Bay of Plenty's length of the field try against Wellington

Brilliant. Great work Pig!

Awful tackling !

gotta love it when the fatties get a run :D

was pretty average

"I've always liked a wee canter"

nice!

interesting tackling... but the last pass was forward

That last pass was easily backwards. What video did you watch?

@ Anonymous. English mustn't be your first language. That pass was most definitely forward. Disgracefully so.

forward pass?? not at all

Great composure from a hooker and good attacking attitude from Bay of Plenty, always good to see teams running it from deep. Much more entertaining than kick-tennis!

Last pass was def forward in fact its a part of the game they don`t seem to penalise in SH rugby

"English mustn't be your first language. That pass was most definitely forward. Disgracefully so."

If you're mentally deficient - Only then could the pass be deemed forward.

Forget English, you need to go back to Primary School and take a bloody Science class! I'm tired of you dolts and your ignorance of basic Physics.

That pass was backwards.

Good try - although was spoiled a bit by the pathetic tackling. It's never as good if they don't have to really work for it. Fair play though - you can only play what's in front of you!

Ach, that's a wonderful sight - eighteen stones on the hoof!!

RIP Bill

Well put Mr Physics. An eminently legitimate pass.

Quality comments from the players too!!

Why do some people go through life carrying such a load of negativity on their backs? It's an enjoyable try, why the hate from some of the comments here? Do you feel better about yourself when pointing out something you think is wrong or bad.. you feel smart? Sad.

@ Flinto: Here here!

And it wasn't forward. The motion of the hands was backwards or flat at most. The ref was standing right next to the receiver.

And the ball, by the nature of physics, moves forward due to momentum. It's the direction in which it leaves the hands that determines whether a ball is a forward pass or not.

We've been through this.

Enjoyable try by the way :)

@magbrian

The forward was not at all forward. Watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lefG94K6PSM

You probably just misunderstand what a forward pass is.

View Video

That is a forward pass and you can stopusing the loose wording of the law to pretend it wasn't. Pause the vid at 1.23 and you can see that the passing player is marginally inside the 22 when he releases the ball. Pause it again when the ball is caught and you will see the try scorer is well inside the 22 when he takes the ball, much further ahead than the point from which the ball was thrown. Therefore the ball was thrown forward, making it a forward pass.

TomV said...That is a forward pass and you can stopusing the loose wording of the law to pretend it wasn't. Pause the vid at 1.23 and you can see that the passing player is marginally inside the 22 when he releases the ball. Pause it again when the ball is caught and you will see the try scorer is well inside the 22 when he takes the ball, much further ahead than the point from which the ball was thrown. Therefore the ball was thrown forward, making it a forward pass.

yaawwnn!!
The ball was passed flat out of the hands and the ref was right beside them and he got it right. How many times does this need to be explained on this site?

@ TomV:

Get it into your head!

If the player threw it behind him whilst running forward, the ball will still travel FORWARDS!!

Basic physics!

"Pause the vid at 1.23 and you can see that the passing player is marginally inside the 22 when he releases the ball. Pause it again when the ball is caught and you will see the try scorer is well inside the 22 when he takes the ball"

LOL! Go back to school, for the love of God!!!

95% of passes at speed are forward by the same bloody criteria. What do you want people to do, everyone stand still while passes are thrown? Turn the game into some bastardised Netball-Rugby?

I propose this simple test, to be carried out by people who fail to grasp the physics of the ball moving forwards through the air despite having been thrown backwards:

On a moving train, pick a stationary point a short distance up the track that would provide a reasonably soft landing if you fell on it - a nice grassy embankment or a deep lake for example. As the train passes that point, jump out of the train backwards. Ideally you should be on top of the train so you can take a run-up - sprint as fast as you can backwards and hurl yourself in a backwards direction with as much strength as you can muster.

Now, did you land at the point you were aiming for - or even, as you would have argued before doing the test, before that point?

Or did you smash into a brick wall or bridge a bit further along the track?

Eureka!

If you were right Tom, don't you think by now the IRB would have introduced technology to track all 30 players on the field and pick up forward passes?

If all that mattered was whether or not the ball travels forward?

The forward pass issue seems to be one that pops up on a lot of threads and usually where a SH team has scored a try. Tom V is quite correct. The the ball must remain behind the point at which it starts. Try it next time at training. Run at the 22 and pass the ball when you reach it. If it goes past the 22 then that is a forward pass as the ball has moved ahead of its original position. I have watched the SH video with the lines drawn on the ground and it is old and outdated.

This discussion just shows the difference in the way the laws are adhered to in the NH and the SH. However, which ever hemisphere you live in this was still a great try. Smacked of Ashtons against Australia apart from in this video Ashton was a hooker :)

Von: Far too many variables in that experiment. When playing rugby the ground isn't moving!!!

http://www.irblaws.com/EN/laws/3/12/111/during-the-match/knock-on-or-throw-forward/definition-throw-forward/#clause_111

just found this. Pretty unclear really. Down to the refs discretion.

The ball traveled forward, but the passing motion was backward. As far as the laws are concerned its perfectly legitimate, so please stop arguing about that!

The try itself was well worked but my god did the winger make a mess of that tackle. I know the hooker wasn't a small guy but he didn't even slow him down. Surely at that level a player should at least know what side to put his head!

Then Jimbo, if you are right, as you claim, the solution is surely a simple one - Introduce player and ball tracking technology that alerts officials to every forward pass. It could be implemented globally before the WC.

You know why it hasn't happened? Because those aren't the rules! Passes are allowed to travel forward, so long as they're thrown backwards or flat.

This has nothing to do with SH vs NH and everything to do with education vs no education; common sense vs buffoonery.

I just can't believe otherwise intelligent people are unable to get it. If forward passes were ruled by the standards proposed by those who hate Science, we'd have a game that doesn't even resemble Rugby.

Love that discussion...
And to add my point on it. It is clear for all that the ball was thrown backwards but ended up forward owing to momentum.
Quoting IRB Law 12:
"A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. Forward means towards the opposing teams dead ball line."
Since the verb pass is in the law that is the key of the dispute.
In my opinion a pass is completed when the receiver catch the ball. Considering the law if someone passes the ball and the receiver catches the ball forward wether it's du to momentum or not, the ball has travelled "towards the opposing teams dead ball line" and the pass is deemed "forward".

Furthermore the law is not " a forward pass occurs when a player attempt to throw the ball forward".

I think that what is really lacking in the comprehension of rugby is that it's the player "duty" to follow the rules even if its an effort and if it penalizes its team.

Few examples:
High tackles : if someone attempt a shoulder tackle (legal) but that the player ducks at the last moment and the tackler hit the head, it is still a high or dangerous tackle
Same for players off side in the rucks etc.

Players should make the effort to do things properly or not doing it at all

"http://www.irblaws.com/EN/laws/3/12/111/during-the-match/knock-on-or-throw-forward/definition-throw-forward/#clause_111

just found this. Pretty unclear really. Down to the refs discretion."

No, it isn't unclear. It says if the ball was "thrown forward" it is a forward pass, not if the ball travels forward.

@anon 3.16pm

The catch is not part of the pass. Using you're logic, if someone passed a ball and the other player missed it, then the passing player didn't actually pass the ball. Obviously he did pass the ball. You need to rethink your logic.

"A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward." There is nothing complicated about this. It is basic English.

herpderp herp, what's this momentum you speak so frequently of? derp derp

To Sean:
I know that but it was to highlight the fact that the only discussion we can have here is about the definitions of "throwing" and "passing"!

I think that the clearest sentence should be: "A forward pass occurs whenever the ball travels towards the opposing teams dead ball line after leaving a player's hands", hence the action of throwing is not a component of the law!

"I think that the clearest sentence should be: "A forward pass occurs whenever the ball travels towards the opposing teams dead ball line after leaving a player's hands", hence the action of throwing is not a component of the law!"

That would fuck the game up. The ball's overall motion is towards the line if a player's running faster than jogging pace.

The law is fine as it is. The problem is with the retards who can't get it.

Great try!
Regarding the "forward pass" discussion, I also thought that the ball could NEVER travel forward by hand, but apparently it can simply never be thrown/handled by hand forward, which is different. Tonight I'll be sure to tell my (amateur) teammates who often complain about my flat passes. In this vid here, the player catching the ball, though ahead of where the ball was launched when he catches it, is still behind the other player who completed the throw (as he has also run a few extra meters due to momentum).

I would like to invite you all down to a training session to talk through the basics of passing with you. When passing the ball backwards you HAVE TO TAKE MOMENTUM into account! Hence the reason players stand deep to recieve the ball. Unfortunatley those trying to educate on the Science don't seem to grasp the laws. Laws are not based on Science but on how the game should be played. I'm amazed so many educated people don't seem to understand that!

Hahahahaha Science haters hahahahahaha

Sorry Anon at 2:55 but who are you to judge who is educated and who is uneducated? Sorry we can't all be as clever as someone who has demonstrated his superior intellengence on this rugby website. Maybe you could provide us with the Mensa account name so we can be friends. This is a rugby website so show some respect!

As a ref I wouldn't have ruled this forward as allowing the game to flow is sometimes more important and it was close to call. However, watching that Aussie vid on youtube I would have ruled everyone of those passes forward. His hands on everyone of them are pointing forward and the ball clearly travels towards the other teams try line.

Also a lot of people on here are saying it is the intent to throw the ball forward that is against the laws! Does anyone MEAN to throw the ball forward?

The earth is flat. According to the "it's a forward pass!" imbecile-posse.

Not only do they lack understanding of science, but they're full-out illiterate and can't read the IRB rulebook right!

Jimbo1 - are you serious?!?!?!?

Jimbo said...
Von: Far too many variables in that experiment. When playing rugby the ground isn't moving!!!
When jumping off a train, the ground isn't moving either! It's an extreme example but the comparison is absolutely valid and I would have thought vividly clear.

Try it next time at training. Run at the 22 and pass the ball when you reach it. If it goes past the 22 then that is a forward pass as the ball has moved ahead of its original position
Then stand on the touchline level with the 22 and watch two or your team-mates running and passing. Don't tell them it's a drill/test, get them to do it naturally and at pace. Get the passer to release the pass when he reaches the 22 and have both players continue to run. Where is the bloke when he receives the ball? I bet you 50p it's level with or in advance of the 22.

I would like to invite you all down to a training session to talk through the basics of passing with you.
Judging from your efforts on here, I'm not sure you'll get many takers for that mate!

It was average, awful tackling and forward passes...

Don't you know Von? Jimbos team of nobodies know the rules and are more capable passers than every Professional team on Earth!

I'm sure the worlds best coaches are emailing RD right now trying desperately to get Jimbos IP address and contact info so they can hire him and let him show the worlds best how to throw a ball backwards!!

On a serious note though, I can't believe how fucking stupid some people are.

How inbred do you need to be to both a) Not know how to read a rule book, and b) Not grasp the concept of momentum.

You people are such intellectual-midgets. If you don't like the rules of Rugby, go play another fecking game!

whow Anon resulting to insulting people..the sign of a true intellectual. How interesting these comments sections would be if everyone had the same opinion! I haven't read anybody claiming to be the worlds authority on this just discussing it. Shame some people can't accept that others have a difference of opinion or might read the laws slightly differently.

forward pass.

Now then. Lets see if I can convince the naysayers on this once and for all. This is quite long, apologies for that, but please bear with me.

Have a look at these examples from very recent Rugbydump posts. Watch them at normal speed first and ask yourself if the passes are forward or not:

http://rugbydump.blogspot.com/2011/07/robbie-frueans-quickfire-try-from.html
Is the final pass to Fruean forward?

http://rugbydump.blogspot.com/2011/07/all-blacks-give-south-africa-hiding-in.html
At 0:20, is the pass by Conrad Smith forward?
At 0:40 in the same clip, is the pass by Dan Carter forward?

The answer in all three cases is clearly NO. Yet if you pause the videos and pick out reference points on the pitch, its equally clear that the ball has travelled forward in every case.

Admittedly, the first two are viewed on an angle, so lets concentrate on the last one, where the action happens near the halfway line so you can clearly observe whats going on use the advertising boards as guidelines. At 0:40, when Dan Carter releases the ball hes level with the J of GJ Gardner on the advert. When Guilford receives the ball hes level with the n. Therefore, the ball has demonstrably travelled forward, but was this penalised as a forward pass? No.

Why? Because its not a forward pass.

These are the three most recent passes I found on RD. 100% of them prove the central point about momentum. Now three may be a small sample, but I think if you watch closely almost any pass made when the players are running at pace, youll see the ball travel forward.

Going back to the example in this post, I think the cause of some peoples confusion is the fact that the 22 line is so close to the action. The ball moves in a very similar way to the three examples above, but in this case, the 22 is a clear reference point and your brain automatically makes a calculation that probably wouldnt occur to it to perform if it werent for that easy reference point. This is proven unequivocally in the examples above where there arent such readily available reference points.

Skydivers experience a similar phenomenon called ground rush when youre free-falling through the air at for example 10,000ft, its hard to actually appreciate just how fast youre moving because youre surrounded by sky, which your brain has little or no experience in measuring. However, when coming into land with parachute open, even though youre actually moving much more slowly, you suddenly get the sensation that youre falling. This is because when you reach the height of tree-tops and buildings, you suddenly have all these reference points which your brain is more familiar with. At this point, if you look down it can look like the ground is rushing up to meet you. Its not, its completely stationary.

The mind plays tricks and exactly the same thing is going on when people call forward pass.

I've wasted enough time on this, but I bet if you trawl through the comments on here, I bet youll find that every time theres a row about a forward pass, it will have taken place near a 22, tryline, 10m line or halfway line.

Smart asses talking about physics: Stop referring to momentum. We're talking about vectors.


If anyone had any idea of vectors or their principles then this argument wouldn't happen. Even without knowing anything about vectors, you could probably just figure it out using common sense. Shame there are so many retards on this site.

Lol at some school dropout mentioning vectors as if it means shit. Either elaborate or shut up. I can't see what relevance vectors have on IRB rules.

You quasi-intellectual halfwits have been ROFLSTOMPED.

The IRB states that you cannot throw the ball in a forward direction. Nobody threw the ball forward, ergo the pass was within the rules of Rugby.

It's really that simple. Vector components have nothing to do with it.

These dumb cunts want to turn Rugby into what Netball is to Basketball.

A bunch of simpleton infidels.

Lets just wire up the ball and all the players like the other kid suggested earlier. Soon fix the problem, surely?

If it wasn't for Islam then we'd all be happy...

It's sad to see that RD is now full of "anonymous" posters who flick invectives at all those around. Sure, rugby is about combat and all, but there is supposed to be a certain sense of decency among supporters.

RD now looks like this:
-@anonymous at 2:15 said:
"mine's bigger"
-@anonymous at 2:16 said:
"yeah, but mine's thicker"
-@anonymous at 2:17 said:
"and mine's rounder, it's about roundness, you bloody scallywags!"

A front rower on the run is one of the greatest sites to behold in the game of rugby and you guys are arguing about a forward pass??
Sad

There are alot of people who really don't know the rules and have probably never actually played the game.
As the game has spread in popularity, you get alot of armchair fans.
These fans think that was a forward pass, basically because they are ignorant of the law.

Since time immemorial, the law about passing backwards has had to do with the action of passing.

It has nothing to do with where the ball ends up or where it's caught.

The law specifically refers to the actions of "passing backwards", meaning the only thing that matters is the direction the ball is passed in. If physics then means that it floats forward despite being thrown backwards, it is still a legal pass.

The law refers to tha ction of throwing the ball. That is intentional. 100% intentional. The law does not state "a ball is forward if it is caught forward of where it is passed from". Because that would mean that about half or more passes would be forward.

It has nothing to do with SH or NH (NH refs have the EXACT same interpretation - it is mandated by the IRB).

It has to do with fans of the game who are casual in nature and don't really understand the rules.

These are similar to the fans who critisized Mccaw a videos ago for playing the ball without entering the ruck, despite being the tackler, releasing the tackled player and no ruck beign formed.

Sadly quite a few fans need to do some reading on the laws of the game.

GET A LIFE LOSERS!!!!

"mandated"

HAHAHA man date....

rugby is so gay now...

And you're an idiot.

I like very much this game.It is very interesting game.I really enjoyed by seeing this video.Thank you for providing such a good thing.

It's amazing how wrong some people can be. You people saying a ball can't travel forward full stop, you're the flat-earthers of the Rugby world.

The rules are right there! E-Mail the IRB and they'll clarify the rules, it's not much to write a 50 word Email asking for clarification.

The ball IS allowed to travel forward, so long as the passing action is backwards or flat. You can't argue that - And if you are arguing that, you're a bit daft.

As an anon I never insulted anyone or anyone's intelligence.
I understand that there are two vision of the forward pass and I find interesting to discuss about it.

To those who state "read the rule...its simple english...bla...bla", I'd say if it's controversial it is worth discuss about.

Then why flat passes ending up one or two meters ahead of the passer are deemed forward by the referee?

And by the way, nice try and impressive run by the hooker!

I was just thinking about the whole "forward pass" discussion and one thing bothers me.
If you place the ball behind your back and flick it one-handed backwards and up, with a spin, you can make it spin right back forward over your head.
Technically, the motion of the pass is backwards, but every referee in the NH and SH will blow their whistle for a forward pass.
So I think it's not just that the ball must not be thrown forward, but that the motion of the throw itself must not generally be considered forward. Or whatever. God it's hot in here.

tbh guys, lets just get things settled here!

IF THE BALL IS THROWN FORWARD BY EITHER THE ALL BLACKS OR THE SOUTH AFRICANS THEN IT IS FINE AND LEGAL AND TOTALLY LEGITIMATE. IF ANY, AND I MEAN ANY OTHER TEAM SHOWS A HINT OF IT BEING FORWARD THEN ITS AN AUTOMATIC BLOW OF THE WHISTLE AND A SCRUM!!!!!

SO what we have here is TWO NZ teams, therefore the pass is fine!!!

The idiots saying the pass is forward are probably the same idiots that call McCaw a cheat. No understanding of our game whatsoever.

RD's few blogging children seem to be the ONLY people on this earth that dont understand the rule, and think its a forward pass.

It's unbelievable. Unbelievable!

I don't think it's a forward pass, but I know McCaw is a cheat. And McCaw knows it too. Every team has its celebrity cheat, for NZ it's McCaw, and this has nothing to do with you knowing the rules of rugby better than I do.
The man was penalised at least 4 times (if not more) against SA and warned an extra 3 or 4 times. You're penalised when you're not playing by the rules, ie. when you're cheating. QED.

Whatever Moddeur

As you showed with your comment on the AB-SA game, you don't even know what a ruck is. So why should anyone take your comments seriously?

Well remember the mer if mccaw gets penalised and warned then evidently both he AND you don't know what a ruck is....

you dont get penalised for being a good boy and playing by the rules, you get penalised for both mistakes and also intentionally cheating!

So work that one out...

Well remember the mer if mccaw gets penalised and warned then evidently both he AND you don't know what a ruck is....

you dont get penalised for being a good boy and playing by the rules, you get penalised for both mistakes and also intentionally cheating!

So work that one out...

Well this is the problem Mr Anon. McCaw was penalised 3 times against the Saffers.

1) offside in the backline - except that he was nowhere near being offside

2) Off his feet at a ruck - was initially on his feet but got pulled in. Fair enough.

3) Detached early from scrum - probably because the Saffers were being marched back so fast that he couldn't keep up. Fair enough.

So for all the complaints, whines bitches and moans about cheating constantly hands in ruck etc, we have a bullshit penalty, a scrum penalty and ONE ruck penalty. But he must be a dastardly cheat because no flanker other than McCaw has ever given away a penalty at a ruck.

Keep whining boys and girls - that way you won't notice that the guy pilfering the ball all game was actually Andrew Hore.

Mer, did it ever occur to you that not all of us are talking about the latest match but perhaps the history of his rugby... and how his dirty little fingers keep getting everywhere (and I mean EVERYWHERE) we all know what you NZ bum pokers are like!

Whatever, every gam is the same.

You squawk "McCaw McCaw McCaw" like crows. You chirp "cheat cheat cheat" like little budgies.

And then when we go back to look at the game it turns out that you're mostly talking crap and that what you whine about is actually just good play.

Remember the mer said it:

"MOSTLY talking crap"

.....

"MOSTLY" would therefore mean "about as often as every other half decent no.7 in the world"

.....So what you're saying is McCaw cheats sometimes?