Thursday, March 17, 2011
Matt Banahan big charge knocks out Kelly Brown
Matt Banahan will be Mike Tindalls outside centre replacement when England face Ireland in Dublin this coming weekend. Against Scotland Banahan showed that despite his inexperience in Test rugby, he's capable of making an impact.
The upcoming game against Ireland, all important as England seek out a Six Nations Grand Slam, will only be his second start at outside centre for his country, so its a make or break type of scenario, especially when you consider who the opposing midfield consists of.
Weve seen what a physical presence he can be though, and while some viewed his charge into Scotland flank Kelly Brown as dangerous, Banahan himself denied there was any malice in it. It has since been dismissed, without an official citing even taking place.
It did look as though the initial contact might have been with the shoulder, but there was a leading forearm that may or may not have done some damage too. Whatever the case, Brown out cold for a while, before being carried off on a stretcher.
He later made a good recovery, with team doctor James Robson saying on Monday that Brown had been concussed, but was in good spirits. He has now been cleared to play against Italy in Scotlands final Six Nations game at Murrayfield on Saturday.
Nick Easter take over from Tindall as captain of England for their clash with Ireland.
Time: 01:27
Posted at 12:37 pm | 51 comments
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Posted in Big Hits & Dirty Play
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Viewing 51 comments
Von March 17, 2011 12:46 pm
Banahan's a monster. Nothing wrong with what he did here.
Nice quote in the Telegaph:
The Bath player has spoken to Brown, who was reported to be in good spirits, on Monday. He said he might have got his head in the wrong place, but these kinds of thing happen; its a contact sport, said Banahan. Everyone gets knocked out in rugby. Accidents happen. Im not going to run softly for fear of hurting people. I just wish him well for a speedy recovery".
Youve got to play to your strengths, said Banahan. People like to see me running hard and smashing people but I can pass.
Nice quote in the Telegaph:
The Bath player has spoken to Brown, who was reported to be in good spirits, on Monday. He said he might have got his head in the wrong place, but these kinds of thing happen; its a contact sport, said Banahan. Everyone gets knocked out in rugby. Accidents happen. Im not going to run softly for fear of hurting people. I just wish him well for a speedy recovery".
Youve got to play to your strengths, said Banahan. People like to see me running hard and smashing people but I can pass.
Nathan March 17, 2011 12:59 pm
elbow!!!
i think someone needs to start singing the nursery rhyme again!
Head's, shoulder's, knee's and toes,...
i think someone needs to start singing the nursery rhyme again!
Head's, shoulder's, knee's and toes,...
zulusaar March 17, 2011 1:04 pm
He may not have lead with the forearm but he did use it be force Brown away which is totally illegal!
Anonymous March 17, 2011 1:05 pm
Banahan is one of those guys who has the size but are too soft to play in the forward pack. You can just imagine him standing in the backline instead of hitting the rucks, not very tough, sorry.
I'm the winner.
I'm the winner.
jackohos March 17, 2011 1:11 pm
Anonymous: Yawn.
Banahan used to be a second row but was spotted by Brian Ashton for being so quick.
He also smashes a forward out of the game in the clip. Gawd, he must be so soft...
Banahan used to be a second row but was spotted by Brian Ashton for being so quick.
He also smashes a forward out of the game in the clip. Gawd, he must be so soft...
Bradders March 17, 2011 1:14 pm
you're the winner hey...don't think so.
He is a back - you want him in the back line. At the point of contact brown was just too high and im sure if there was malice in it he would be cited as we all know how keen they are to provide a little "time off" for anything too serious.
He will hit every ruck he has to like any player at this level should.
He is a back - you want him in the back line. At the point of contact brown was just too high and im sure if there was malice in it he would be cited as we all know how keen they are to provide a little "time off" for anything too serious.
He will hit every ruck he has to like any player at this level should.
Von March 17, 2011 1:19 pm
Have the people claiming "elbow" actually watched the video?
Anyway, clearly it was not deemed illegal by the citing commissioner, whose opinion is the only one that really matters, despite all the uproar by various media stirrers.
Anyway, clearly it was not deemed illegal by the citing commissioner, whose opinion is the only one that really matters, despite all the uproar by various media stirrers.
coops March 17, 2011 1:25 pm
Has anyone who thinks this is bad ever seen Lomu play? This was how he went through people. He took the contact and drove people away using his forearms and momentum.
This was a forearm PUSH, and not a smash. The initial contact was with the shoulder, and the forearm pushed him down. If he had swung his arm and hit Brown as the first point of contact, then he would have a case to answer.
This was a forearm PUSH, and not a smash. The initial contact was with the shoulder, and the forearm pushed him down. If he had swung his arm and hit Brown as the first point of contact, then he would have a case to answer.
paper tiger March 17, 2011 1:32 pm
accidental combined a poor tackling technique.
go high against a guy like banahan and you're asking for it.
the forearm looked worse as he was expecting to have to try and lever the defender off the tackle - little did he know the 8 was already sparked out.
go high against a guy like banahan and you're asking for it.
the forearm looked worse as he was expecting to have to try and lever the defender off the tackle - little did he know the 8 was already sparked out.
wow-jiffy-lube March 17, 2011 1:35 pm
Brown had his head on the wrong side of the tackle, it was always going to hurt. It was just unfortunate that he was up against Banahan.
Anonymous March 17, 2011 2:04 pm
well jonah was a forward who had a crap work rate
Anonymous March 17, 2011 2:10 pm
Was there really a possibility of him being cited for this? Would have been a bad call if he had been. This was a clear example of the consequences of a poor tackle. Brown's head was in the wrong place and Banahan is just way too big for bad tackles. Even a good tackle on a guy that size moving that fast will hurt.
Interesting prospect: Banahan vs. Robbie Fruean. My money's on Fruean.
Interesting prospect: Banahan vs. Robbie Fruean. My money's on Fruean.
Christ March 17, 2011 2:45 pm
"Banahan is one of those guys who has the size but are too soft to play in the forward pack."
He used to play second row, and was an animal for Jersey! Plus if you watch him play and he is near a ruck he constantly hits it. Why would you want your backs hitting rucks if they didn't have to anyway, just leaves space/forwards in the back line!
He used to play second row, and was an animal for Jersey! Plus if you watch him play and he is near a ruck he constantly hits it. Why would you want your backs hitting rucks if they didn't have to anyway, just leaves space/forwards in the back line!
Alexander March 17, 2011 2:53 pm
how has Kelly Brown got on? Hope he recovers for next week!
P.S. My money would be on Fruen too, he's absolutely brilliant!!!
P.S. My money would be on Fruen too, he's absolutely brilliant!!!
Anonymous March 17, 2011 2:56 pm
I think it's actually when his head hits the ground that he gets knocked out.
Steve Munford March 17, 2011 2:59 pm
It was quite right in my opinion that he didn't receive a suspension. There was nothing illegal in it, if anything it was Kelly Brown's own fault. However, it is good to see he has made a speedy recovery and is available for the Italy match on Saturday.
Anonymous March 17, 2011 3:24 pm
If had had made his tackle lower arong the midriff, he'd have been much better off. Tackle low, tackle low, tackle low.
Nick March 17, 2011 3:28 pm
Don't see anything wrong with this. Brown followed the play as it swept one way, as Banahan cut back inside Brown wasn't expecting it but tried to put the tackle in. Head on the wrong side and it ended up being time for a little nap.
It's a shame but unfortunate. Why do seem people feel the need to apportion blame in every situation? I hope Brown is fit for the weekend because him and Grey have been the forward line breakers for Scotland.
It's a shame but unfortunate. Why do seem people feel the need to apportion blame in every situation? I hope Brown is fit for the weekend because him and Grey have been the forward line breakers for Scotland.
Nick March 17, 2011 3:31 pm
'If had had made his tackle lower arong the midriff, he'd have been much better off. Tackle low, tackle low, tackle low.'
Have you ever played rugby? does it look like he had time to make that decision? Brown went for the closest thing he could in a split second, ok it didn't work out, but I'm guessing the other option was no tackle.
Have you ever played rugby? does it look like he had time to make that decision? Brown went for the closest thing he could in a split second, ok it didn't work out, but I'm guessing the other option was no tackle.
Eire go Bre March 17, 2011 3:44 pm
Nick, you're right no time to adjust there, what you're reading are comments from the playback section who don't seem to get the difference between slow mo and real-time.
Most players try for that sort of collision when they think they can pull it off or gain yards. When it's the Italian scrum half on Philips it's "brave", and you get a whole round of "fair play to him"s. When it's Banahan it's dangerous play? Come on! As for him being soft, well that just smacks of trolling to me.
Anyway, I hope Darcy shakes the cobwebs and doesn't leave BOD on his own in defence this weekend! Come on Ireland!
Most players try for that sort of collision when they think they can pull it off or gain yards. When it's the Italian scrum half on Philips it's "brave", and you get a whole round of "fair play to him"s. When it's Banahan it's dangerous play? Come on! As for him being soft, well that just smacks of trolling to me.
Anyway, I hope Darcy shakes the cobwebs and doesn't leave BOD on his own in defence this weekend! Come on Ireland!
Colombes March 17, 2011 3:59 pm
No elbow and no malicious action for me. He is chargin with his arm
Brown was unlucky to take his shoulder and wasn't in the good posture to make a good impact.
that said, i remember a lot of malicious and dangerous cases of elbow charges. i remember two: Smit elbow in Thion throat in 2005 which caused him a larynx fracture and 6 weeks of suspension for Smit.
Another famous one, was Greening elbow on rougerie throat few years ago. 3 surgery interventions were necessary to allow him to breathe correctly.
so yeah, elbow can become a weapon. fortunately most of the players use chest and forearm
Brown was unlucky to take his shoulder and wasn't in the good posture to make a good impact.
that said, i remember a lot of malicious and dangerous cases of elbow charges. i remember two: Smit elbow in Thion throat in 2005 which caused him a larynx fracture and 6 weeks of suspension for Smit.
Another famous one, was Greening elbow on rougerie throat few years ago. 3 surgery interventions were necessary to allow him to breathe correctly.
so yeah, elbow can become a weapon. fortunately most of the players use chest and forearm
spoogy March 17, 2011 4:07 pm
Does anyone else think the decision to switch to a camera directly above a sprawled out Brown, before rising off to heaven seemed a bit distasteful/vaguely reminiscent of kicking the bucket in videogames?
edbok March 17, 2011 4:19 pm
Good call by the citing commish.
Pretty serious collision but very hard to fault Banahan for anything he did.
Pretty serious collision but very hard to fault Banahan for anything he did.
Anonymous March 17, 2011 4:45 pm
Lmao elbow? Idiots
He took the initial contact and then pushed outwards with his arm. Textbook technique when tacking a tackle to the upperbody. You try to push the tackler away on initial impact.
Nobody would bat an eyelid if Kelly Brown didn't go in awkwardly and end up on his arse.
It's his own fault for being a coward and not driving into the tackle, but rather getting scared and refusing to commit.
Typical Scots. Always standing, arms by their hips, waiting for people to run into them. This happens everytime Scotland play. And everytime opposition players are blamed for hitting them with their shoulders or elbows.
Maybe next time Brown learns to tackle properly and he wouldn't end up sleeping on the canvas.
He took the initial contact and then pushed outwards with his arm. Textbook technique when tacking a tackle to the upperbody. You try to push the tackler away on initial impact.
Nobody would bat an eyelid if Kelly Brown didn't go in awkwardly and end up on his arse.
It's his own fault for being a coward and not driving into the tackle, but rather getting scared and refusing to commit.
Typical Scots. Always standing, arms by their hips, waiting for people to run into them. This happens everytime Scotland play. And everytime opposition players are blamed for hitting them with their shoulders or elbows.
Maybe next time Brown learns to tackle properly and he wouldn't end up sleeping on the canvas.
Anonymous March 17, 2011 5:26 pm
i'd say hape made this possible by turning Kelly Brown and putting him off balance when the ball went to Banahan..... the last thing you want to be when tackling Banahan is turned and off balance
Von March 17, 2011 8:08 pm
Agree. Hape actually had a really good game in general. Defence in particular was brilliant, which is probably why only something special (ie Max Evans's chip) was going to get past him. In fact I think he's improving with each game and really looking forward to him and Banners smashing the Irish on Saturday.
Anonymous March 17, 2011 9:38 pm
so it's legal to elbow people in the face now is it?
And yet that lions winger gets 3 weeks for a good thumping tackle on the weekend.
Fantastic ;-)
And yet that lions winger gets 3 weeks for a good thumping tackle on the weekend.
Fantastic ;-)
Anonymous March 17, 2011 10:01 pm
Just goes to show the consequences of not going low on a big guy!
as for the argument that kelly brown didnt have enough time to make a good tackle (i.e. low and powerful) is complete bollocks nearly everything is rugby is decided on a split second. he could of got his head down but he panicked when he saw the enormous banahan running at him.
and nearly all big hard running players now use the elbow push after theyve been tackled now. watch someone like flutey play its the secondary burst of power that gets him over the gain line and buys him precious time!
as for the argument that kelly brown didnt have enough time to make a good tackle (i.e. low and powerful) is complete bollocks nearly everything is rugby is decided on a split second. he could of got his head down but he panicked when he saw the enormous banahan running at him.
and nearly all big hard running players now use the elbow push after theyve been tackled now. watch someone like flutey play its the secondary burst of power that gets him over the gain line and buys him precious time!
King March 17, 2011 10:26 pm
Should be shown to kids as an example of how not to tackle
2 Cents March 17, 2011 11:05 pm
Poor tackling technique, plenty of time to adjust the tackle.
Everyone knows Banahan likes to charge the ball up high, so lure him into thinking you're gonna tackle him high then BANG!!!......chop him in half or pick his legs up and dump him.
Everyone knows Banahan likes to charge the ball up high, so lure him into thinking you're gonna tackle him high then BANG!!!......chop him in half or pick his legs up and dump him.
FG March 18, 2011 1:38 am
I am a Scotland supporter here...
just another case of bad body positioning...
HOWEVER, i must add that is an unfortunate case of bad positioning because kelly brown was caught out by hape..so in his defence he didnt have much time to do anything about it..
Im glad nothing came of this...(in terms of citing!)
I think banahan is unfortunate..being so big and running hard seems to get him in trouble (when he doesnt deserve it!)
As for someone stating that he isnt tough enough to be a forward... as someone else has followed on, banahan played second row for jersey...he only moved to the wing because of his pace..
just another case of bad body positioning...
HOWEVER, i must add that is an unfortunate case of bad positioning because kelly brown was caught out by hape..so in his defence he didnt have much time to do anything about it..
Im glad nothing came of this...(in terms of citing!)
I think banahan is unfortunate..being so big and running hard seems to get him in trouble (when he doesnt deserve it!)
As for someone stating that he isnt tough enough to be a forward... as someone else has followed on, banahan played second row for jersey...he only moved to the wing because of his pace..
SinnerSavedByChrist March 18, 2011 5:37 am
PRETTY SURE HE LED WITH THE ELBOW.
There is Rough and there is dirty. Leading with the elbow is plain dirty. We don't see big fellas like Henry Tuilagi leading with his elbow do we?
However using your elbow/shoulder to shield your ball-holding arm, i.e. turning on an angle and making contact is acceptable. Elbow into head/neck is just plain plain dirty.
And I am a dirty player myself, but I have tried to clean up
There is Rough and there is dirty. Leading with the elbow is plain dirty. We don't see big fellas like Henry Tuilagi leading with his elbow do we?
However using your elbow/shoulder to shield your ball-holding arm, i.e. turning on an angle and making contact is acceptable. Elbow into head/neck is just plain plain dirty.
And I am a dirty player myself, but I have tried to clean up
Anonymous March 18, 2011 8:33 am
stop being one eyed english supporters, clearly lead with the forearm/elbow as thats what connected first.
Clear as day when you look at it from the second angle.
Clear as day when you look at it from the second angle.
Anonymous March 18, 2011 9:53 am
100% fair. No debate about it. As the famous Umaga once said "we play rugby not tiddlywinks!" its a contact sport an Banahan did everything right. Kelly Brown was unlucky.
Jeppy89 March 18, 2011 10:44 am
Watch the first slow mo properly from browns angle, he sees the switch coming changes his feet to meet matt before he's got the ball but panics and doesnt drop he head tries to stand him up and gets hit hard - by a forearm!
Digger March 18, 2011 11:35 am
What is really sad about this situation is that Brown will play this weekend. I thought there was a mandatory stand down time of 2 or 3 weeks after a diagnosed concussion? You'd think with all the publicity re: NFL/NHL concussions, that the IRB would step in.
Jammers March 18, 2011 11:58 am
I'm a huge fan of Banahan and love his style of play but there was a little bit of an elbow strike. Banahan is in a typical shoulder charge position throughout, but just before his shoulder makes contact with Brown, Banahan sticks his elbow out. Check 0.47 - 0.48 of the video.
That said, this is a contact sport. These things happen. Banahan has been picked up (very) unfairly in the past due to his combination of size and speed and I think he should be cautious about this type of hit.
I've been waiting for him to get his chance for England for a long time. It's long over due. I hope he stays on the England squad for a long time.
That said, this is a contact sport. These things happen. Banahan has been picked up (very) unfairly in the past due to his combination of size and speed and I think he should be cautious about this type of hit.
I've been waiting for him to get his chance for England for a long time. It's long over due. I hope he stays on the England squad for a long time.
Von March 18, 2011 1:13 pm
@Digger - I don't get what happened to that rule either. Mandatory time off after concussion seems an eminently sensible idea, yet both Brown and Reddan (on the bench at least) are set to play tomorrow.
@Jammers - me too mate. Hope he goes well tomorrow. I'm not against Tindall, but Banahan's got a far softer pair of hands, particularly his offloading game, attacking instinct and pace. There's also the familiarity with Hape, albeit in different position/s.
Getting very excited / nervous about Ireland v England tomorrow. Hope it lives up to the billing.....
@Jammers - me too mate. Hope he goes well tomorrow. I'm not against Tindall, but Banahan's got a far softer pair of hands, particularly his offloading game, attacking instinct and pace. There's also the familiarity with Hape, albeit in different position/s.
Getting very excited / nervous about Ireland v England tomorrow. Hope it lives up to the billing.....
Anonymous March 18, 2011 2:08 pm
To SinnerSavedByChrist
We don't see big fellas like Henry Tuilagi leading with his elbow do we?
Hmmmm maybe not but then he does other things doesn't he...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6_H0y9w0mY
We don't see big fellas like Henry Tuilagi leading with his elbow do we?
Hmmmm maybe not but then he does other things doesn't he...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6_H0y9w0mY
No.7 March 18, 2011 3:16 pm
Im incredibly impressed by all these comments on here. I mean Andy Robinson and the Citing commissioner all viewed this, (i'd imagine in every camera angle possible and about 100 times!) and they still didnt think banahan had a case to answer for. So im impressed that you guys, from the two angles here managed to see that he deserved some punishment.
...im not an England supporter by any means, infact, I wanted Scotland to win this game, but I still don't think banahan had anything to answer for...
...im not an England supporter by any means, infact, I wanted Scotland to win this game, but I still don't think banahan had anything to answer for...
Anonymous March 18, 2011 5:00 pm
Gosh... Darcy and O'driscoll are gonna have fun facing Tindall and Banahan at the centre... But they might take profit from it by outpacing them with speed no? Shouldn't Johnson choose a quicker player? Is Hape injured or just not good enough?
Massif
Massif
themull March 18, 2011 11:59 pm
I'm not complaining about this here but are you actually allowed to, according to the rulebook, lead with your elbow into a tackle?
themull March 19, 2011 12:02 am
And to anon above...
BOD is one of the best defenders in world rugby..He rarely, misses a tackle and will always get back to his feet to try and win the ball once the tackle is made...
However I would fear for Darcy alright...HE has had a pretty average(at best) 6Ns and really should have been dropped to the bench by now...
BOD is one of the best defenders in world rugby..He rarely, misses a tackle and will always get back to his feet to try and win the ball once the tackle is made...
However I would fear for Darcy alright...HE has had a pretty average(at best) 6Ns and really should have been dropped to the bench by now...
Von March 19, 2011 6:30 am
Massif said...
Gosh... Darcy and O'driscoll are gonna have fun facing Tindall and Banahan at the centre... But they might take profit from it by outpacing them with speed no? Shouldn't Johnson choose a quicker player? Is Hape injured or just not good enough?
Hape's fine and will play today with Banahan, who replaces Tindall at 13. Tindall turned an ankle during last week's game.
I don't think either of the Irish would outpace Banahan but O'Driscoll will fear neither Banahan or Hape.
As themull says above, Darcy's the weak link this year and if Banners doesn't smash through his channel at least once today I'll be very disappointed.
Gosh... Darcy and O'driscoll are gonna have fun facing Tindall and Banahan at the centre... But they might take profit from it by outpacing them with speed no? Shouldn't Johnson choose a quicker player? Is Hape injured or just not good enough?
Hape's fine and will play today with Banahan, who replaces Tindall at 13. Tindall turned an ankle during last week's game.
I don't think either of the Irish would outpace Banahan but O'Driscoll will fear neither Banahan or Hape.
As themull says above, Darcy's the weak link this year and if Banners doesn't smash through his channel at least once today I'll be very disappointed.
HVS March 19, 2011 5:57 pm
So Banahan is too fast to be a forward, is that the thinking? I don't understand it. Is Tom Croft too fast to be flanker? I can't imagine a guy that big not being of use in loose play as a forward. He could get his hands on the ball more and have that much more of mismatch in speed. I see this guy like a Joe van Niekerk.
Anonymous March 20, 2011 5:42 pm
Banahan thinks he's lomu, good for nothing, can only run into players recklessly, but not effectively
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