 10, 2011 10:16 am

Tom, then the whole point is to educate the referees as to some big tackles so that they see the difference. Picking up a player to dump them is unnecessary... It gives them a chance to offload, and ofcourse you run the risk of it going wrong.

Von, my comment was a reference to someone saying the referee can card whatever he judges, or something like that...

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(u-p)rick February 10, 2011 10:16 am

Tom, then the whole point is to educate the referees as to some big tackles so that they see the difference. Picking up a player to dump them is unnecessary... It gives them a chance to offload, and ofcourse you run the risk of it going wrong.

Von, my comment was a reference to someone saying the referee can card whatever he judges, or something like that...

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Anonymous February 10, 2011 12:37 pm

Everyone agrees this is a red card. Lifting players is clearly dangerous and can leave them with broken necks

It's big shoulder hits with questionable arms that alot of people don't care about.

Tip tackles are dangerous as hell, they should be outlawed along with scrums

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Anonymous February 10, 2011 12:37 pm

Everyone agrees this is a red card. Lifting players is clearly dangerous and can leave them with broken necks

It's big shoulder hits with questionable arms that alot of people don't care about.

Tip tackles are dangerous as hell, they should be outlawed along with scrums

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Von February 10, 2011 12:39 pm

I see....
I think....

Anyway, I take my hat off to you, both for that gloriously random analogy and your apparent sense of moral outrage at the passing of gas in the scrum.

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Von February 10, 2011 12:39 pm

I see....
I think....

Anyway, I take my hat off to you, both for that gloriously random analogy and your apparent sense of moral outrage at the passing of gas in the scrum.

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Von February 10, 2011 12:41 pm

Anonymous said...
.......should be outlawed along with scrums


I'm not sure you're following the right sport?

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Von February 10, 2011 12:41 pm

Anonymous said...
.......should be outlawed along with scrums


I'm not sure you're following the right sport?

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Gav February 10, 2011 2:08 pm

I like how certain people here think the IRB should wait until a few people are paralysed or killed by spear tackles, and then ban them.

You'd know they weren't actual players putting themselves at risk, but are happy to watch other people risk their lives.

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Gav February 10, 2011 2:08 pm

I like how certain people here think the IRB should wait until a few people are paralysed or killed by spear tackles, and then ban them.

You'd know they weren't actual players putting themselves at risk, but are happy to watch other people risk their lives.

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rememberthemer February 10, 2011 4:06 pm

Kiwi league player Jarrod McCracken had his career ended by a spear tackle which fractured some verterbrae.

They've always been illegal, I remember Lomu being yellow carded against the Warratahs for one. But nobody cared unless they were real bad.

That changed with the maiming of ST BOD of the Lions ((TM) Alistair Campbell,) and the endless hand wringing that followed/follows.

It's not much use waiting till someone does have their neck broken, because a hefty suspension of the guilty party is not much consolation when I am a quadraplegic. Laws exist to prevent bad shit, not to punish it. The law lords have gone over the top of course, but better that than having to read about valiant BOD/dastardly Umaga in every second Rugby blog for the past 6 years

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rememberthemer February 10, 2011 4:06 pm

Kiwi league player Jarrod McCracken had his career ended by a spear tackle which fractured some verterbrae.

They've always been illegal, I remember Lomu being yellow carded against the Warratahs for one. But nobody cared unless they were real bad.

That changed with the maiming of ST BOD of the Lions ((TM) Alistair Campbell,) and the endless hand wringing that followed/follows.

It's not much use waiting till someone does have their neck broken, because a hefty suspension of the guilty party is not much consolation when I am a quadraplegic. Laws exist to prevent bad shit, not to punish it. The law lords have gone over the top of course, but better that than having to read about valiant BOD/dastardly Umaga in every second Rugby blog for the past 6 years

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(u-p)rick February 10, 2011 5:30 pm

Von....May I ask what position you play?

I only ask due to the fact that I am a second row...now there are a few things which I really don't appreciate:

Firstly, When our top choice props are off or injured so we get a fat sweaty git.

Secondly, When that fat sweaty git hasn't washed his fat sweaty shorts from the last game where his fat sweaty ass turned them into a soaking mass...(only to have them semi dry out in a kit bag)

Thirdly, the binding technique of through the legs, when the fat sweaty ball of lard is wearing etc etc etc...

and Lastly, when that particular chap decides to fart in a scrum...

I would like to say it is a good tactic as the opposition pack comes reeling away from the scrum wretching...but for the fact that our pack follows similar suit!

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(u-p)rick February 10, 2011 5:30 pm

Von....May I ask what position you play?

I only ask due to the fact that I am a second row...now there are a few things which I really don't appreciate:

Firstly, When our top choice props are off or injured so we get a fat sweaty git.

Secondly, When that fat sweaty git hasn't washed his fat sweaty shorts from the last game where his fat sweaty ass turned them into a soaking mass...(only to have them semi dry out in a kit bag)

Thirdly, the binding technique of through the legs, when the fat sweaty ball of lard is wearing etc etc etc...

and Lastly, when that particular chap decides to fart in a scrum...

I would like to say it is a good tactic as the opposition pack comes reeling away from the scrum wretching...but for the fact that our pack follows similar suit!

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(u-p)rick February 10, 2011 5:31 pm

p.s...

not to mention his arse is aimed at our team...or more specifically, MY SHOULDER!

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(u-p)rick February 10, 2011 5:31 pm

p.s...

not to mention his arse is aimed at our team...or more specifically, MY SHOULDER!

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Anonymous February 10, 2011 5:56 pm

Rubgy is becoming a game of pussies.
I think that it was a great tackle. He didn't land on his neck.

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Anonymous February 10, 2011 5:56 pm

Rubgy is becoming a game of pussies.
I think that it was a great tackle. He didn't land on his neck.

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Believer February 10, 2011 8:43 pm

Haven't had a chance to read ALL the posts so i hope this hasn't been mentioned, but regards the "lift a player beyond the horizontal = RED" every time, surely there has to be SOME room for interpretation.

I know that is where the reffing inconsistencies come in, but there are plenty of cases where simple momentum causes a tackled player to flip (not in this case mind you) beyond the 180 degrees. SO long as the tackler brings him to ground safely, surely such incicdents should be let go?

I remember a few years ago when Scotland played Ireland in Dublin, Ross Rennie (might have been his debut) put in a great tackle on Brian O Driscol. Thing was, he got so low that he almost hit his ankles, and Dricco was going so fast that as Rennie moved into the hit, Dricco literally flipped right over the top of him in a somersault! Can't remember if a pen was given, but certainly there was no card, and rightly so, but i can't help but fear that if that happened today it would be a red card!

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Believer February 10, 2011 8:43 pm

Haven't had a chance to read ALL the posts so i hope this hasn't been mentioned, but regards the "lift a player beyond the horizontal = RED" every time, surely there has to be SOME room for interpretation.

I know that is where the reffing inconsistencies come in, but there are plenty of cases where simple momentum causes a tackled player to flip (not in this case mind you) beyond the 180 degrees. SO long as the tackler brings him to ground safely, surely such incicdents should be let go?

I remember a few years ago when Scotland played Ireland in Dublin, Ross Rennie (might have been his debut) put in a great tackle on Brian O Driscol. Thing was, he got so low that he almost hit his ankles, and Dricco was going so fast that as Rennie moved into the hit, Dricco literally flipped right over the top of him in a somersault! Can't remember if a pen was given, but certainly there was no card, and rightly so, but i can't help but fear that if that happened today it would be a red card!

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Tom February 10, 2011 10:27 pm

Ben Darwin almost died in a scrum against NZ int he WC semi-final 2003. Should we ban scrums?
Players have been crippled by tackles, should we ban tackles?

I'm not saying we should allow spears, but lifting in the tackle has literally ALWAYS been legal, for over 100 years of playing rugby.

Spear tackels are banned, not lifting a guy.

Honestly, wtf? Why play or watch rugby if you're gonna be a wowser about it?

Lifting in a tackle is ususally a perfectly executed tackle. It's part of the game, always has been.
You can't say it's unnessesary, it's like saying scrums are unessesary (I always misspell that word).

And it usually doesn;t allow an offload.

If you're gonna be serious about rugby, you;ve got to understand that sometimes people will get hurt badly playing. It's rare (no one has been seriously injured by a spear tackle in recent memory in pro rugby)these days for someone to get hurt by a spear. But it might happen, just like you might break your neck in a scrum or get your arm dislocated in a ruck.

If you're gonna ban all lifting tackles, seriously, ban scrums, rucks and tackles altogether.

Just basically stop playing rugby.

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Tom February 10, 2011 10:27 pm

Ben Darwin almost died in a scrum against NZ int he WC semi-final 2003. Should we ban scrums?
Players have been crippled by tackles, should we ban tackles?

I'm not saying we should allow spears, but lifting in the tackle has literally ALWAYS been legal, for over 100 years of playing rugby.

Spear tackels are banned, not lifting a guy.

Honestly, wtf? Why play or watch rugby if you're gonna be a wowser about it?

Lifting in a tackle is ususally a perfectly executed tackle. It's part of the game, always has been.
You can't say it's unnessesary, it's like saying scrums are unessesary (I always misspell that word).

And it usually doesn;t allow an offload.

If you're gonna be serious about rugby, you;ve got to understand that sometimes people will get hurt badly playing. It's rare (no one has been seriously injured by a spear tackle in recent memory in pro rugby)these days for someone to get hurt by a spear. But it might happen, just like you might break your neck in a scrum or get your arm dislocated in a ruck.

If you're gonna ban all lifting tackles, seriously, ban scrums, rucks and tackles altogether.

Just basically stop playing rugby.

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Anonymous February 10, 2011 10:38 pm

yeh, shame cos he got in a great position for a legal hit. loved the way he just jogged off, they love a good red card

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Anonymous February 10, 2011 10:38 pm

yeh, shame cos he got in a great position for a legal hit. loved the way he just jogged off, they love a good red card

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Von February 11, 2011 7:27 am

@(u-p)rick - Fair play, you have my sympathy and admiration for sticking at it! Rucks aside, fortunately I've never had the misfortune of putting my head in such close proximity to a prop's smelly arse. As someone who usually ponces around in the backs, the closest I've got to the middle of a scrum is scrum-half and, I must admit, the general aroma even from there can be pretty unpleasant.

Anyway, you're absolutely right. We should stop banging on about dangerous tackles etc and call on the IRB to clamp down on gassy-arsed props. :)

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Von February 11, 2011 7:27 am

@(u-p)rick - Fair play, you have my sympathy and admiration for sticking at it! Rucks aside, fortunately I've never had the misfortune of putting my head in such close proximity to a prop's smelly arse. As someone who usually ponces around in the backs, the closest I've got to the middle of a scrum is scrum-half and, I must admit, the general aroma even from there can be pretty unpleasant.

Anyway, you're absolutely right. We should stop banging on about dangerous tackles etc and call on the IRB to clamp down on gassy-arsed props. :)

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rugbymad February 11, 2011 12:45 pm

No need to drop him like that could have been alot worse. Needs to be cut out with players and hits only getting bigger.

http://80rugby.blogspot.com/

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rugbymad February 11, 2011 12:45 pm

No need to drop him like that could have been alot worse. Needs to be cut out with players and hits only getting bigger.

http://80rugby.blogspot.com/

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Off February 11, 2011 12:50 pm

Dangerous. Red.

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Off February 11, 2011 12:50 pm

Dangerous. Red.

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Anonymous February 12, 2011 5:38 pm

"what is it with Fijians and these types of tackles?"

HUH? HELLO! this is Samoa we're playing. Do you have anything to say about South African's as well?

The red card was warranted, it's rugby, shit happens.

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Anonymous February 12, 2011 5:38 pm

"what is it with Fijians and these types of tackles?"

HUH? HELLO! this is Samoa we're playing. Do you have anything to say about South African's as well?

The red card was warranted, it's rugby, shit happens.

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