Tuesday, October 25, 2011
Richie McCaw knee on Morgan Parra, Donald kick, Rougerie eye-gouge, and more
In the aftermath of the All Blacks victory over France in the Rugby World Cup final there have been many different theories and allegations, some within reason, others perhaps not. Today we attempt to provide more clarity on all the incidents.
One thing that's clear is that everyone has an opinion. If you're French, you're more than likely going to be quite vocal at this time, but that's understandable - your team lost and you're unhappy. We sympathise with you. Everyone goes through it from time to time. Just ask Wales.
For the neutrals, some of what has gone on has left this RWC with quite a quite sour aftertaste. The tournament that has been litterered with controversy, and be handled badly at times. Here's a look at three of the incidents from the final though, and a few thoughts on each.
The Stephen Donald penalty kick
There have been numerous site comments, emails, tweets, etc all saying that this penalty kick from Stephen Donald actually missed. It didn't.
Having studied it in good quality, slowed it down, and having used a bit of common sense, you can clearly see that the camera is moving from left to right, creating an illusion of it having slipped wide and to the right of the post.
The ball ends up on that side because he's kicked it in the form of an in-ducker, which is basically when the ball goes from left to right from a right-footed kicker after he's stabbed at it. It's almost like a slice, or the same direction you'd expect a slice to go anyway.
That's certainly not conclusive proof, but just look at the reactions of the touch judges (flags up straight away), the crowd, the French players, and Donald himself. It might have looked like it missed when watching on tv, but there's no conspiracy here. Hopefully we can put this one to rest.
The Richie McCaw knee on Morgan Parra
Early on in the game French number ten Parra took a bad knock to the head from All Blacks skipper Richie McCaw as he attempted to clear out Thierry Dusautoir. Parra had to leave the field. He returned but didn't last long, and left again.
You can see in the above picture that the knock was a fairly hefty one, and the video replay showed that McCaw's knee (and hand, depending on how you want to view it) made contact with his cheek. It's also possible that part of the knock came from the initial burst by Ma'a Nonu.
Was there anything intentional there from McCaw? This is another one for you to decide on, depending which side of the fence you sit. As a neutral, you would think no, it was not intentional. While the super-slowmo shows us a knee hitting a face, every other angle indicates that he was doing what every loose forward does in every game of rugby on the planet - attempting to clear out a player and compete for the ball.
If anything it was clumsy, as his eyes were on Dusautoir the whole time, but perhaps at a stretch one could say that he could have been more aware of Parra on the floor.
Aurelien Rougerie eye-gouge on Richie McCaw
During the game it was clear to see that something had happened to McCaw on the floor. His reaction to the ref, and the redness in the eye, and eye area, showed that something must have taken place. TV show Reunion in New Zealand have now released a video of it, following strong allegations by commentator Keith Quinn.
"It was clearly seen on TV," said Quinn. "McCaw needed attention from medical staff.''
A source within the New Zealand camp confirmed it, but the video wasn't clear, which is why Reunion have released the below footage. You can decide for yourself what takes place.
The citing period for the match has passed, so it's possible that Rougerie may not face any punishment. The IRB usually take quite a strong standpoint on such offences though, so we'll need to wait and see what happens. McCaw himself hasn't complained formerly, but did say that he felt something around his eye but didn't know what it was. He also said he wasn't sure if it was intentional or not.
Other controversies
The refereeing of Craig Joubert had been praised for most of the tournament, but in the final game the 50/50 calls seemed to go New Zealand's way, particularly in the first half. Was there an agenda? One would like to think not, but stranger things have happened at this tournament. There is a video doing the rounds that includes two pundits from an Ireland television station analysing the breakdown. You can view that here and make your own mind up.
One thing is certain, Joubert is not a popular man in France right now.
Haka fine for France
As you will have heard by now, France have reportedly been fined for part of their response to the Haka just before kick off. The fine, reportedly amounting to £2500, is not actually for responding, but is specifically because they crossed the halfway line, which is against the regulations and agreements in place for 'cultural challenges.'
This crazy thing is that technically some of the New Zealand players also crossed their 'border', as you can see at the end of the France challenge the Haka video that was posted here earlier in the week. We are however yet to see official written confirmation of the fine.
Impartiality
Lastly, accusations of bias and a lack of impartiality on Rugbydump are completely unfounded, and to be totally honest, fairly narrow minded and insulting. If you've visited the site for the past five years you will know the site's intentions.
Nothing has suddenly changed, and why would it? Please take a moment to think things through before posting unwarranted abuse. Here's looking forward to the rest of the season. Cheers.
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Posted at 4:18 pm | 237 comments
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Posted in Rugby World Cup 2011
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Viewing 237 comments
Rugbydump October 25, 2011 5:29 pm
If you feel like discussing any of the above, please do so in a mature, sensible manner. Anything else will no longer be tolerated. Cheers
oslosinclair October 25, 2011 6:50 pm
Kick was in. McCaw didn't knee Para. Rougerie raked. Joubert didn't ref New Zealand. French supporters should be and are entitled to be annoyed without your smarmy comments, regardless of what comments may have been posted. McCaw was a serial offender at the breakdown in the final and Joubert didn't do his duty. McCaw's refusal to acknowledge the french contribution to a fantastic final was a disgrace and shows that he now believes the hype from kiwi fans that he's untouchable. This mentality led to the Kiwis embarrassing themselves at every single game that Australia played. Fob it off as trans tasmin rivalry but they disgraced themselves.
UHtiger October 26, 2011 6:54 am
His refusal to acknowledge the french would more likely be from nearly having his eyes ripped out 10 minutes before the end of the game. You'd have to be some kind of saint to congratulate someone who risked your eyesight.
cooperkid October 28, 2011 12:52 pm
or someone who risked your mental health by rooking like a schoolboy?McCaw is either a dirty player and hit parra intentionally or he is crap at rooking and gets wrong often.coming in from the side,killing the ball,playing while off his feet - the list goes on you decide.
By the way im Irish and totally unbiased here, i love to watch the all blacks but for me piri weepu's ankle tap won them that game!
By the way im Irish and totally unbiased here, i love to watch the all blacks but for me piri weepu's ankle tap won them that game!
UHtiger October 28, 2011 1:58 pm
Firstly, Rooking? what the hell is that. Secondly, Macaw did nothing wrong in regards to Parra. It was Parra who lifted his head into the line of fire. Maccaw by that point only had eyes for clearing Dusutoir.
Secondly, every single 7 in international rugby does exactly the same as Maccaw, Maccaw just gets singled out due to playing in the most succesful team in the world.
Secondly, every single 7 in international rugby does exactly the same as Maccaw, Maccaw just gets singled out due to playing in the most succesful team in the world.
Pretzel October 29, 2011 5:35 am
incorrect, mccaw gets singled out because whilst every other 7 is given 10 minutes to think about how naughty they were at the breakdown, he gets jolly reach around from every ref under the sun... infact has he ever had a card?
Jeroz October 29, 2011 11:21 am
I believe he had a few times.
I remember one of them being against the English team in one of the End of Year tours.
I remember one of them being against the English team in one of the End of Year tours.
cheyanqui October 25, 2011 5:40 pm
As a French fan,
To all of those posting conspiracy theories about Stephen Donald's PK --
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MLc0udf_74&t=3m29s
"wide, and to the right. wide and to the right"
The knee (actually a fist) by McCaw -- McCaw should have been cited, just so that there is a documentation of it. I don't think anything would come of it, but it would be in his record for the future. I don't see a swinging arm in the contact by the fist, so I think he gets off.
The eye-gouge allegation -- looks like a raking. There was easily no justifiable rugby play to be made by Rougerie -- shameful. But these kiwi commentators calling for a head-butt first - that's rich.
Haka -- a fine is utter crap. The tradition (in the way it's currently presented) is only 20+ yrs old. I can understand the IRB insisting on some modicum of respect, but at the same time, the teams should not be obligated to just stand there. Who is to say that the opposition isn't trying to start their own "tradition" in the 21st century, and their "tradition" is to stare down the Kiwis with the same vigor.
Richie McCaw exempted also from Blood Bin obligations? -- didn't Richie have blood on his ear for the last 5-10 mins of the game? Why wasn't he blood binned by Joubert? Makes you wonder.
To all of those posting conspiracy theories about Stephen Donald's PK --
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MLc0udf_74&t=3m29s
"wide, and to the right. wide and to the right"
The knee (actually a fist) by McCaw -- McCaw should have been cited, just so that there is a documentation of it. I don't think anything would come of it, but it would be in his record for the future. I don't see a swinging arm in the contact by the fist, so I think he gets off.
The eye-gouge allegation -- looks like a raking. There was easily no justifiable rugby play to be made by Rougerie -- shameful. But these kiwi commentators calling for a head-butt first - that's rich.
Haka -- a fine is utter crap. The tradition (in the way it's currently presented) is only 20+ yrs old. I can understand the IRB insisting on some modicum of respect, but at the same time, the teams should not be obligated to just stand there. Who is to say that the opposition isn't trying to start their own "tradition" in the 21st century, and their "tradition" is to stare down the Kiwis with the same vigor.
Richie McCaw exempted also from Blood Bin obligations? -- didn't Richie have blood on his ear for the last 5-10 mins of the game? Why wasn't he blood binned by Joubert? Makes you wonder.
Sledgey June 26, 2012 4:09 pm
Lets take your points one by one my friend!
"The eye-gouge allegation -- looks like a raking. There was easily no justifiable rugby play to be made by Rougerie -- shameful. But these kiwi commentators calling for a head-butt first - that's rich."
Eye gouge, raking are different things with the same intent, to blind.
Head butt, amazing how Rougerie can enter a ruck with his head 6 inches off the ground, just as well McCaws head was there to bounce off of, otherwise he'd have buried his own head in the turf up to his neck.
"Haka -- a fine is utter crap. The tradition (in the way it's currently presented) is only 20+ yrs old."
Yeah, 20 years and still the French can't respect the format.
The Welsh gave the best return to an All Black Haka ever, when they stood silent, steadfast and united, it was fantastic! (and I'm a Maori-All Black fan)
"didn't Richie have blood on his ear for the last 5-10 mins of the game? Why wasn't he blood binned by Joubert? "
Now your just getting desperate my friend. But no hard feelings, good luck in the next RWC.
"The eye-gouge allegation -- looks like a raking. There was easily no justifiable rugby play to be made by Rougerie -- shameful. But these kiwi commentators calling for a head-butt first - that's rich."
Eye gouge, raking are different things with the same intent, to blind.
Head butt, amazing how Rougerie can enter a ruck with his head 6 inches off the ground, just as well McCaws head was there to bounce off of, otherwise he'd have buried his own head in the turf up to his neck.
"Haka -- a fine is utter crap. The tradition (in the way it's currently presented) is only 20+ yrs old."
Yeah, 20 years and still the French can't respect the format.
The Welsh gave the best return to an All Black Haka ever, when they stood silent, steadfast and united, it was fantastic! (and I'm a Maori-All Black fan)
"didn't Richie have blood on his ear for the last 5-10 mins of the game? Why wasn't he blood binned by Joubert? "
Now your just getting desperate my friend. But no hard feelings, good luck in the next RWC.
cheyanqui October 25, 2011 11:55 pm
and for the record, I do believe the Stephen Donald kick was good. The JFK reference was simply due to the folks running tape of the kickin as if they hold the rights to the Zapruder film.
rugby played by men October 28, 2011 10:50 pm
You make a comment about a fist from McCaw, if a boxer made a fist like that the opponent would laugh in his face. A fist is when the hand is closed not open. Then you dismiss the claim of the head butt, you show that you are against the AB's and look only at their wrong doings. Get impartial and be someone worth listening to. If McCaw hit Parra with a fist then McCaw was definately head butted, have to be fair both ways.
moddeur October 25, 2011 5:41 pm
The Donald kick is in, the knee looks uninentional but also lacks any form of restraint (a hardened version of Courtney Lawes' knee earlier in the tournament), the Rougerie eye-gouge allegation looks like Rougerie trys to grab MacCaw's face at any cost (nose, ear, eyes too?) to hurt him for being in the wrong place, Joubert's refereeing was not pro-NZ it was just Southern Hemisphere (let's not blow the whistle so that the game looks nicer), the fine for France is ridiculous, and allegations of Rugbydump being partial are idiotic.
This is just my opinion ...
This is just my opinion ...
nathan October 25, 2011 5:52 pm
I'd normally agree with you about the SH style of reffing, but when the linked video shows that both team's doing the exact same thing yet only France get penalised you do have to wonder what the hell Joubert was thinking.
NZ2011RWC winners October 30, 2011 12:41 pm
I am begining to like the French who choose only to comunicate in French, because luckily I can't speak French, thus would not read as much driviel.
Gaetan October 25, 2011 5:42 pm
NZ won the world cup, fair enough. We lost and now we have to go over it. But what I found shameful is all those controversies brought by the nz newspapers, I don't get the purpuse of this mess. YOu have the cup, fine, we will get it next time!!!
UHtiger October 26, 2011 6:58 am
So the french players should be able to get away with abusing members of the media because they lost?
Gaetan October 26, 2011 7:35 am
So the nz media should be enough adult to be able to stop their harassement to french players. You won the world, what do you want more??? Let them go!!! Or maybe that's way to hide all the discussions about your captain
UHtiger October 26, 2011 10:39 am
Its not about harassing, its about reporting the news. The media were doing nothing more than doing their jobs. Its no different than any other media group around the world.
Gaetan October 26, 2011 10:47 am
Provocation is not reporting the news, it's creating the news
UHtiger October 26, 2011 10:31 pm
And just what did they do that was provoking?
Common Sense February 06, 2012 4:29 pm
Hey cooperkid, lets not forget how this guy was provoked....
http://frenchrugbyclub.com/International-Rugby/International-Lying-Bastareaud-000516.html
..........hold on thats right the French guy was lying...
http://frenchrugbyclub.com/International-Rugby/International-Lying-Bastareaud-000516.html
..........hold on thats right the French guy was lying...
rugby played by men October 28, 2011 10:57 pm
The NZ Media were a bunch of immature tossers and some of the stories that ran leading upto the final pointing out French past wrong doings was totally inappropriate. I hope they are ready to have the NH media doo exactly the same to the AB's in 4 years time and they have only themselves to blame. If I was AB's media manager I would not give that publication any access to the team during any WC in the future.
UHtiger October 29, 2011 6:41 am
They are ready for it because it already happens evey time they tour. Calls to ban the haka, richies a cheat, they get favourable treatment from refs, the IRB favours them. This is all common place from media people in their main rivals countries.
Jury October 30, 2011 11:39 pm
It's mainly the Granny (NZ) Herald and they are atrocious. I was embarrassed for the inflammatory rubbish they were writing about the French team. It's not reporting the news. They just made stuff up and kept antagonising the French. When they were called on it, they acted like "who me"?
nathan October 25, 2011 5:48 pm
That's not a good video for Craig Joubert! Some really bad mistakes!
HCJ October 25, 2011 5:52 pm
It would most likely be a very boring tournament without controversy of some sort. Its a difficult game to referee at the best of times and much of it is down to interpretation. Just get on with it! And if Rugbydump is biased - who to?!
Rodofle October 25, 2011 5:53 pm
MacCaw is a cheat and got what he deserved. And it wasn't an eye gouge, Rougerie just tried to grab his face in order to stop the cheat.
How the hell this guy is almost never penalised, as everybody knows that he's a professional cheater? If the refs did make their job, MacCaw would be penalised and opponents wouldn't have to give him cheap shots in order to stop him cheating with total impugnity.
How the hell this guy is almost never penalised, as everybody knows that he's a professional cheater? If the refs did make their job, MacCaw would be penalised and opponents wouldn't have to give him cheap shots in order to stop him cheating with total impugnity.
Al October 25, 2011 9:04 pm
I dont think anybody can say it wasn't eye gouging it clearly was Not to be tolerated really... but i am pretty sure it wouldnt have happened if the ref would have treated both teams the same.. it was an act of pure frustration and there was mccaw sitting in the ruck again ( in the eyes of rougerie ) and disrupting play which he was doing constantly really no denying it... but the if justice isnt reenforced people will get desperate and take matters into their own hands... ( in french club rugby i think it is the reaction if somebody isnt sticking to the rules and getting away with it...)
UHtiger October 26, 2011 7:04 am
Not really sure what maccaw could have done in that position, the all blacks had counter rucked and driven the french back off the ball, anyone whos ever played the game knows how difficult it is to stay on your feet when your walking over opposition players who a tring to stop you. Maccaw was on top of 3 or 4 guys and under another 3 or 4, not sure how he could have gotten out of that.
menial October 25, 2011 9:48 pm
But Rodofle, you said it wasn't an eye gouge, so what is 'it' that he got?
ChairmanRice October 26, 2011 2:28 pm
mccaw's knee/punch looked unintentional, but he should still have been cited for it. that eye gouging was just filthy and uncalled for. not to mention it was done purposely. but headbutting? no way
Sublime October 26, 2011 12:21 am
Idiot, don't comment unless you understand the game, in particular the laws around ruck ball. In Richie's position (same goes for Pocock et al) you live on the line and the contest for the ball is subjective to a point. Its the role of these guys to push and find that line.
Your bitterness and jealously is not an endearing quality.
Your bitterness and jealously is not an endearing quality.
Pagani October 26, 2011 3:31 am
I think that even my grandmother can be elected as best player of the world if ALL the reff's give her the same impunity that they give McCAw in every single ruck...
It sounds me quite awkward that france didn't received more than one penalty in opposite field, also.
But it's over now. You kiwis may be very happy... you won you world cup, in your country, with your rules. Everything is wonderful for you, just keep believing your own lie
It sounds me quite awkward that france didn't received more than one penalty in opposite field, also.
But it's over now. You kiwis may be very happy... you won you world cup, in your country, with your rules. Everything is wonderful for you, just keep believing your own lie
joeythelemur October 26, 2011 4:41 pm
Wow, maybe the best example of sour grapes yet.
Pagani October 27, 2011 10:49 pm
France never deserved to be in the final anyway, even if they played better on the day. We won. You lost. Just like in 2007 when the ref was on YOUR side.
You are very bitter. Yes it is wonderful for us, now that you've stopped testing your atomic bombs in the Pacific Ocean which laps our east coast, sinking ships in our harbours and the fact that your street signs are still French and not German, thanks to the allies including many young New Zealanders who fought to save your country and the world after you surrendered.
Good luck in 2015. A NH team will probably win this time but it won't be you erratic dirty lot.
You are very bitter. Yes it is wonderful for us, now that you've stopped testing your atomic bombs in the Pacific Ocean which laps our east coast, sinking ships in our harbours and the fact that your street signs are still French and not German, thanks to the allies including many young New Zealanders who fought to save your country and the world after you surrendered.
Good luck in 2015. A NH team will probably win this time but it won't be you erratic dirty lot.
Jair October 27, 2011 11:09 pm
France never deserved to be in the final anyway, even if they played better on the day. We won. You lost. Just like in 2007 when the ref was on YOUR side.
You are very bitter. Yes it is wonderful for us, now that you've stopped testing your atomic bombs in the Pacific Ocean which laps our east coast, sinking ships in our harbours and the fact that your street signs are still French and not German, thanks to the allies including many young New Zealanders who fought to save your country and the world after you surrendered.
Good luck in 2015. A NH team will probably win this time but it won't be you erratic dirty lot.
You are very bitter. Yes it is wonderful for us, now that you've stopped testing your atomic bombs in the Pacific Ocean which laps our east coast, sinking ships in our harbours and the fact that your street signs are still French and not German, thanks to the allies including many young New Zealanders who fought to save your country and the world after you surrendered.
Good luck in 2015. A NH team will probably win this time but it won't be you erratic dirty lot.
Ben October 29, 2011 9:38 am
The French didn't cheat to get to the final, so they deserved it. Your 'political' comments are simply pointless and show all the media brainwash you've been subjected to.
Gav October 25, 2011 5:58 pm
The Donald kick was fine, but the refereeing of the last 20 minutes as France pressed NZ was an absolute scandal. France where whistled off the pitch, and NZ could do no wrong. Aside from the things in the clip, NZ were allowed stand up in the scrums unpunished and how the hell did Joubert miss those high tackles? He reminded me of the referee in the soccer match in the film, 'Escape to Victory'.
It's a pity that the game was won by the weaker team on the day. I'm delighted NZ won as they were the best team in the tournament and have been great the last couple of years, but that final was a real hammer-blow for the credibility of rugby as a sport.
It's a pity that the game was won by the weaker team on the day. I'm delighted NZ won as they were the best team in the tournament and have been great the last couple of years, but that final was a real hammer-blow for the credibility of rugby as a sport.
UHtiger October 26, 2011 7:07 am
Stand up in the scrums unpunished? they got pinged a couple times for that very reason. The kick that Trun-Duch missed towards the end im pretty sure was for that very penalty.
bucklesf89 October 25, 2011 6:19 pm
In regards to Joubert, he did the exact opposite of Rolland. He did not step up to the plate on the day. I think he was better then Rolland in the semi final, even thought I think Warburton's red card was the right call. As Matt Williams said, it's a pity France didn't get the chance they deserved to try win it.
Rugby dump being biased? Ridiculous, the reason I love this site is because the facts are laid out and we, the readers, chose how to interpret them.
Rugby dump being biased? Ridiculous, the reason I love this site is because the facts are laid out and we, the readers, chose how to interpret them.
Jury October 30, 2011 11:41 pm
Matt Williams has one of the worst coaching records of all time. I think we know why now. He doesn't know the rules of the game. The clips he's posting are incredibly selective.
Mark October 25, 2011 6:20 pm
Anyone claiming McCaw's hit on Parra was intentional is giving him too much credit. Trying to land a punch/knee on Parra's head, while running at full speed and without looking towards him would be pretty remarkable.
Is anyone else getting tired with the attention given to referees during this World Cup? Those analysing the ref very rarely look at both sides. Rugby isn't black and white and it's not as if referees making bad calls is anything new. The best teams don't use the referee as an excuse.
Is anyone else getting tired with the attention given to referees during this World Cup? Those analysing the ref very rarely look at both sides. Rugby isn't black and white and it's not as if referees making bad calls is anything new. The best teams don't use the referee as an excuse.
unebrindille October 25, 2011 11:35 pm
Well... it so happened that that night, ruby WAS black or white.
Tanora October 26, 2011 8:59 pm
Mark, did you watch the clip linked to above? It literally looks at both sides. Here it is in case you missed it:
http://youtu.be/1XBqetaCfgo
http://youtu.be/1XBqetaCfgo
UHtiger October 28, 2011 2:07 pm
Nope, that vid is strictly from a french sympathetic point of view.
rugby played by men October 28, 2011 11:16 pm
I watched it and all it did was point out AB infringements and a half hearted French on. I have re-watch the game and in the first 40 minutes if the ref was to be totally to the letter of the law and based on other decisions in previous WC games the feanch should have been penalised a futher 10 times and the AB's 4. Now what Samoa were red carded for against SA, the French #4 did to Thorn and Richie was told to speak to Thorn when he stood up for himself (Thorn should have dived on the ground like the SA did in the Samoa game) also French # 8 attacked the face of Woodcock in a rolling maul, and a French tackler lead with a forearm to Kaino's head so I too if I was a TV commentator could do something similar. But why, all games can be dissected to show what ever you want, its not the players or the ref that needs to change, its the stupid laws that allow for 10 people to see the same play but yet view 10 different rulings that could be taken depending on view point, and yet be justified for their decision. Players and Ref's do what they think is right at the time and I for one can't wait till the player can sort it out themselves with in reason.
Jayoflemo October 25, 2011 6:27 pm
what about the ref leaving parra lying on the floor, then as soon as cruden goes down he calls the match to a halt??
roll on word cup 2015
roll on word cup 2015
Mark October 25, 2011 6:36 pm
Cruden was in the way of the Scrum, Should he have left the clock running?
Fettsack October 25, 2011 6:29 pm
French fan talking:
1-Kick is in though I saw it out when watching live.
2-Doesn't seem intentional from McCaw.
3-I can't see much so no opinion.
4-Joubert did give 50/50 calls to NZ.
5-The fine is ridiculus
General impression: NZ newspapers are worse than the french (tough to beat)
1-Kick is in though I saw it out when watching live.
2-Doesn't seem intentional from McCaw.
3-I can't see much so no opinion.
4-Joubert did give 50/50 calls to NZ.
5-The fine is ridiculus
General impression: NZ newspapers are worse than the french (tough to beat)
Dan October 25, 2011 6:33 pm
Good post - enjoyed this
I've never commented here before, as I try and shy away from all the name-calling and nastiness that these sections can generate (unfortunately), but I thought it was a real shame to see this:
"Lastly, accusations of bias and a lack of impartiality on Rugbydump are completely unfounded, and to be totally honest, fairly narrow minded and insulting"
Some of the comments over the past couple of weeks have been awful and I couldn't agree more with RD's sentiments.
I can never understand why people can't discuss things in an open, courteous way and to then to continue this bad behaved approach in an attack on RD is out of order. Just to remind you all - RD is free of charge site. It appears to have no hidden agenda but, even if it did, then I'd hope you'd be able to see this and then make your own minds up.
I've never commented here before, as I try and shy away from all the name-calling and nastiness that these sections can generate (unfortunately), but I thought it was a real shame to see this:
"Lastly, accusations of bias and a lack of impartiality on Rugbydump are completely unfounded, and to be totally honest, fairly narrow minded and insulting"
Some of the comments over the past couple of weeks have been awful and I couldn't agree more with RD's sentiments.
I can never understand why people can't discuss things in an open, courteous way and to then to continue this bad behaved approach in an attack on RD is out of order. Just to remind you all - RD is free of charge site. It appears to have no hidden agenda but, even if it did, then I'd hope you'd be able to see this and then make your own minds up.
eglionel October 25, 2011 6:40 pm
For me is clearly intencional. Also, is not McCaw knee on parra but McCaw fist on parra. Why has a closed fist and the other not?
jumping04 October 25, 2011 6:41 pm
1) Kick was through. Plain and simple.
2) The "knee". I dunno, I do like McCaw, but in terms of a citing it depends what mode of consistency you want to follow. In my mind that was equal to the Courtney Laws knee on Roncero (or Ledesma, I can't distinguish the two sometimes), but not as bad as the Cooper knee on McCaw. Of course, Lawes was banned and Cooper wasn't... so not sure with that one.
3) Rougerie played outstanding in that match so I want to give him the benefit of the doubt but it does look like there was a raking action on McCaw's face which I find quite unfortunate.
4) I was really hoping Joubert would get things right, but you have to look at that video. Clear that there was some poor officiating done unfortunately.
5)As fettsack says, the fine is bloody stupid. I hate all this IRB hate mongering that people use, how much they insult it and claim it is pro NZ, but in this instance I do feel that they are well out of line. That was a brilliant challenge and they were a couple of feet over the line: oh no... not the halfway line. Just bothers me when a classic moment of rugby history is ruined by red tape and technicalities!
6) Rugbydump, Grant Constable and all those who work for the site: you are all legends. This is my favourite rugby site, and even though (as far as I know) you are South African, and you beat my beloved England out of a second world cup in 2007, you give some of the best rugby analysis in the world. It is impartial, intelligent, and often amusing. Ignore the haters, the maturity is awesome. Well done. Solid coverage. Thanks for providing it.
2) The "knee". I dunno, I do like McCaw, but in terms of a citing it depends what mode of consistency you want to follow. In my mind that was equal to the Courtney Laws knee on Roncero (or Ledesma, I can't distinguish the two sometimes), but not as bad as the Cooper knee on McCaw. Of course, Lawes was banned and Cooper wasn't... so not sure with that one.
3) Rougerie played outstanding in that match so I want to give him the benefit of the doubt but it does look like there was a raking action on McCaw's face which I find quite unfortunate.
4) I was really hoping Joubert would get things right, but you have to look at that video. Clear that there was some poor officiating done unfortunately.
5)As fettsack says, the fine is bloody stupid. I hate all this IRB hate mongering that people use, how much they insult it and claim it is pro NZ, but in this instance I do feel that they are well out of line. That was a brilliant challenge and they were a couple of feet over the line: oh no... not the halfway line. Just bothers me when a classic moment of rugby history is ruined by red tape and technicalities!
6) Rugbydump, Grant Constable and all those who work for the site: you are all legends. This is my favourite rugby site, and even though (as far as I know) you are South African, and you beat my beloved England out of a second world cup in 2007, you give some of the best rugby analysis in the world. It is impartial, intelligent, and often amusing. Ignore the haters, the maturity is awesome. Well done. Solid coverage. Thanks for providing it.
AndrewSmall October 25, 2011 6:47 pm
This knee on Para is not intentional. It's practically impossible to knee someone at full speed, as you hit to clear a ruck, the Rougerie eye-gouge will probably just die, I believe it was intentional but I doubt McCaw cares - he won the World Cup. Joubert's refereeing was just what southern hemisphere refereeing is like, although, no Ref is perfect, he will have made a bad call here and there, they cannot see everything, so analyzing the whole game and picking out 5 or 6 mistakes is nonsense. I wish the refs at my level only made 5 or 6 bad calls in a game! This fine for France is nonsense as well, it didn't make any difference in the grand scheme of things, lets be honest, but a line does have to be drawn somewhere. And I agree with the comments that Rugbydump being impartial is idiotic, its been nothing but amazing all tournament.
@Rodofle McCaw is one of the best players around. He may go against the laws but then find me a single 7 that doesn't. To call him a cheat and a "professional cheater" is nonsense. Eye-gouging to "stop him cheating with total impugnity" is rubbish. You are not allowed to take the law into your own hands regardless. To do so is worse than the original offence.
@Rodofle McCaw is one of the best players around. He may go against the laws but then find me a single 7 that doesn't. To call him a cheat and a "professional cheater" is nonsense. Eye-gouging to "stop him cheating with total impugnity" is rubbish. You are not allowed to take the law into your own hands regardless. To do so is worse than the original offence.
bomsbomsable October 25, 2011 6:55 pm
Donalds kick is clearly over and fair play to him on it given that it appeared he'd never get a good crack at the AB's again.
I think any suggestion of McCaw intentionally injuring Parra is a classic case of his reputation preceding him. By the nature of the game accidents happen in rugby, what ever the slow-mo looks like watch the incident again in real time, he's just trying to hit the ruck and Parra is unfortunate enough to be caught while making an effort to roll away. Many will remember Paul O Connell accidentally taking Brian O Driscoll out accidentally with his knee in a nations match against England in 2010....these things happen! In any case Trinh Duc was little short of immense for France when he came on and turned around the game.
For me Rougerie soured his superb display by the McCaw incident. It's an offence that deserves a sanction- whether it be a gouge or not, it is clear that he makes contact with McCaws eye and this sight is full of such examples which were rightfully punished. Perhaps the IRB don't want to taint the pinnacle of the RWC but on any other occasion there would be a citing......but then again the date for citing has passed so it will be interesting to see if anything is done.
France being fined for their haka response is somewhat ludicrous, if a challenge is being laid down then why can't it be accepted- we saw fiji and samoa perform theirs simultaneously so why should northern hemisphere teams be expected to stand behind the 10 metre line acting like frightened sheep?
I'd concur with Matt Williams on Jouberts decisions, terrible! It'd be great to see the overall sin-binning record of countries in the RWC and see where NZ come in. Whats more it'd be very interesting see how many times McCaw has been binned as an AB!
Finally anyone who thinks rugby dump is biased is simply deluded. I don't think there is any other sight which gives as good and as broad a coverage of world rugby. Keep up the good work
I think any suggestion of McCaw intentionally injuring Parra is a classic case of his reputation preceding him. By the nature of the game accidents happen in rugby, what ever the slow-mo looks like watch the incident again in real time, he's just trying to hit the ruck and Parra is unfortunate enough to be caught while making an effort to roll away. Many will remember Paul O Connell accidentally taking Brian O Driscoll out accidentally with his knee in a nations match against England in 2010....these things happen! In any case Trinh Duc was little short of immense for France when he came on and turned around the game.
For me Rougerie soured his superb display by the McCaw incident. It's an offence that deserves a sanction- whether it be a gouge or not, it is clear that he makes contact with McCaws eye and this sight is full of such examples which were rightfully punished. Perhaps the IRB don't want to taint the pinnacle of the RWC but on any other occasion there would be a citing......but then again the date for citing has passed so it will be interesting to see if anything is done.
France being fined for their haka response is somewhat ludicrous, if a challenge is being laid down then why can't it be accepted- we saw fiji and samoa perform theirs simultaneously so why should northern hemisphere teams be expected to stand behind the 10 metre line acting like frightened sheep?
I'd concur with Matt Williams on Jouberts decisions, terrible! It'd be great to see the overall sin-binning record of countries in the RWC and see where NZ come in. Whats more it'd be very interesting see how many times McCaw has been binned as an AB!
Finally anyone who thinks rugby dump is biased is simply deluded. I don't think there is any other sight which gives as good and as broad a coverage of world rugby. Keep up the good work
Andrew Bates October 25, 2011 7:07 pm
I agree with the 1st commenter, French Fan, and Mark immediately above (6:20pm).
1) Though I thought he'd missed at the time, the kick isn't even worth discussing due to the French fullback's reaction.
2) Any forward, let alone any world class flanker heading to that breakdown when his opposite is there, mostly on his feet (TDS's left knee touches the ground) and ripping the ball would make his focus clearing out his opposite. And because TDS's head was down over the ball, McCaw's best option was to twist TDS off it, not to try to get under him and clear him out (like you would with an opponent who was too high) - and that's reason McCaw's right hand is high and his left is low. It is unfortunate Parra looked up just when he did but McCaw had no obligation to tip toe round him in seeking to clean TDS out as quickly as he could.
3) McCaw was on the ground, on his side, trapped by people above him. Rougerie had no rugby purpose in driving into him where he was, nor pulling at his eyes or face on the way back out. It was pure malice. You get head to head contact at rucks and mauls in the chaos of the breakdown (your head is most prominent so you inevitably lead with it) but should be at knee height or above, not ground level.
4) Haka fine? Oh for crying out loud. Really? A fine?!
5) There's plenty in the Irish TV analysis to argue about - i.e. Woodcock's arm hit the arm of Trinh Duc, who shrugs it and ducks; Kaino grabbed the ball while on his feet (same for McCaw previous clip), went off them, released when told and the ball spilled forward, Hore and others came from behind Kaino to grab it, then no French player had arrived when McCaw was behind Smith so still a tackle not a maul; Read didn't affect play but Parra didn't get back onside before moving out to mark Kahui so he did illegally affect play - but TDS should have won a penalty when he tackled Brad Thorn.
1) Though I thought he'd missed at the time, the kick isn't even worth discussing due to the French fullback's reaction.
2) Any forward, let alone any world class flanker heading to that breakdown when his opposite is there, mostly on his feet (TDS's left knee touches the ground) and ripping the ball would make his focus clearing out his opposite. And because TDS's head was down over the ball, McCaw's best option was to twist TDS off it, not to try to get under him and clear him out (like you would with an opponent who was too high) - and that's reason McCaw's right hand is high and his left is low. It is unfortunate Parra looked up just when he did but McCaw had no obligation to tip toe round him in seeking to clean TDS out as quickly as he could.
3) McCaw was on the ground, on his side, trapped by people above him. Rougerie had no rugby purpose in driving into him where he was, nor pulling at his eyes or face on the way back out. It was pure malice. You get head to head contact at rucks and mauls in the chaos of the breakdown (your head is most prominent so you inevitably lead with it) but should be at knee height or above, not ground level.
4) Haka fine? Oh for crying out loud. Really? A fine?!
5) There's plenty in the Irish TV analysis to argue about - i.e. Woodcock's arm hit the arm of Trinh Duc, who shrugs it and ducks; Kaino grabbed the ball while on his feet (same for McCaw previous clip), went off them, released when told and the ball spilled forward, Hore and others came from behind Kaino to grab it, then no French player had arrived when McCaw was behind Smith so still a tackle not a maul; Read didn't affect play but Parra didn't get back onside before moving out to mark Kahui so he did illegally affect play - but TDS should have won a penalty when he tackled Brad Thorn.
Tim October 26, 2011 10:53 am
Well said that man.
I also think there is definitely some merit in the SH reffing that was mentioned earlier by Moddeur, and I think this was definitely to the All Blacks advantage.
I also think there is definitely some merit in the SH reffing that was mentioned earlier by Moddeur, and I think this was definitely to the All Blacks advantage.
simmer October 26, 2011 2:02 pm
I too think your comments were well put.
Referees just sometimes aren't looking for the things you as a spectator are looking for I believe. They probably shut their eyes, like Wayne Barnes not awarding NZ a penalty after huge pressure in the French 22 four years ago, even though I was willing and searching for it. The same happened in the final I guess.
Referees just sometimes aren't looking for the things you as a spectator are looking for I believe. They probably shut their eyes, like Wayne Barnes not awarding NZ a penalty after huge pressure in the French 22 four years ago, even though I was willing and searching for it. The same happened in the final I guess.
Tanora October 26, 2011 9:22 pm
I agree with most of this but point 5 goes astray. Kaino pulled at the ball while off his feet and after being warned, that's a penalty. Also, was it not a knock on when he spilled the ball forward? As for the Parra-Read comparison, Parra gets his feet back to the line of the other Frenchmen on that side, so he does get back onside (that, or the penalty was given against all the French on that side but that wasn't my understanding).
I can see how the Parra offside was a tougher call for Joubert from where he was, but the Kaino call was inexcusable, there was no mitigation for his failure to penalise Kaino.
I can see how the Parra offside was a tougher call for Joubert from where he was, but the Kaino call was inexcusable, there was no mitigation for his failure to penalise Kaino.
UHtiger October 28, 2011 2:12 pm
Kaino did NOT have his hands on the ball to start with, when he does he go for it he is on his feet. And yes he does knock it on which Joubert does give the French the scrum feed for.
Read did not effect play in anyway. Parra was directly involved in the play.
Read did not effect play in anyway. Parra was directly involved in the play.
jackson October 25, 2011 7:13 pm
to address the impartiality of RugbyDump... i've actually been following for years and have never read or seen any kind of special treatment or favor to any one side in any league on this site and for that, i commend the site and it's editor/s.
the kick? obvious. it's in.
the knee? terrible and a real shame to have seen Parra off so early, but honestly... doesn't look or feel intentionally at all based on the angle and speed with which McCaw enters the ruck.
the eye gouge? shameful and obvious with the right camera angel. for any player. especially during a WC final and the world watching...
the fine against France for the haka? seriously? that's insulting as fan of the sport... I'm not even a French supporter, but it's AWESOME to see a team come up with their own pre-game war cry of sorts... it makes the sport unique and obviously it helped the French bring their A game and some quality rugby to my TV. good for them. get rid of that fine!
the ref? good and bad calls from the ref only sway the game so much... if you think the ref may be in favor of the opposition, it's up to you to secure the game by at least a try or two and make an obvious show of it. i think he did fine. more than any one of his critics anyway, I'm sure.
the kick? obvious. it's in.
the knee? terrible and a real shame to have seen Parra off so early, but honestly... doesn't look or feel intentionally at all based on the angle and speed with which McCaw enters the ruck.
the eye gouge? shameful and obvious with the right camera angel. for any player. especially during a WC final and the world watching...
the fine against France for the haka? seriously? that's insulting as fan of the sport... I'm not even a French supporter, but it's AWESOME to see a team come up with their own pre-game war cry of sorts... it makes the sport unique and obviously it helped the French bring their A game and some quality rugby to my TV. good for them. get rid of that fine!
the ref? good and bad calls from the ref only sway the game so much... if you think the ref may be in favor of the opposition, it's up to you to secure the game by at least a try or two and make an obvious show of it. i think he did fine. more than any one of his critics anyway, I'm sure.
AndreJ October 25, 2011 7:34 pm
I agree. The challenge to the Haka is what makes this sport Unique and Exciting. Even to have a Haka. But all this native rights stuff is over the top. Life is about challenges and tactics not about giving out rights and privillages to obsurd ideals.
Bunn October 25, 2011 7:14 pm
Kick is in, Parra was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's one thing to call McCaw a cheat, but another to call him dirty. As much as people dislike him, I wouldn't say he's my favourite, he only ever has eyes for the ball and I can't recall him ever being involved in any dirty play. The eye gouging doesn't look pretty, really no other explanation for it is there? I cannot be bothered to get involved in squabbling over refs calls, you could analyse every breakdown and call infringements so it's a cyclical argument.
The fine was stupid, the Irb likes it's arbitrary fines now doesn't......
The fine was stupid, the Irb likes it's arbitrary fines now doesn't......
Hugo October 25, 2011 7:15 pm
Yes, Mr Joubert isn't really appreciate in France right now =) he deserves this I think... Although the referee is a part of the game. The kick was in, absolutly. That's obvious. About MacCaw knee, I was say it could be both, it's not really possible to say. About Rougerie gouging on MacCaw, I think he deserves it too, particuliarly in that moment of the game. "Roll out, roll out..." you should go out. MacCaw didn't. That's also part of the game (=
Sure, MacCaw is a good player in the ruck phases, if he is allowed to do what he wants, same about Kainoe.
Sure, MacCaw is a good player in the ruck phases, if he is allowed to do what he wants, same about Kainoe.
UHtiger October 26, 2011 7:20 am
I've seen so many comments coming from french or french supporters that think eye gouging is justified. There are only a handful of things in life that i think harming a persons eyes is justified (like fighting for your life), a game of rugby is not one of them.
Speaks volumes that so many think it's an ok thing to to. Like has been said before, Maccaw had 4 or 5 players lying directly on top of him, very hard to role out in that situation.
Speaks volumes that so many think it's an ok thing to to. Like has been said before, Maccaw had 4 or 5 players lying directly on top of him, very hard to role out in that situation.
joeythelemur October 26, 2011 4:45 pm
Exactly right on the eye gouge/rake. Seems like people are letting the intensity of the match get to them. There can be NO justification for hands across the eyes, not on Saturday morning, not in Top 14, not in 6 nations/tri nations, not in a world cup. And yes, not even in the last few minutes of a tense final.
bib160 October 25, 2011 7:17 pm
The kick was in, no question about it.
The knee wasn't intentional, the fist might have been.
The "contact in the eye area" from Rougerie was a stupid answer to MacCaw (and most of his team mates) being off side in each and every ruck.
The fine is the logical result of a rule made to prevent things like 2007 were France won part of the game during the haka.
RD is usually posting video that states the facts as they are and we make the interpretation.
Overall the refereeing during this world cup wasn't great and i hope something will be done soon to reduce the discrepancies in the interpretation of the rules (especially at the breakdowns)
The knee wasn't intentional, the fist might have been.
The "contact in the eye area" from Rougerie was a stupid answer to MacCaw (and most of his team mates) being off side in each and every ruck.
The fine is the logical result of a rule made to prevent things like 2007 were France won part of the game during the haka.
RD is usually posting video that states the facts as they are and we make the interpretation.
Overall the refereeing during this world cup wasn't great and i hope something will be done soon to reduce the discrepancies in the interpretation of the rules (especially at the breakdowns)
AndreJ October 25, 2011 7:25 pm
Interesting Article. I was nuetral before the game, but have to admitt I sided with France. Underdog Syndrome and it would make History for France to Win. It wasn't a very clean game. I think Rougires eye gouging doesnt help things at all. The Refing was Horrible. Maybe they should have 2 Refs in the future for the World Cup Tourney?
elaine October 25, 2011 7:27 pm
as an england fan I do find it amusing when other teams suffer the same fate as us! courtney lawes went in with a knee and got 3 weeks ban. gouging is a regular offence against england players. We all feel for our team when we lose and we will always call unfair play against us but there is a time when you have to let it go and hope that in 4 years time the tables will be turned in your favour! have enjoyed the coverage from rugby dump, the fans are biased not you!!!
pennelty! not really a knock with his knee! deliberate eye gouge though!!
pennelty! not really a knock with his knee! deliberate eye gouge though!!
AndreJ October 25, 2011 7:30 pm
But you have to remember the All Blacks are well known for dirty play. Brian O'driscoll nearly getting his neck broken by Richie McCaw and was it Nanu? for bieng a frustratingly good player was why he was picked up and dumped on his head. I think there is long History of the Blacks bieng just that. Kind of like the Bad guys in an epic struggle. All of New Zealand loves the All Blacks but to the rest of the World they seem to me like the "Bad guys" that always win. So what is a world cup to them but just another way to boost thier already giant egos?
eglionel October 25, 2011 9:09 pm
ehh did you mean Tana Umaga and K. Mealamu tackle on O'Driscoll? British Irish and Lions vs All Black 2005 tour.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTVhckB3juk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTVhckB3juk&feature=related
fittler October 29, 2011 9:48 pm
Thats a pretty good example of incompetent French refereeing haha
cheyanqui October 25, 2011 11:49 pm
yeah -- they've slowly but surely become as insufferable as New York Yankees and Dallas Cowboys fans.
breakaway October 26, 2011 3:58 am
@AndreJ: "But you have to remember the All Blacks are well known for dirty play."
The only example you can think of to back up this claim is an incident that happened so long ago you can't even remember who was involved. Why don't the numerous dangerous tackles, eye gouges, and other misdemeanors that have been clearly recorded by pretty much every team in international rugby in the 6 years since, make all those teams also "well known for dirty play"? Because it doesn't suit your prejudices.
There is a video on this page showing a French player clearly and deliberately raking the face of another player with his fingers. This sort of evidence has resulted in long suspensions several times in recent years and such acts are universally condemned. If the video showed a NZ player doing it this site would be absolutely full of hate comment about NZ rugby and New Zealanders. Generally the response to this video, including from NZers, has been quite restrained and often sensible considering how damning it is, but there are some people even trying to say that it is a legitimate tactic.. the hypocrisy is mind-boggling.
The only example you can think of to back up this claim is an incident that happened so long ago you can't even remember who was involved. Why don't the numerous dangerous tackles, eye gouges, and other misdemeanors that have been clearly recorded by pretty much every team in international rugby in the 6 years since, make all those teams also "well known for dirty play"? Because it doesn't suit your prejudices.
There is a video on this page showing a French player clearly and deliberately raking the face of another player with his fingers. This sort of evidence has resulted in long suspensions several times in recent years and such acts are universally condemned. If the video showed a NZ player doing it this site would be absolutely full of hate comment about NZ rugby and New Zealanders. Generally the response to this video, including from NZers, has been quite restrained and often sensible considering how damning it is, but there are some people even trying to say that it is a legitimate tactic.. the hypocrisy is mind-boggling.
mbdefon October 25, 2011 7:32 pm
I can see nonu's not releasing the ball there.. just saying.
moddeur October 25, 2011 7:34 pm
This just in from stuff.co.nz:
"I got a poke in the eye. I don't know if it was intentional, it was pretty quick," McCaw said.
An intentional quick poke in the eye suggests that Rougerie was trying to rip McCaw's face off and failed (which we tend to see in the video - where he seems to go for his nose? then slips then goes for his eyes? ears?).
"I got a poke in the eye. I don't know if it was intentional, it was pretty quick," McCaw said.
An intentional quick poke in the eye suggests that Rougerie was trying to rip McCaw's face off and failed (which we tend to see in the video - where he seems to go for his nose? then slips then goes for his eyes? ears?).
Aaron October 26, 2011 7:01 am
Moddeur; oh please! Does it sound better to you that he was trying to rip his nose off? Wake up to yourself. Common sense tells you that if you want to go for the eyes the way to do it is to rake up the face until the finger stops in the eye socket, the area in the skull with no bone. No surprises though, the French have done it in the past and will do it again. Go Richie, NZ world champs again! Clearly the All Blacks were the best team in the tournament. NZ beat France twice and didn't loose to Tonga. Enough said.
LND October 27, 2011 10:21 am
aaron did you get gouged also? it's just you're so one eyed! :D
If you have ever been to this site before you might recognise moddeur as a frequent poster who does not make nonsense proclamations.
By the way, it would do you no harm to be graceful in victory as you will not be world champs forever (they can't stage the tournament in NZ every 4 years)
If you have ever been to this site before you might recognise moddeur as a frequent poster who does not make nonsense proclamations.
By the way, it would do you no harm to be graceful in victory as you will not be world champs forever (they can't stage the tournament in NZ every 4 years)
moddeur October 27, 2011 7:19 pm
Well I do say something stupid here and there, I'm not perfect :)
Regarding Rougerie, it's just that he's such a nice lad ... makes it difficult to imagine he could do such a thing. There is no excuse for this type of behaviour, even if we all know why he lost it for a brief spell.
Regarding the comment about "the French", it's not so untrue. It is in fact true that in French rugby it is considered sort of normal to do justice yourself, kneeing, punching, ??gouging?? (never seen a case at my amateur level) players who cheat or do dirty tricks that the referee doesn't notice. I personally don't do it. In fact I remember getting more or less grabbed by the balls during my last game on Friday, and not doing anything in retaliation. I just keep focused on the game.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind ...
Regarding Rougerie, it's just that he's such a nice lad ... makes it difficult to imagine he could do such a thing. There is no excuse for this type of behaviour, even if we all know why he lost it for a brief spell.
Regarding the comment about "the French", it's not so untrue. It is in fact true that in French rugby it is considered sort of normal to do justice yourself, kneeing, punching, ??gouging?? (never seen a case at my amateur level) players who cheat or do dirty tricks that the referee doesn't notice. I personally don't do it. In fact I remember getting more or less grabbed by the balls during my last game on Friday, and not doing anything in retaliation. I just keep focused on the game.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind ...
AndreJ October 25, 2011 7:36 pm
No doubt about it Morgan Para should be Red Carded for Attacking Richie McCaws Knee. It was strange how he managed to attack others knees to the point he couldnt play anymore. Look at the photo at the begining of the article. You can see How mad he was.
Lou October 25, 2011 7:38 pm
1 - Kick - good
2 - McCaw - No malice and unintentional
3 - Eye Gouge - it happen, but see 5
4 - Haka - Who cares. I think the Haka is stupid. Do the anthems and get it on.
5 - One sided calls on the ref. The Irish channel analysis has it spot on. The eye gouge is what happens when you let one team get away with murder in the breakdown. Solution, bring back rucking and eye gouges will go away.
2 - McCaw - No malice and unintentional
3 - Eye Gouge - it happen, but see 5
4 - Haka - Who cares. I think the Haka is stupid. Do the anthems and get it on.
5 - One sided calls on the ref. The Irish channel analysis has it spot on. The eye gouge is what happens when you let one team get away with murder in the breakdown. Solution, bring back rucking and eye gouges will go away.
i love bacon October 25, 2011 7:56 pm
...hmmm...I understand all the frustration surrounding the match; it was a final, so people are especially critical.
But the complaint against the Parra incident is one of the sillier ones to surface.
Interpretations of what happened aside, if I were Parra, I'd be proud to have a couple shiners like that after the game. Wouldn't be too happy with getting benched because of it, but Trinh-Duc probably put on a better performance that Parra would have anyway. So it all worked out for the best.
Maybe some of the indignation comes from the kiwi response to Quade Cooper dropping a knee on Saint McCaw...
But of all the things to discuss about a rugby match, a bit of knees in the breakdown, speculating on the intentions of the players, has to be among the most trite.
Fuhgeddaboudit.
But the complaint against the Parra incident is one of the sillier ones to surface.
Interpretations of what happened aside, if I were Parra, I'd be proud to have a couple shiners like that after the game. Wouldn't be too happy with getting benched because of it, but Trinh-Duc probably put on a better performance that Parra would have anyway. So it all worked out for the best.
Maybe some of the indignation comes from the kiwi response to Quade Cooper dropping a knee on Saint McCaw...
But of all the things to discuss about a rugby match, a bit of knees in the breakdown, speculating on the intentions of the players, has to be among the most trite.
Fuhgeddaboudit.
AndreJ October 25, 2011 11:19 pm
You know as much as I have never liked the Blacks, I have to admit. New Zealand has been crucial in taking Rugby to a whole new level. Its like the clash of the Titans out there. The game rarely has a dull moment on any level. I was impressed by the performance by no namers in the Rugby world like Canada and Japan in this Cup. So I do give a little respect to New Z. 4 more years seems like an eternity to wait.
Oliver October 25, 2011 8:36 pm
To all Kiwis:
I can get over the refereeing. Things went our way in 2007 and against Wales in the semi. Not this time. Well that's rugby.
I can get over the Parra thing. That's rugby. Same for Mermoz being punched by Weepu.
I can get over McCaw never being penalized cause he's McCaw.
Basically I can get over the defeat. It was a proud defeat.
What I can NOT get over is the abuse heaped on our players by your press.
The B team 'disgrace'. Then the 'French filth'. And if the Rougerie thing is real, why no citing? Dusautoir being smeared as well. Pape accused of spitting on a journalist....
Come on. Enough is enough. There was a time when I would have proudly worn the AB's colors, as a symbol of rugby. No more. You may have won the cup, but you've lost a great deal of respect the world over. Not just in France. Even English newspapers called the refereeing "laughably one-sided"!
(the Independent)
Sorry about the rant. I just had to get this off my chest.
RD, keep up the good job.
I can get over the refereeing. Things went our way in 2007 and against Wales in the semi. Not this time. Well that's rugby.
I can get over the Parra thing. That's rugby. Same for Mermoz being punched by Weepu.
I can get over McCaw never being penalized cause he's McCaw.
Basically I can get over the defeat. It was a proud defeat.
What I can NOT get over is the abuse heaped on our players by your press.
The B team 'disgrace'. Then the 'French filth'. And if the Rougerie thing is real, why no citing? Dusautoir being smeared as well. Pape accused of spitting on a journalist....
Come on. Enough is enough. There was a time when I would have proudly worn the AB's colors, as a symbol of rugby. No more. You may have won the cup, but you've lost a great deal of respect the world over. Not just in France. Even English newspapers called the refereeing "laughably one-sided"!
(the Independent)
Sorry about the rant. I just had to get this off my chest.
RD, keep up the good job.
Jimmy October 25, 2011 9:15 pm
Please remember that our press does not represent us as a people. Our press spend their time thinking up inflammatory headlines/stories in order to get people to click on them, this brings them ad revenue. Our people spend their time enjoying rugby (and curiously clicking on inflammatory headlines).
menial October 25, 2011 9:57 pm
You should pity us, we have to put up with them all year round :/
We were quite fortunate to have guest comments from the likes of Jake White, Nick Mallet, and a host of former ABs.
So much journalism descends to muckrakers selling papers.
We were quite fortunate to have guest comments from the likes of Jake White, Nick Mallet, and a host of former ABs.
So much journalism descends to muckrakers selling papers.
menial October 25, 2011 10:18 pm
Apologies for the double post, I just read JG's comment below.
If the All Blacks lost to Tonga, barely beaten a 14 man Welsh team (including the nature in which they played the second half, can you really say they ), struggled for a large portion of a match against Japan, how do you think the NZ media would treat them? Granted, they may have waited until after the RWC for parochial/PR reasons, but the response would be so much worse. For real.
Also, to say that the ahem, alleged eye gouging didn't occur as he wasn't cited is comical.
I would say that if you truly want to wear the colours of rugby- a fifteen man style with technical excellence and passion everywhere (apart from the lineout) then you should still be in a black jersey. Hell, because of Adidas pricing, it's more than twice as affordable for you than it is for New Zealanders.
If the All Blacks lost to Tonga, barely beaten a 14 man Welsh team (including the nature in which they played the second half, can you really say they ), struggled for a large portion of a match against Japan, how do you think the NZ media would treat them? Granted, they may have waited until after the RWC for parochial/PR reasons, but the response would be so much worse. For real.
Also, to say that the ahem, alleged eye gouging didn't occur as he wasn't cited is comical.
I would say that if you truly want to wear the colours of rugby- a fifteen man style with technical excellence and passion everywhere (apart from the lineout) then you should still be in a black jersey. Hell, because of Adidas pricing, it's more than twice as affordable for you than it is for New Zealanders.
UHtiger October 26, 2011 7:37 am
The aricle was written by an ex all black who in one game against the french, was rucked in the head needing stitches, eye gouged and had his scrotum ripped open from someone stamping on his balls, he was just making a comment saying that the french arnt adverse to using certain tactics and seeing the vision of Rougerie trying to remove Maccaws eyes it seems his point was a valid one. And the press have every right to publish the spitting/slapping article as the french players were stupid enough to commit the offences.
I remember a couple years ago when the big guy who used to play centre for france had claimed that he was mugged in wellington. News papers around the world went nuts over it and sites like this were full of people spitting hate towards new zealand, when it turned out he was lying i didnt notice anyone giving any apologies.
I remember a couple years ago when the big guy who used to play centre for france had claimed that he was mugged in wellington. News papers around the world went nuts over it and sites like this were full of people spitting hate towards new zealand, when it turned out he was lying i didnt notice anyone giving any apologies.
UHtiger October 26, 2011 7:41 am
Oh and the reason Rougerie wasnt cited was because neither Richie or the all blacks management laid a complaint. The fact that he did it was only brought to light because of someone outside the the group bringing it up. The review date has now passed so it's too late.
Colombes October 26, 2011 11:06 am
as said before, rugbydump is a place where people try to be objective and not agressive.
1- the goal of shelford tribune was not to be objective but to give his feelings on french players doing cheaps shots in order to change the outcome of the match. do a 78th minute cheap shot changed the outcome of the match? nop, but you prefer to forget mc caw "unintentional" fist on parra, weepu punch on mermoz, woodcock trying to decapitate trinh-duc... :)
2- Wellington incident, completly off-subject, but ok, lets'answer: following bastareaud lies because he had hurt himself because of alcohol, FFR and the french prime minister presented their excuses to nz, bastareaud tried to suicide as he was on depression at the moment, he has been suspended for 6 months and never really came back at his real level and missed this world cup. is it enough for you?
2- concerning the eye-gouge, wasn't it nz newspapers who accused dusautoir of eye-gouge in order to discredit his IRB best-player title..? i personnaly hate eye-gouge and would have prefered to see rougerie sanctionned if judged deliberate. but again, i invite you to read mc caw reaction "I got a poke in the eye. I don't know if it was intentional, it was pretty quick" mc caw is maybe a breakdown cheater but he had the minimum of class for not complaining about somethin he wasn't sure.
this forum is not a battle for who is wrong, who is right, as it's quite impossible to do :) but trying to bring quite fair analysis
so again, read, inform yourself, try to be objective, or u will have others "coward", "eye-gouger" french fans like me to recall you the... truth ;)
1- the goal of shelford tribune was not to be objective but to give his feelings on french players doing cheaps shots in order to change the outcome of the match. do a 78th minute cheap shot changed the outcome of the match? nop, but you prefer to forget mc caw "unintentional" fist on parra, weepu punch on mermoz, woodcock trying to decapitate trinh-duc... :)
2- Wellington incident, completly off-subject, but ok, lets'answer: following bastareaud lies because he had hurt himself because of alcohol, FFR and the french prime minister presented their excuses to nz, bastareaud tried to suicide as he was on depression at the moment, he has been suspended for 6 months and never really came back at his real level and missed this world cup. is it enough for you?
2- concerning the eye-gouge, wasn't it nz newspapers who accused dusautoir of eye-gouge in order to discredit his IRB best-player title..? i personnaly hate eye-gouge and would have prefered to see rougerie sanctionned if judged deliberate. but again, i invite you to read mc caw reaction "I got a poke in the eye. I don't know if it was intentional, it was pretty quick" mc caw is maybe a breakdown cheater but he had the minimum of class for not complaining about somethin he wasn't sure.
this forum is not a battle for who is wrong, who is right, as it's quite impossible to do :) but trying to bring quite fair analysis
so again, read, inform yourself, try to be objective, or u will have others "coward", "eye-gouger" french fans like me to recall you the... truth ;)
Spud October 27, 2011 3:26 am
McCaw knew what had happened alright. He just did not want to cause trouble or blow up an incident that would detract from an otherwise great world cup. McCaw handled it very well in simply staying out of it and saying nothing. His behavior both on and off field has been outstanding.
It is also All Black tradition to simply carry on no matter how badly they are injured and how foul the opposition play. How much acting would we have seen if a French player had someone from another team scratch at his eyes?
It is part of the All Black tradition not to complain. By way of contrast, consider the Hollywood style acting the French team displayed against both Wales and the All Blacks. Guys apparently dying on the field when clearly they had not been hurt in any way at all. Then when an opposing player gets sent off or penalized, instantly the French actors have a miraculous recovery. The ref was right to warn France for delaying over that in the final.
Buck Shelford's warning proved to be absolutely correct. The All Blacks behaved well both on and off the field. No eye gouging, no acting, just great Rugby. No spitting at the press, no complaining about the conduct of other teams. Well done to them. The All Blacks deserve their victory, not only for being the best Rugby players, but also for clean play, and professionalism off the field. McCaw in that respect has been outstanding. Well spoken, sensible and professional.
It is also All Black tradition to simply carry on no matter how badly they are injured and how foul the opposition play. How much acting would we have seen if a French player had someone from another team scratch at his eyes?
It is part of the All Black tradition not to complain. By way of contrast, consider the Hollywood style acting the French team displayed against both Wales and the All Blacks. Guys apparently dying on the field when clearly they had not been hurt in any way at all. Then when an opposing player gets sent off or penalized, instantly the French actors have a miraculous recovery. The ref was right to warn France for delaying over that in the final.
Buck Shelford's warning proved to be absolutely correct. The All Blacks behaved well both on and off the field. No eye gouging, no acting, just great Rugby. No spitting at the press, no complaining about the conduct of other teams. Well done to them. The All Blacks deserve their victory, not only for being the best Rugby players, but also for clean play, and professionalism off the field. McCaw in that respect has been outstanding. Well spoken, sensible and professional.
UHtiger October 27, 2011 11:42 am
Just saw on an australian website that Rougerie has actually sued another rugby player after he was fended off and hurt his throat. What a bloody hypocrite.
moddeur October 27, 2011 7:43 pm
If you are referring to Morgan Parra's nasal fracture (read the news) in the final, then I suppose you are right and the boy was clearly simulating.
If you think that spitting at a papparrazzi annoying you when you're a "celebrity" is a scandal, then you should read the gossip section more often.
Other than that I have no complaints, apart from my take on McCaw, who in my eyes is nothing more than a modern-day Dallaglio on the field (and a good guy off it). Aren't we all entitled to our opinion?
If you think that spitting at a papparrazzi annoying you when you're a "celebrity" is a scandal, then you should read the gossip section more often.
Other than that I have no complaints, apart from my take on McCaw, who in my eyes is nothing more than a modern-day Dallaglio on the field (and a good guy off it). Aren't we all entitled to our opinion?
UHtiger October 27, 2011 11:57 am
What a joke, like i said, Shelford had first hand experience with just what the french will do to win and as i also said it was completely founded in Rougeries actions. Trying to say the Parra injury is anything more than an accident is just clutching at straws, Maccaw didnt once look at Parra and it was Parra who lifted his head up into the line of fire.
It was actually Keith Quin who first brought up the eye gouge (one of the most respected commentators in rugby, he's never been bias towards the all blacks so if he brings something up its for a reason.
If the stuff you've written is your idea of objective then you clearly dont understand what the word means.
It was actually Keith Quin who first brought up the eye gouge (one of the most respected commentators in rugby, he's never been bias towards the all blacks so if he brings something up its for a reason.
If the stuff you've written is your idea of objective then you clearly dont understand what the word means.
moddeur October 27, 2011 7:29 pm
Shelford has experience with what some French players did in amateur rugby of the 1980s. How does that amount to "what the French will do to win?". In the 1980s Argentina and England were fighting over a rock and a Hollywood actor was president of the USA.
My take on things: Rougerie is a very nice lad, but he is filmed trying to rip McCaw's head off at the 76th minute of a rugby world cup final. Perhaps it was eye-raking, perhaps it wasn't, I can't tell, even objectively, although I don't think it looks good for Rougerie.
I honestly don't know the speed of the slow-motion, did the whole action last 1/10th of a second or 2 seconds?.
Now in my mind, be it French or not, since Rougerie is such a nice guy, I'll believe he was pissed off and didn't try to make McCaw lose an eye. Maybe I'm biased. But maybe I'm wrong, and if I am I'll be the first guy to ask that Rougerie be banned for ages.
My take on things: Rougerie is a very nice lad, but he is filmed trying to rip McCaw's head off at the 76th minute of a rugby world cup final. Perhaps it was eye-raking, perhaps it wasn't, I can't tell, even objectively, although I don't think it looks good for Rougerie.
I honestly don't know the speed of the slow-motion, did the whole action last 1/10th of a second or 2 seconds?.
Now in my mind, be it French or not, since Rougerie is such a nice guy, I'll believe he was pissed off and didn't try to make McCaw lose an eye. Maybe I'm biased. But maybe I'm wrong, and if I am I'll be the first guy to ask that Rougerie be banned for ages.
UHtiger October 27, 2011 10:29 pm
"Maybe i'm biased". Yes, yes you are. Trying to say the gouge was anything but confirms this.
80's or 1800's, he still has an opinion aswell as first hand experience so therefore can state it. The fact that so many french made comments on this and other sites condole Maccaw getting eye gouged because they think he cheats is testament to an underlying attitude which Buck was commenting on. After the 99 world cup game more than a few all blacks complained (behind closed doors) about having had similar treatment at the hands of the french. No-one said anything at the time as they did'nt want to make excuses about the loss.
80's or 1800's, he still has an opinion aswell as first hand experience so therefore can state it. The fact that so many french made comments on this and other sites condole Maccaw getting eye gouged because they think he cheats is testament to an underlying attitude which Buck was commenting on. After the 99 world cup game more than a few all blacks complained (behind closed doors) about having had similar treatment at the hands of the french. No-one said anything at the time as they did'nt want to make excuses about the loss.
Spud October 28, 2011 1:59 am
Andy Hayden commented on the radio that in one game playing in France (From memory in Toulouse?) when the the All Blacks came off the field 7 out of the 15 players had scratches around their eyes. Buck Shelford's warning once again is one that any team would do well to heed.
I notice that McCaw had a couple of cuts around his eyes. One right in the socket by his nose and one above the nose. Was that two separate gouging incidents perhaps? How many other All Blacks got that treatment in the final?
I notice that McCaw had a couple of cuts around his eyes. One right in the socket by his nose and one above the nose. Was that two separate gouging incidents perhaps? How many other All Blacks got that treatment in the final?
Colombes October 28, 2011 9:53 am
UH Tiger, after your 50 or 60 comments where u insult frenchs, try to glorify all blacks victory, mc caw is god, all blacks fans never complain, all blacks are "fair play", etc... everybody know that french are filth, coward, whiners, etc... i think people have quite understand what you are about. it's maybe maybe time to rest for you, time is precious
again, congrats to all blacks, all credits for their most complete world cup (and when i say all blacks, i think the players and staff, not their fans and newspapers)
and congrats to you: you would do a formidable press officer.
ps: send your candidature to NZ Herald
ps2: o-b-j-e-c-t-i-v-i-t-y (very important)
again, congrats to all blacks, all credits for their most complete world cup (and when i say all blacks, i think the players and staff, not their fans and newspapers)
and congrats to you: you would do a formidable press officer.
ps: send your candidature to NZ Herald
ps2: o-b-j-e-c-t-i-v-i-t-y (very important)
moddeur October 28, 2011 12:44 pm
Colombes, as far as I recall, UHTiger is also the guy who said that Cory Jane actually did Traille a major favour by tackling him in the air during the France-AB pool match (to prevent Traille from tipping over and hurting himself - Jane is such a great guy when you think about it).
Basically, UHTiger is biased, you're biased, and I'm biased. Conversation seems a bit futile so I'm moving on now.
Basically, UHTiger is biased, you're biased, and I'm biased. Conversation seems a bit futile so I'm moving on now.
moddeur October 28, 2011 12:39 pm
Well as I pointed below, I see 2 All-Blacks in the following list, with corresponding events in NZ domestic games: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye-gouging_%28rugby_union%29
There are 5 French players in that same list.
How many players have gone unpunished? If the IRB only catches 1 criminal in 10, then there are still 20 cases of unpunished eye-gouging ABs out there ...
What I'm trying to say is that eye-gouging is nasty and unforgivable but it's not typically French or typically non-NZ. You can therefore let it go, France is no worse than any other nation of rugby. Rougerie is a major asshole if he's eye-gouged McCaw. Rougerie. Not "The French". Rougerie on his own. Get it?
There are 5 French players in that same list.
How many players have gone unpunished? If the IRB only catches 1 criminal in 10, then there are still 20 cases of unpunished eye-gouging ABs out there ...
What I'm trying to say is that eye-gouging is nasty and unforgivable but it's not typically French or typically non-NZ. You can therefore let it go, France is no worse than any other nation of rugby. Rougerie is a major asshole if he's eye-gouged McCaw. Rougerie. Not "The French". Rougerie on his own. Get it?
UHtiger October 28, 2011 2:21 pm
then by your reckoning of the 1 in 10 are caught, counting rougerie that means there are 60 french cases.
fittler October 29, 2011 10:07 pm
Keith Quinn not biased towards the AB's - thats the worst comment ever mate haha
Jeri October 26, 2011 9:10 am
I get irritated by the NZ press as much as the next bloke, but the NZ press just love to hate you because last time you guys were here, one of your players LIED to us. A nice young man by the name of Mathieu Bastareaud got injured one night and said he got racially assaulted on the streets.
When I heard the news I was truly horribly ashamed, the entire nation was appalled, it was on the headlines everywhere. The prime minister made a public apology.
And then Bastareaud said "sorry I made that up, I got injured because I was drunk".
If there's one thing blokes can NOT get over, is to have our goodwill and sympathey betrayed.
Sorry about bringing up ancient history we'd both like to forget, I just had to get it off my chest.
Love you too RD.
When I heard the news I was truly horribly ashamed, the entire nation was appalled, it was on the headlines everywhere. The prime minister made a public apology.
And then Bastareaud said "sorry I made that up, I got injured because I was drunk".
If there's one thing blokes can NOT get over, is to have our goodwill and sympathey betrayed.
Sorry about bringing up ancient history we'd both like to forget, I just had to get it off my chest.
Love you too RD.
david October 25, 2011 9:06 pm
as a neutral fan
1. whoever says it missed your blind
2. nothing in it no intent at all the slow mo makes you think it is but real time shows just clearing out.
3. rougerie is definatley trying to gouge im afraid he went stright for the eyes and raked.
4. the penalty that won it was wrong nz were holding on and the ball was out no back foot.
5. fine is bloody ridiculous
6. this site is great haters will be haters
1. whoever says it missed your blind
2. nothing in it no intent at all the slow mo makes you think it is but real time shows just clearing out.
3. rougerie is definatley trying to gouge im afraid he went stright for the eyes and raked.
4. the penalty that won it was wrong nz were holding on and the ball was out no back foot.
5. fine is bloody ridiculous
6. this site is great haters will be haters
Just Call Me Ehtch October 25, 2011 9:07 pm
My personal apologies if I have crossed the line to anyone. It was a heat of a moment thing, and no ill feeling was really meant at all. The last two Wales games was quite stressful, and one's veins were bulging with built up blood pressuse, and it has been quite difficult to come back down to planet Earth.
Peace and love everyone. Here's to the great game of rugger.
Peace and love everyone. Here's to the great game of rugger.
JG October 25, 2011 9:29 pm
Oliver, I understand your comment about the NZ press. If you look at one of the last press conferences, Ritchie McCaw also expresses his frustration at them, so the frustration was not just coming from the other side. I would not take to heart the rubbish coming from the press. After all, the press is not a true reflection of the people. I continually see the rubbish coming out from the Australian press, its the same as the NZ press, and as I understand it, the same as the French press - not sure if any of them are as bad as the English press though, who have a tendency to direct their writings at their own players.
At the end of the day, most people from most countries are decent hard working people who happen to live in free speech societies where jounalists desperately try and come up with a new story each and every day to justify thier salary.
At the end of the day, most people from most countries are decent hard working people who happen to live in free speech societies where jounalists desperately try and come up with a new story each and every day to justify thier salary.
Mr Rugby October 25, 2011 9:31 pm
Im a french fan and I think All Blacks are great winners of this RWC. Some decisions of the referee seemed to me 'strange' but nothing scandalous. We must harmonize the rules between hemisphere, is a priority. We need referees German, Spanish, Chinese or Brazilian umpiring the World Cup, I saw to some 'strange' decisions against Argentina.
Andrew Bates October 25, 2011 9:46 pm
AndreJ doesn't know what he's talking about. It was Tana Umaga and Keven Mealamu. His other point seems as valid.
I had meant to say I agreed with French Fan Cheyanqui, not the actual first commenter oslosinclair.
Also, people seem to miss the point that McCaw was trapped by mulitple French players over the top of him (which wedged him there, unable to move, when Rougerie came in). So the arguments that he deserves it because he didn't roll away or that he deliberately kneed/punched Parra, or that he is always a deliberate cheat (he plays to the referee) or felt up your sister when she was 18 and he was 17 are all nonsense. He's the best, you'd love to have him on your team, you hate him because he's not and you want some excuse for why the All Blacks are better than your team, get over it.
I am disgusted by people who think that not rolling away makes being eye gouged deserved. I'd think any schoolboy would know that you can get knocked over at rucks or in tackles and can't roll away because others have fallen on you. Those of us who have played rugby for more than 25 years know what eye-gouging is like, how helpless you are, and how you risk a red card if you respond? People who do it are scum!
I had meant to say I agreed with French Fan Cheyanqui, not the actual first commenter oslosinclair.
Also, people seem to miss the point that McCaw was trapped by mulitple French players over the top of him (which wedged him there, unable to move, when Rougerie came in). So the arguments that he deserves it because he didn't roll away or that he deliberately kneed/punched Parra, or that he is always a deliberate cheat (he plays to the referee) or felt up your sister when she was 18 and he was 17 are all nonsense. He's the best, you'd love to have him on your team, you hate him because he's not and you want some excuse for why the All Blacks are better than your team, get over it.
I am disgusted by people who think that not rolling away makes being eye gouged deserved. I'd think any schoolboy would know that you can get knocked over at rucks or in tackles and can't roll away because others have fallen on you. Those of us who have played rugby for more than 25 years know what eye-gouging is like, how helpless you are, and how you risk a red card if you respond? People who do it are scum!
cheyanqui October 25, 2011 11:52 pm
oslo was only first because he replied to Rugbydump's post in order to be first.
I wonder if he owned a car parts store, if he'd name it "AAAAAAA Auto Parts" just to be first in the phone book.
I wonder if he owned a car parts store, if he'd name it "AAAAAAA Auto Parts" just to be first in the phone book.
i love bacon October 26, 2011 12:08 am
Damnit, cheyanqui! I already have to listen to that commercial five times during NFL games (the only time I watch tv live)...now you have to bring it here?!
cheyanqui October 26, 2011 3:48 am
Sorry, pure coincidence. I wasn't channeling that ad, but rather a real place back in my hometown -- called "AAAACO"
oslosinclair October 25, 2011 10:48 pm
andrew bates... you're the problem..but you don't realise it....condemn the spear on o'driscoll if you can... you won't be able to...NZ obsession with rugby is unhealthy. McCaw didn't deserve to be eye gouged - it was cat.
JB October 25, 2011 10:56 pm
Good to see some intelligent responses, unlike many other rugby websites that are full of biased, angry fanboys from all over the world.
First off I am a kiwi, and will try to bring an unbiased perspective to the table. A lot of people are saying that France played better and deserved to win. Couldn't disagree more, if France deserved to win they would've done so! Even after including all of the missed kicks by Weepu and Trinh-Duc, the score would've been a 16-10 win to the All Blacks.
1. Donald's kick went over. "Leave it to Beaver!!!". Can't believe we won the RWC with our 4th-choice first-five, let alone without only Dan Carter. Amazing.
2. McCaw's knee on Parra looked accidental but clumsy. All he was doing was trying to compete for the ball in the ruck.
3. Rougerie is lucky to not have been cited yet but in my opinion he should be given a similar sentence to Italian hooker Leonardo Ghiraldini. I can't see how anybody would think that was accidental and not on purpose. This kind of dirty play is not needed in our game, ever, and the judiciary must be consistent in their punishment. It's a shame that the citing period has been and gone, but full marks of respect to Richie McCaw and the All Blacks for not making a big deal out of it. They just seemed relieved to win the RWC.
4. We can sit here all day long and analyse every single ruck and maul and point out illegal incidents committed by both teams. I felt that Joubert was lenient to both teams and allowed the game to flow. In the first half it seemed that France got the rub of the green, while in the second half NZ were lucky. He missed a number of forward passes and knock ons in the first half by both teams. Seems fair and balanced to me and things evened out until Rougerie's eye gouging video footage was shown last night on Reunion. Definitely worthy of a red card if the officials caught him in the act. It seems that there are a few sore losers out there: South Africa, Australia, Wales and now Franc
First off I am a kiwi, and will try to bring an unbiased perspective to the table. A lot of people are saying that France played better and deserved to win. Couldn't disagree more, if France deserved to win they would've done so! Even after including all of the missed kicks by Weepu and Trinh-Duc, the score would've been a 16-10 win to the All Blacks.
1. Donald's kick went over. "Leave it to Beaver!!!". Can't believe we won the RWC with our 4th-choice first-five, let alone without only Dan Carter. Amazing.
2. McCaw's knee on Parra looked accidental but clumsy. All he was doing was trying to compete for the ball in the ruck.
3. Rougerie is lucky to not have been cited yet but in my opinion he should be given a similar sentence to Italian hooker Leonardo Ghiraldini. I can't see how anybody would think that was accidental and not on purpose. This kind of dirty play is not needed in our game, ever, and the judiciary must be consistent in their punishment. It's a shame that the citing period has been and gone, but full marks of respect to Richie McCaw and the All Blacks for not making a big deal out of it. They just seemed relieved to win the RWC.
4. We can sit here all day long and analyse every single ruck and maul and point out illegal incidents committed by both teams. I felt that Joubert was lenient to both teams and allowed the game to flow. In the first half it seemed that France got the rub of the green, while in the second half NZ were lucky. He missed a number of forward passes and knock ons in the first half by both teams. Seems fair and balanced to me and things evened out until Rougerie's eye gouging video footage was shown last night on Reunion. Definitely worthy of a red card if the officials caught him in the act. It seems that there are a few sore losers out there: South Africa, Australia, Wales and now Franc
Bob October 26, 2011 1:19 am
Thank you for that unbiased Kiwi perspective. I'll summarise his unbiased opinions for anyone who doesn't want to wade through the drivel.
1. France didn't deserve to win... because they didn't (genius, no?)
2. The kick went over
3. Richie is innocent
4. Rougerie is guilty
5. The reffing was spot on, no quarms there.
Thank you again for that unbiased Kiwi perspective. Pfft.
1. France didn't deserve to win... because they didn't (genius, no?)
2. The kick went over
3. Richie is innocent
4. Rougerie is guilty
5. The reffing was spot on, no quarms there.
Thank you again for that unbiased Kiwi perspective. Pfft.
Bob October 26, 2011 1:22 am
Crap - I didn't even realise there was a part 2. I'll have to read that later. No doubt it'll be informative and unbiased as well.
tarutso October 26, 2011 2:57 am
Your summation couldn't be less inaccurate lol.
JB October 26, 2011 8:21 pm
You're most welcome Bobdobalina. But in all seriousness I would appreciate a serious and meaningful reply, not just a kiddy-like "Pffft". Grow a pair and bring some intelligent reponses to the table, I'm a man I can handle a debate. In fact I challenge anybody out there to discuss why France didn't deserve to win (NZ had better defence), how Richie's knee can be seen as malicious rather than careless, how Rougerie is not guilty, or if the refereeing was biased. Bring it on ladies!
JB October 25, 2011 10:58 pm
Part two of my comment:
5. I am Maori and personally I loved France's response to the haka! That is exactly what we needed! We love a challenge, and France brought their A-game right from the get-go. I could tell something brilliant was about to happen when France formed their V, and it set the tone for the match. Unfortunately for France they broke the rule, as stupid as it may be, and must face the punishment. If the All Blacks broke the rule by advancing beyond their allowed zone, they should be punished too. The rules are just as ridiculous as those mouthguard fines. The IRB are a bunch of sticklers, aren't they?
6. The NZ press is ridiculous. I am very ashamed and embarrassed by their buildup towards the final. Many journalists down here don't deserve to be published because of their biased articles. I think most serious rugby fans in the NZ public knew that the French team were going to be very tough to beat in the final. Anybody who didn't think so is a bloody idiot, simple as that! France deserved respect before and after the match, it's a shame that hasn't happened in some small sections of the NZ media that unfortunately got most of the spotlight (most likely just to attract more attention and sell more papers). The NZ media does not represent the rugby community as a whole, and just like Rougerie, a few bad apples shouldn't spoil it for the rest of the bunch.
7. I am disappointed that McCaw and Henry did not acknowledge the French team during their post-match interviews. This is embarrassing and in bad taste - we have to be gentlemen off the field no matter what happens on it. I have yet to see the post-match press conferences, but it would be interesting to see if they mentioned France there. If it's any consolation, the crowd did give France a very healthy round of applause after the game, and the All Blacks clapped France off the field before they went to their changing rooms. A little humility goes a long way.
5. I am Maori and personally I loved France's response to the haka! That is exactly what we needed! We love a challenge, and France brought their A-game right from the get-go. I could tell something brilliant was about to happen when France formed their V, and it set the tone for the match. Unfortunately for France they broke the rule, as stupid as it may be, and must face the punishment. If the All Blacks broke the rule by advancing beyond their allowed zone, they should be punished too. The rules are just as ridiculous as those mouthguard fines. The IRB are a bunch of sticklers, aren't they?
6. The NZ press is ridiculous. I am very ashamed and embarrassed by their buildup towards the final. Many journalists down here don't deserve to be published because of their biased articles. I think most serious rugby fans in the NZ public knew that the French team were going to be very tough to beat in the final. Anybody who didn't think so is a bloody idiot, simple as that! France deserved respect before and after the match, it's a shame that hasn't happened in some small sections of the NZ media that unfortunately got most of the spotlight (most likely just to attract more attention and sell more papers). The NZ media does not represent the rugby community as a whole, and just like Rougerie, a few bad apples shouldn't spoil it for the rest of the bunch.
7. I am disappointed that McCaw and Henry did not acknowledge the French team during their post-match interviews. This is embarrassing and in bad taste - we have to be gentlemen off the field no matter what happens on it. I have yet to see the post-match press conferences, but it would be interesting to see if they mentioned France there. If it's any consolation, the crowd did give France a very healthy round of applause after the game, and the All Blacks clapped France off the field before they went to their changing rooms. A little humility goes a long way.
murph October 25, 2011 11:00 pm
Kick was in.
McCaw was probably negligent but no less guilty of recklessness than, say, Warburton. Yet Queen Ruchie doesn't even get a reprimand.
Rougerie needs to watch himself and probably lucky not to have been cited.
Joubert's refereeing of the breakdown, in particular, was appallingly one-sided. He reffed Pocock out of the SF while ignoring Queen Ruckie's blatant indiscretions. Re: the 50/50 calls, Lawrence Dallaglio made the exact same point several times while calling the game for ITV UK.
The haka fine is a joke. It seems that post-colonial guilt complex is well and truly entrenched at the IRB.
Rugby dump is impartial.
A couple of other points:
Quade Cooper has an air of arrogance, yes, but the treatment dished out by the Kiwi media and the droves of Kiwi drone bogans was absolutely disgraceful. The fact that it culminated in cheers and hisses when QC busted his knee was both appalling and unsurprising given the level of hate being whipped up.
Richie McCaw's and Graham Henry's victory speeches both failed to mention the French or any other team in the tournament. It smacked of a total lack of grace and complete arrogance. The decision by the ABs to perform a haka while Desutoir was being interviewed was the cherry on the icing on the cake of self-absorption.
I will never support the All Blacks in any game, ever again and that includes ones involving...urgh...England. They and their fans are arrogant, ungracious winners and even sorer losers.
McCaw was probably negligent but no less guilty of recklessness than, say, Warburton. Yet Queen Ruchie doesn't even get a reprimand.
Rougerie needs to watch himself and probably lucky not to have been cited.
Joubert's refereeing of the breakdown, in particular, was appallingly one-sided. He reffed Pocock out of the SF while ignoring Queen Ruckie's blatant indiscretions. Re: the 50/50 calls, Lawrence Dallaglio made the exact same point several times while calling the game for ITV UK.
The haka fine is a joke. It seems that post-colonial guilt complex is well and truly entrenched at the IRB.
Rugby dump is impartial.
A couple of other points:
Quade Cooper has an air of arrogance, yes, but the treatment dished out by the Kiwi media and the droves of Kiwi drone bogans was absolutely disgraceful. The fact that it culminated in cheers and hisses when QC busted his knee was both appalling and unsurprising given the level of hate being whipped up.
Richie McCaw's and Graham Henry's victory speeches both failed to mention the French or any other team in the tournament. It smacked of a total lack of grace and complete arrogance. The decision by the ABs to perform a haka while Desutoir was being interviewed was the cherry on the icing on the cake of self-absorption.
I will never support the All Blacks in any game, ever again and that includes ones involving...urgh...England. They and their fans are arrogant, ungracious winners and even sorer losers.
BarryT October 25, 2011 11:39 pm
Did they actually do the haka while Dusatoir was being interviewed?? request that video cause thats appallingly bad stuff!
murph October 26, 2011 12:40 am
Watch from about 2:10:00 onwards... http://www.itv.com/itvplayer/video/?Filter=283295
Half way through the interview the crowd arcs up and Desautoir is drowned out.
At about 2:11:00 onward, Steve Rider notes Desautoir's dignified manner in contrast to the massive circle jerk going on in the background.
I don't know if you can access ITV player, it might now be available to people outside the UK
Half way through the interview the crowd arcs up and Desautoir is drowned out.
At about 2:11:00 onward, Steve Rider notes Desautoir's dignified manner in contrast to the massive circle jerk going on in the background.
I don't know if you can access ITV player, it might now be available to people outside the UK
tarutso October 26, 2011 12:38 am
Why would the All Blacks do the haka again after the game? Plz post video.
JB October 26, 2011 8:25 pm
To celebrate and thank the crowd for their support. It's tradition.
BuzzKillington October 26, 2011 8:18 am
It's nothing to do with post-colonial anything. The NZRU have a ridiculous sway on the IRB. How do you think NZ got to host the World Cup in the first place? It was obvious before and is more obvious now that they didn't merit hosting a World Cup. New Zealand are bribery merchants and buy whatever decision they like through bribery.
I sometimes wonder if the IRB are trying to destroy Rugby. As with big hits, fights and running rugby, if you now want to see a decent haka you'll have to watch Rugby League. Everything that's good about Rugby the IRB seem to want to do away with.
I agree too with your assessment of Kiwis. I think everyone who starts watching Rugby turns to the All Blacks for good rugby, unfortunately with time the reverse happens, people realise that Kiwis are just dicks and New Zealand as a country and people suck, and slowly withdraw their support from one of the greatest sporting teams in the world.
The NZRU, the IRB and most New Zealanders are just halfwits.
I sometimes wonder if the IRB are trying to destroy Rugby. As with big hits, fights and running rugby, if you now want to see a decent haka you'll have to watch Rugby League. Everything that's good about Rugby the IRB seem to want to do away with.
I agree too with your assessment of Kiwis. I think everyone who starts watching Rugby turns to the All Blacks for good rugby, unfortunately with time the reverse happens, people realise that Kiwis are just dicks and New Zealand as a country and people suck, and slowly withdraw their support from one of the greatest sporting teams in the world.
The NZRU, the IRB and most New Zealanders are just halfwits.
rbbxz October 26, 2011 11:09 pm
Cooper actually received a lot of applause when he left the field. There were some who still boo-ed, but they have been quickly labelled idiots in NZ. He didn't get it that bad - you need to remember, he effectively said "bring it on... I love being public enemy no.1 ... it makes me stronger.. rah rah rah" . Cooper will become extremely popular in NZ - just wait a few years. It will be a "love to hate" thing that happens in sport all over the world and Australia gives just as much to NZ sports people.
Neither captain mentioned either team right after the game, but certainly did during the press conference afterwards.
Doing the haka during one of many, many post match interviews by dozens of international broadcasters can be forgiven. That's the reality of live tv and holding interview on the pitch during a victory lap of a world cup final - it's not like they surrounded him and did it.
Neither captain mentioned either team right after the game, but certainly did during the press conference afterwards.
Doing the haka during one of many, many post match interviews by dozens of international broadcasters can be forgiven. That's the reality of live tv and holding interview on the pitch during a victory lap of a world cup final - it's not like they surrounded him and did it.
Gregor October 26, 2011 1:14 pm
You're an idiot. How can the NZRU bribe the IRB when they cant even afford to keep their own players in NZ. The super rugby squads for next year had to be cut down to save costs and the NZRU could barely bail some of the provincial clubs out of going bankrupt.
I agree about the IRB destroying rugby with their stupid rules and money over everything approach, but bribery is ridiculous just like your dumb comment.
I agree about the IRB destroying rugby with their stupid rules and money over everything approach, but bribery is ridiculous just like your dumb comment.
joeythelemur October 26, 2011 5:09 pm
"Kiwis are just dicks and New Zealand as a country and people suck...New Zealanders are just halfwits."
Sounds like someone got turned away from the Hobbit tour.
Sounds like someone got turned away from the Hobbit tour.
breakaway October 27, 2011 5:42 am
"It was obvious before and is more obvious now that they didn't merit hosting a World Cup."
Rubbish .. this is exactly the opposite of what I have heard and read from people who actually went there, including members of the UK press who have praised the organisation, the game atmosphere, the hospitality and the fans. The rugby was also generally better than the endless punt-and-chase of 2007 and the refereeing was no better and no worse. There will always be arguments and controversy wherever a tournament like this is played but the consensus among those who actually went to NZ disagrees with you.
One of the most ridiculous ideas that keeps popping up and is never actually explained, is that the IRB are constantly trying to favour NZ. Why they would taint their whole process to help NZ win is a complete mystery. The All Blacks were a dominant team for decades before the modern IRB existed and when rugby admin was dominated by the "Home" Unions who had double the voting power of SH unions until the late-50s.
Currently, of the 20 representatives on the IRB executive from the major unions, NZ have two (as do Eng, Ire, Scot, Wales, Fran, Oz, SA) and Arg, Jap, Can, Italy have one each. That's 13 NH reps and 7 SH reps. The Chairman of the IRB is French! Why the hell would the IRB corrupt and jeopardize a multimillion dollar organisation built up over decades to help yet another SH team win the RWC? Apart from 03 the SH has been handing the cup around amongst themselves and I have no doubt that the IRB would absolutely love to have another NH winner. If they are so good at manipulating a win for any team they want (which is what some geniuses are suggesting) I am sure there would be at least two or three more NH champs in the books. And anyone who thinks the unions and IRB reps from SA and Aus (let alone the NH) are keen for NZ to win World Cups are seriously deluded.. seriously.
Rubbish .. this is exactly the opposite of what I have heard and read from people who actually went there, including members of the UK press who have praised the organisation, the game atmosphere, the hospitality and the fans. The rugby was also generally better than the endless punt-and-chase of 2007 and the refereeing was no better and no worse. There will always be arguments and controversy wherever a tournament like this is played but the consensus among those who actually went to NZ disagrees with you.
One of the most ridiculous ideas that keeps popping up and is never actually explained, is that the IRB are constantly trying to favour NZ. Why they would taint their whole process to help NZ win is a complete mystery. The All Blacks were a dominant team for decades before the modern IRB existed and when rugby admin was dominated by the "Home" Unions who had double the voting power of SH unions until the late-50s.
Currently, of the 20 representatives on the IRB executive from the major unions, NZ have two (as do Eng, Ire, Scot, Wales, Fran, Oz, SA) and Arg, Jap, Can, Italy have one each. That's 13 NH reps and 7 SH reps. The Chairman of the IRB is French! Why the hell would the IRB corrupt and jeopardize a multimillion dollar organisation built up over decades to help yet another SH team win the RWC? Apart from 03 the SH has been handing the cup around amongst themselves and I have no doubt that the IRB would absolutely love to have another NH winner. If they are so good at manipulating a win for any team they want (which is what some geniuses are suggesting) I am sure there would be at least two or three more NH champs in the books. And anyone who thinks the unions and IRB reps from SA and Aus (let alone the NH) are keen for NZ to win World Cups are seriously deluded.. seriously.
breakaway October 27, 2011 5:45 am
.. glitch .. my post above is in reply to Buzz at 8:18 am.
Gregor October 27, 2011 5:52 am
Well said breakaway! Some of the accusations going around are bloody stupid! Jealousy i think...
breakaway October 28, 2011 3:06 am
Thanks for the link oslo, I hadn't even read that article, and so regarding the overall quality of the tournament in the eyes of people who experienced it first-hand, I rest my case.
Just for the record, at the time I was hoping Japan would get the tournament too .. and I think 2019 in that country will be superb.
As far as the other points he makes I think the most crucial one is, to use the writer's own words: "but then again perhaps all this depends on your nationality. Referees are easy to blame." His take on most of the incidents in the final that he mentions (like the video that's going round) could be contested point for point and a different selection of moments could prove exactly the opposite.
Just for the record, at the time I was hoping Japan would get the tournament too .. and I think 2019 in that country will be superb.
As far as the other points he makes I think the most crucial one is, to use the writer's own words: "but then again perhaps all this depends on your nationality. Referees are easy to blame." His take on most of the incidents in the final that he mentions (like the video that's going round) could be contested point for point and a different selection of moments could prove exactly the opposite.
Marius October 25, 2011 11:19 pm
no comment, mais c'est bine d'avoir vu la même chose. Ce qui est nul dans cette histoire c'est que même si la France ne méritait pas d'être en finale, forcé est de voir qu'elle s'est volée. Que la nz, bien que la meilleur équipe du monde, surement la plus méritante à un titre galvaudé, parce qu'effectivement elle a été largement avantagée. Que la coupe du monde est vraiment pas belle, pour le calendrier infâme imposé aux petites équipes, capable lorsqu'elle bénéficie de 7 jours de pouvoir rivaliser avec les équipes "majeures" tonga france, ou afs samoan; l'arbitrage partial des samoans contre l afs, puis de l'afs contre l'Australie. Enfin des sanctions disproportionnées par rapport aux gestes ainsi que leurs sanctions pour les joueurs et les équipes... les Gallois peuvent en parler. 4 ans qu'on attendait ça pour finalement avoir une coupe du monde pourrie.
BarryT October 25, 2011 11:35 pm
I've been following RD since the beginning, and in no way has this site ever been biased to a particular team or nation. They've been providing us with great videos and footage, that we've all loved (or hated if it was against our own team haha) all from a neutral perspective. Generally they try to start a spirited mature debate about the topic, and its we that posts the biased comments, as we would! I really can't stress enough that this is a great service RD provides and we should all be greatful
My opinions of the videos:
Donalds kick initially did look like it missed, but the crowds and the linesmen were certain of it straight away, so i trusted their decision, camara's can give skewed images sometimes too!
I thought Joubert did give the all blacks alot of the 50/50 calls, mostly around the breakdown, to me, it appeared that he let the all blacks hold onto the ball when a french player got hands on after a tackle was made, this changed however in the second half.
Thanks RD for the vid's and keep them coming!
My opinions of the videos:
Donalds kick initially did look like it missed, but the crowds and the linesmen were certain of it straight away, so i trusted their decision, camara's can give skewed images sometimes too!
I thought Joubert did give the all blacks alot of the 50/50 calls, mostly around the breakdown, to me, it appeared that he let the all blacks hold onto the ball when a french player got hands on after a tackle was made, this changed however in the second half.
Thanks RD for the vid's and keep them coming!
Rob October 25, 2011 11:39 pm
Lesson for kids out there, ROLL away immediately. Be conscious of where you fall in the tackle and certainly don't lift your head up while rolling away.
I'm not buying this "better" team lost call any more either. The French may have had the majority of possession, but didn't really do anything with it as the All Black defence was absolutely massive!
I'm not buying this "better" team lost call any more either. The French may have had the majority of possession, but didn't really do anything with it as the All Black defence was absolutely massive!
cheyanqui October 25, 2011 11:58 pm
So question to the classroom, should we simply bring back some productive rucking, to get hands and dead fish off the ball?
Or are we too far gone to ever bring that back?
What really gets me is how some teams (not just Kiwis) will stack dead bodies around the ball, and the defender is long gone. The referee prohibits the defense from hitting them because they offensive player is off their feet, yet the player makes no attempt to get back up and make himself an honest opponent.
With all these piles of dead wood blocking the ball at rucks, we're inching closer to rugby league and then gridiron.
IRB -- PLEASE bring back the contested ruck! {NFW I bet}
Or are we too far gone to ever bring that back?
What really gets me is how some teams (not just Kiwis) will stack dead bodies around the ball, and the defender is long gone. The referee prohibits the defense from hitting them because they offensive player is off their feet, yet the player makes no attempt to get back up and make himself an honest opponent.
With all these piles of dead wood blocking the ball at rucks, we're inching closer to rugby league and then gridiron.
IRB -- PLEASE bring back the contested ruck! {NFW I bet}
Andrew Bates October 26, 2011 12:25 pm
Absolutely! To borrow a phrase, Bring Back Ruck[ing].
I fear it was banned because some marketing oiks said if you want to make the game appeal to more people and boost ratings and TV revenues then to make the game appeal to women you need to get rid of the horrific stuff like rucking on the body. (We all used to know that you never ruck the groin or above the shoulders, that it was unmanly to do so.)
Since referees can't see everything and they can no longer be rucked off, defenders know they now face less of a cost from falling the wrong way and lying on the ball or on the oppo's side of it. Consequently we get slower ball for attacking backs and less chance for them to attack an unprepared defensive line. Hence fewer line breaks and tries and a more boring game to watch (and play). Hence the means (more money for rugby expansion) have been put before the ends (expansion of actual rugby) and the ends (actual rugby) have been corrupted and made worse. It's completely counter-productive.
Our Takapuna U19s coach would check our torsos after each game and if anyone had ruck marks he would make us all do a long gut-busting fitness session the next Tuesday. The result, we ran like hell to each break down and made sure our mates never got isolated. We retained possession and got our backs quick ball and they scored by far the most tries in the league that year.
BTW Oslo - what happened to BO'D ought to be condemned. Why can't you appreciate great players from the opposition?! I am in awe of Du Sautoir from Sunday (check his stats, on screen briefly before McCaw's were) and became a new fan of Pocock and Warburton during the tournament having already been an admirer of George North, Kurtley Beale, James O'Connor, Quade Cooper (who Kiwis stopped booing) and Matt Giteau (to name a few) before it.
I am no longer a Rougerie fan mind you.
I fear it was banned because some marketing oiks said if you want to make the game appeal to more people and boost ratings and TV revenues then to make the game appeal to women you need to get rid of the horrific stuff like rucking on the body. (We all used to know that you never ruck the groin or above the shoulders, that it was unmanly to do so.)
Since referees can't see everything and they can no longer be rucked off, defenders know they now face less of a cost from falling the wrong way and lying on the ball or on the oppo's side of it. Consequently we get slower ball for attacking backs and less chance for them to attack an unprepared defensive line. Hence fewer line breaks and tries and a more boring game to watch (and play). Hence the means (more money for rugby expansion) have been put before the ends (expansion of actual rugby) and the ends (actual rugby) have been corrupted and made worse. It's completely counter-productive.
Our Takapuna U19s coach would check our torsos after each game and if anyone had ruck marks he would make us all do a long gut-busting fitness session the next Tuesday. The result, we ran like hell to each break down and made sure our mates never got isolated. We retained possession and got our backs quick ball and they scored by far the most tries in the league that year.
BTW Oslo - what happened to BO'D ought to be condemned. Why can't you appreciate great players from the opposition?! I am in awe of Du Sautoir from Sunday (check his stats, on screen briefly before McCaw's were) and became a new fan of Pocock and Warburton during the tournament having already been an admirer of George North, Kurtley Beale, James O'Connor, Quade Cooper (who Kiwis stopped booing) and Matt Giteau (to name a few) before it.
I am no longer a Rougerie fan mind you.
oslosinclair October 27, 2011 3:55 pm
Andrew....the spear should be condemned you're right. So can you condemn the two players who speared Bod?
tarutso October 26, 2011 12:35 am
Just watched Irish television analysis. Just a few points as to what they're pointing out:
Read vs Parra offside at 0:26 of video:
Read went forward because Yachvilli engaged the ball which they admit is correct. Read did not interfere with play or move towards the ball. Whereas Parra was offside already regardless of his move forward. His move forward only made him even more offside. Look at the field lines and you can see Parra at least 1 metre ahead of teammates. Also, Parra was penalised because he was in a position that interfered with the play and moved forwards, towards the ball (Rule 11.1(a) and (b)) which forced Read to have to pass earlier.
0:59: How was McCaw playing the ball? His hands were up.
1:00: Kaino had ball while on feet. Got off feet and ball was out. Hore dived in because ball was out of ruck. Hore was clearly not offside. France simply did not dive for the ball when out in open. At 1:27 commentators say Kaino was off his feet and throwing ball forward -- what??
The only thing that I find to have any merit would have been the attempted high tackle by Woodcock.
Read vs Parra offside at 0:26 of video:
Read went forward because Yachvilli engaged the ball which they admit is correct. Read did not interfere with play or move towards the ball. Whereas Parra was offside already regardless of his move forward. His move forward only made him even more offside. Look at the field lines and you can see Parra at least 1 metre ahead of teammates. Also, Parra was penalised because he was in a position that interfered with the play and moved forwards, towards the ball (Rule 11.1(a) and (b)) which forced Read to have to pass earlier.
0:59: How was McCaw playing the ball? His hands were up.
1:00: Kaino had ball while on feet. Got off feet and ball was out. Hore dived in because ball was out of ruck. Hore was clearly not offside. France simply did not dive for the ball when out in open. At 1:27 commentators say Kaino was off his feet and throwing ball forward -- what??
The only thing that I find to have any merit would have been the attempted high tackle by Woodcock.
bib160 October 26, 2011 2:50 am
Parra starts from an on side position, Weppu makes a move with his shoulders (dumying is illegal but thats not the point ) so Parra moves forward, he is told not to do so by the ref and take a few steps back and doesn't start interfering with the game until he is on side and is penalized anyways... If you ever had to defend in that position you should now that defending while going backward is way more difficult
MCCaw doesn't play the ball but is clearly not rolling away and slowing down the french play
Kaino joined the ruck legally, then one of his knee is in contact with the ground or one player then, while it is still a ruck, he gets back to his feet (first penalty) to play the ball (second penalty), loose his feet again (third one...) and realease the ball forward (if not deliberalty it is at least a knock on)
Read has at least one foot in front of MacCaw's foot (who is the last man in the ruck)
0:32 mealamu his joining the ruck from the side
0:45 same for read
0:52 McCaw is falling purposefully on the french side and does not roll away, exact same call at 0:58 (yachvili is pointing at it)
i rewatch the game a few times and i could go on and on with example of bad decisions.
MCCaw doesn't play the ball but is clearly not rolling away and slowing down the french play
Kaino joined the ruck legally, then one of his knee is in contact with the ground or one player then, while it is still a ruck, he gets back to his feet (first penalty) to play the ball (second penalty), loose his feet again (third one...) and realease the ball forward (if not deliberalty it is at least a knock on)
Read has at least one foot in front of MacCaw's foot (who is the last man in the ruck)
0:32 mealamu his joining the ruck from the side
0:45 same for read
0:52 McCaw is falling purposefully on the french side and does not roll away, exact same call at 0:58 (yachvili is pointing at it)
i rewatch the game a few times and i could go on and on with example of bad decisions.
tarutso October 26, 2011 3:39 am
Pause at 0:33. Parra already offside prior to movement forward. He moved forward, more offside where ref told him to back off. He then returned to still yet an offside position. Just look at where he is standing relative to where Dusautoir's hind feet are at.
McCaw cannot roll away if the length of his arm is piled on with other players.
0:32 Mealamu did not blatantly join ruck from side -- used full arm and body was bound with teammates and opposition who were in ruck.
My point is the Australian commentator is just calling out penalties left and right where in fact they were not penalties. Parra was actually offside and interferred with play - what's the problem? McCaw didn't play the ball off his feet. Hore was not offside!
McCaw cannot roll away if the length of his arm is piled on with other players.
0:32 Mealamu did not blatantly join ruck from side -- used full arm and body was bound with teammates and opposition who were in ruck.
My point is the Australian commentator is just calling out penalties left and right where in fact they were not penalties. Parra was actually offside and interferred with play - what's the problem? McCaw didn't play the ball off his feet. Hore was not offside!
Ian M October 26, 2011 1:06 am
The knee by McCaw was bad luck, nothing more. He actually showed perfect rucking technique there - all aspiring players should watch that slowmo for how the pros do it. Anyway, what sort of idiot puts their hand between their knee and whatever they're trying to hurt?
As for the headbutt/gouge, it's disgusting. I was gouged for the first time the other week and it's cowardly and doesn't belong on the pitch. Unlike several other recent incidents, there was no need for Rougerie to have his hand anywhere near McCaw's head. That sort of thing deserves a couple of month's ban
As for the headbutt/gouge, it's disgusting. I was gouged for the first time the other week and it's cowardly and doesn't belong on the pitch. Unlike several other recent incidents, there was no need for Rougerie to have his hand anywhere near McCaw's head. That sort of thing deserves a couple of month's ban
KaKo October 26, 2011 1:14 am
Just read... http://www.rugbydump.com/2007/10/239/france-beat-the-all-blacks-jauzion-try
Rugbydump 4LIFE! just keep doing what you do Man!!
Rugbydump 4LIFE! just keep doing what you do Man!!
APEV October 26, 2011 3:11 am
the whole kneeing business surprises me. I am in no an all blacks fan, nor am i a french supporter. But, while initially watching the game, and I'm not sure when, but Dusautoir, clearly stomps (which is not a huge deal, as many players do to get clean ball) but then immediatley knee drops a new zealander (I think it was McCaw). Did anyone else see this? I don't know if anyone else noticed (nor do i wanna read all 70 comments to find out)
menial October 26, 2011 5:39 am
Yes, this was at the same ruck as the alleged/obvious eye gouging incident.
Mark October 26, 2011 3:38 am
Why do the French care what NZ press has to say? New Zealanders couldn't give a flying fuck about what the French papers say.
cheyanqui October 26, 2011 3:50 am
Most Kiwis probably couldn't read a French newspaper.
bib160 October 26, 2011 1:04 pm
Because when the kiwi press insults a french player it also insults me.
Reuben October 26, 2011 5:09 am
Southern hemisphere teams cheat. GET OVER IT, maybe thats why the southern hemisphere teams have won 6 out of 7 world cups. As for the knee, well it was a accident. The All Blacks are not complaining about the eye gouge so who cares.
The referee was favouring the All Blacks, thats why there is something called home advantage. There always has been and always will be. As for this fine for the Haka challange, as a Kiwi it is a disgrace to see a team fined for responding to the Haka. I think every team should challange the Haka, thats what its about.
The referee was favouring the All Blacks, thats why there is something called home advantage. There always has been and always will be. As for this fine for the Haka challange, as a Kiwi it is a disgrace to see a team fined for responding to the Haka. I think every team should challange the Haka, thats what its about.
tarutso October 26, 2011 7:36 am
As some people have already noted again and again -- challenging the haka is not the issue at all, heck, it should be promoted! The issue is infringing the rules!!!
GPH October 26, 2011 6:22 am
Oh crap, I'm french supporter but:
1. Donald penalty kick is in (I wanted him to miss but it's in :()
2. It's too easy to say McCaw knocked out Parra intentionaly. To me it looks like Parra was at the wrong place at the wrong time ...
3. The ref was bad. I mean rucks (from both side) weren't clean at all. However I feel like few penalties for France were deserved especially the one with Kaino ... but the ref is human he can have a bad day!
4. I think everyone is laughting at the "haka fine"
5. I'm surprised by Rougerie's gesture, it really doesn't look good on the video. :(
6. Rugbydump is a really classy website of rugby, it never seemed biased to me.
1. Donald penalty kick is in (I wanted him to miss but it's in :()
2. It's too easy to say McCaw knocked out Parra intentionaly. To me it looks like Parra was at the wrong place at the wrong time ...
3. The ref was bad. I mean rucks (from both side) weren't clean at all. However I feel like few penalties for France were deserved especially the one with Kaino ... but the ref is human he can have a bad day!
4. I think everyone is laughting at the "haka fine"
5. I'm surprised by Rougerie's gesture, it really doesn't look good on the video. :(
6. Rugbydump is a really classy website of rugby, it never seemed biased to me.
Gaetan October 26, 2011 7:34 am
So the nz media should be enough adult to be able to stop their harassement to french players. You won the world, what do you want more??? Let them go!!! Or maybe that's way to hide all the discussions about your captain
fittler October 29, 2011 10:25 pm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/oct/16/rugby-world-cup-france-lievremont
Spoiled brats - as labelled by their own coach. The NZ media was spot on
Spoiled brats - as labelled by their own coach. The NZ media was spot on
Gaetan October 31, 2011 5:50 am
You should learn french buddy. French media didn't give the same story... lost in translation
Gaetan October 31, 2011 5:54 am
French media could say the same for the kiwis: http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/breves2011/20111009_062325_jane-fait-polemique.html
Peter October 26, 2011 8:27 am
Everyone has their own opinion of the game.......BUT France gave the ABs a HELL of a FRIGHT.....It was FRIGHT NIGHT FOR THE AB's. The FRENCH were defintely the BETTER TEAM in the RWC Finals. The ref made some BAD calls.....Oh and don't forget to have a CLOSER look at the AB's try...and ask yourself if the THROW-IN was Straight?????? Was it????? Viva La FRANCE!!!!!!!!!!!
Sangris October 26, 2011 8:32 am
It's not Richie Maccaw knee. It's with his hand. It's a punch.
Andrew Bates October 26, 2011 12:47 pm
It's not a punch. Du Sautoir is his focus and he intends to flip him off Nonu. That's why his right arm is up and his left hand is down.
TCCalvin October 26, 2011 9:23 am
How is rugby ever going to grow when the refs, players and most of the fans don't even know what the rules are? Newbies wont have a fucking clue.
All this RWC has shown is what a mess Union is in.
All this RWC has shown is what a mess Union is in.
Colombes October 26, 2011 9:49 am
firstly, congrats to rugbydump for its objectivity. as french, i think the last days chats have been very lively between 2 passionate rugby sides who lacked, them, of objectivity ;) there has never been tension between french and nz fans, so it's unnecessary to create some. back to the controversies:
1- the s.donald kick have always been "in". i don't know how this rumour grew up. the camera angle was tricky, as it was on a yachvili penalty
2- concerning the richie mc caw knee on parra, it's not a knee but a fist. i don't think it was really intentional. At full speed, it's difficult to aim a precise part of the face, but u can maybe question the "fist" position of mc caw hand. only him has the answer.
ps: parra has a broken nose and suspected orbital fracture...
3- rougerie reaction is idiot, coward and maybe sneaky. whatever it was the 54th time that mc caw was offside, off his feet or playing the ball in the ground, don't put your fingers on the face, nose, eye of your opponent!!! for me, it appears like a rake. so stupid and unnecessary from him, as frenchs have already a reputation of filthy players and it will give reason to some stupid tabloids. i think the nz staff didn't claim it because of incidents concerning nz players (woodcock high tackle, weepu suspected punch on mermoz)
4- Joubert biased? he was just under high pressure and gave all the 50/50 decisions to all blacks. i wish that nz fans will now stop to cry about wayne barnes ;)
5- the haka fine? i think everyone is ok. ridicule!
A last word on french fans. most of them aren't bitter because of the defeat, they are rather proud of les bleus redemption, but have been clearly hurt by nz newspapers comments on french players and France in general. i understand the chauvinism (as frenchies are champions of it ;)) but it doesn't mean disrespect or insult a country and professional players...
so again, congrats to all blacks
can't wait for the next france-nz chapter in the 2015 rwc;)
1- the s.donald kick have always been "in". i don't know how this rumour grew up. the camera angle was tricky, as it was on a yachvili penalty
2- concerning the richie mc caw knee on parra, it's not a knee but a fist. i don't think it was really intentional. At full speed, it's difficult to aim a precise part of the face, but u can maybe question the "fist" position of mc caw hand. only him has the answer.
ps: parra has a broken nose and suspected orbital fracture...
3- rougerie reaction is idiot, coward and maybe sneaky. whatever it was the 54th time that mc caw was offside, off his feet or playing the ball in the ground, don't put your fingers on the face, nose, eye of your opponent!!! for me, it appears like a rake. so stupid and unnecessary from him, as frenchs have already a reputation of filthy players and it will give reason to some stupid tabloids. i think the nz staff didn't claim it because of incidents concerning nz players (woodcock high tackle, weepu suspected punch on mermoz)
4- Joubert biased? he was just under high pressure and gave all the 50/50 decisions to all blacks. i wish that nz fans will now stop to cry about wayne barnes ;)
5- the haka fine? i think everyone is ok. ridicule!
A last word on french fans. most of them aren't bitter because of the defeat, they are rather proud of les bleus redemption, but have been clearly hurt by nz newspapers comments on french players and France in general. i understand the chauvinism (as frenchies are champions of it ;)) but it doesn't mean disrespect or insult a country and professional players...
so again, congrats to all blacks
can't wait for the next france-nz chapter in the 2015 rwc;)
Yorffeo October 26, 2011 10:50 am
Congrats Colombes
I was gutted for the french because of most of the ref calls in the last 20 minutes...but let's get over it.
You have to win it in 2015 :-)
A lot of people were disapointed by NZ media but also NZ public booing Cooper even when he went out of the field injured (really really shamefull)
I hope one day my country team will be able to compete in the final :-)
I was gutted for the french because of most of the ref calls in the last 20 minutes...but let's get over it.
You have to win it in 2015 :-)
A lot of people were disapointed by NZ media but also NZ public booing Cooper even when he went out of the field injured (really really shamefull)
I hope one day my country team will be able to compete in the final :-)
Tim October 26, 2011 11:27 am
How come I have only read articles saying that he was given applause when he left the field?
Gregor October 26, 2011 12:56 pm
Cooper wasnt booed off the field at all. The crowd clapped him off once they realised the injury was serious.
joeythelemur October 26, 2011 5:17 pm
Yeah, one or two drunken idiots booing doesn't mean people were happy to see Cooper hurt. The Kiwis probably took Cooper's abuse a bit too far, but he was plenty willing to accept the role of Public Enemy. Kiwis know he's a hell of a player and gave him a respectful applause when he was taken off.
JB October 26, 2011 8:38 pm
Wayne who? LOL. I gotta say it is pretty funny to see some fans responses now that their respective country has felt the wrath of the referees, especially after what's happened at past world cups. It's all fish n chips paper now!
IrishBob October 26, 2011 10:33 am
Rugby must be in a pretty bad shape when everyone ends up talking about the referee after games. The breakdown needs to be sorted out and refereed fairly or this will continue to blight the game. If you were to use this game to explain the breakdown to a novice you'd give up after 5 minutes.
I enjoyed the final immensly but i was shouting at the ref for the whole bloody thing.
I enjoyed the final immensly but i was shouting at the ref for the whole bloody thing.
Hayden October 26, 2011 10:47 am
So Rougerie raking Mccaws face, and potentially harming his sight is justified? Would it be justification for anyone to have their sight damaged because a player(s) thinks its the right thing to do? What if it was Pocock, Dussatoir, or moody? They all do it.
Disgusting comment.
You can see his fingure catch on the outer part of his eye socket (skin) you can't say thats not an attmept..
Disgusting comment.
You can see his fingure catch on the outer part of his eye socket (skin) you can't say thats not an attmept..
Hayden October 26, 2011 10:51 am
Someone hit Read just before the base of the ruck and he was not even involved, he was down for a fair bit...
I think Parra is unlucky, McCaw hit Dussatoir pretty hard... Stupid backs for getting involved in the grind... all these storys are because of the backs being rubbish around the ruck haha :P
I think Parra is unlucky, McCaw hit Dussatoir pretty hard... Stupid backs for getting involved in the grind... all these storys are because of the backs being rubbish around the ruck haha :P
katman October 26, 2011 11:02 am
Let’s face it, Joubert’s refereeing was very “respectful” of his gracious hosts for most of the game. But it was nothing compared to the Bryce Lawrence fix-up in the quarter finals. That deserves its own commission of inquiry.
murph October 26, 2011 11:23 am
What part did didn't you like about Bryce's reffing? The bit where JP Pieterson puts JOC off his kick by charging early and Lawrence ignoring it? The bit where Bismark charges down QC's drop out, crosses the 22 as part of the charge down and Lawrence fails to ping him for being offside? The part where Burger repeatedly rakes Pococks face and nothing is done? The bit where South African players repeatedly went off their feet and nothing was done?
Lawrence was poor but he missed crucial calls for both sides.
SA have lost to Australia 6 of the last 7 times mate. If you can't win with 70% possession then that isn't the ref's fault.
Lawrence was poor but he missed crucial calls for both sides.
SA have lost to Australia 6 of the last 7 times mate. If you can't win with 70% possession then that isn't the ref's fault.
katman October 26, 2011 11:44 am
Regardless of your (no doubt objective) opinion, Lawrence was withdrawn by the IRB from further WC matches (and possibly from all top flight rugby refereeing for an extended period) based on his shocking performance. It has been widely reported in the English media that his non-officiating at the breakdown cost SA a spot in the semis. In fact, the UK Telegraph even ran a piece on him possibly retiring following the outcry. So no, this is not just a Springbok supporter’s moan. It’s a widely held view that he gifted the Aussies the game, and that the IRB have all but acknowledged this.
Giorgi October 26, 2011 2:08 pm
someone member Russia vs Ireland ??? For what have fined Cnobiladze? After this Cnobiladze is angel in comparison Mccaw
simmer October 26, 2011 2:24 pm
NZ had a big advantage having just come from another game refereed by Craig Joubert, so Richie Mccaw had a big head start already.
But any complaints against Richie Mccaw need to really be balanced against comparisons with other Number 7's - If a #7 isn't involved in every second ruck then they are not doing very well. They should be pushing as far as the referee allows them - or do northern hemisphere #7's really not do that?
It certainly means #7 is a key recipient of 'payback' from the opposition in rucks and mauls. To get caught going for the face of the opposition #7 is not a good look.
Meanwhile Media on all 3 sides (NZ, FRA, Neutral) are full of exaggerated views, so i am delighted to see clear facts here on rugbydump.com, and see heaps of constructive non-NZ views on the game.
My votes on some of the remaining issues are:
Some NZ media may be idiots, but others certainly thanked france for showing what its like to want the world cup so bad, and many agree that Dusatoir played amazingly.
Quade cooper earlier showed himself to be a bit of a dick, but I'm well bored of the issue now and would prefer to see him become a star, if he can. Stink if he got booed after his injury.
I hope that the general world opinion of the all blacks and NZ fans hasn't sunk further following the world cup - it was a great RWC with so many teams making a strong showing. Real NZ fans are now just relieved to be back to a level footing without media (both sides) continually claiming the world cup is all that matters to NZ. I guess France is next to feel hard done by in the world cup?
We just wanna see good rugby from good teams. And after, good fan response, harmony etc (no soccer riots here please).
But any complaints against Richie Mccaw need to really be balanced against comparisons with other Number 7's - If a #7 isn't involved in every second ruck then they are not doing very well. They should be pushing as far as the referee allows them - or do northern hemisphere #7's really not do that?
It certainly means #7 is a key recipient of 'payback' from the opposition in rucks and mauls. To get caught going for the face of the opposition #7 is not a good look.
Meanwhile Media on all 3 sides (NZ, FRA, Neutral) are full of exaggerated views, so i am delighted to see clear facts here on rugbydump.com, and see heaps of constructive non-NZ views on the game.
My votes on some of the remaining issues are:
Some NZ media may be idiots, but others certainly thanked france for showing what its like to want the world cup so bad, and many agree that Dusatoir played amazingly.
Quade cooper earlier showed himself to be a bit of a dick, but I'm well bored of the issue now and would prefer to see him become a star, if he can. Stink if he got booed after his injury.
I hope that the general world opinion of the all blacks and NZ fans hasn't sunk further following the world cup - it was a great RWC with so many teams making a strong showing. Real NZ fans are now just relieved to be back to a level footing without media (both sides) continually claiming the world cup is all that matters to NZ. I guess France is next to feel hard done by in the world cup?
We just wanna see good rugby from good teams. And after, good fan response, harmony etc (no soccer riots here please).
Oliver October 26, 2011 2:33 pm
Sorry I can't answer everybody, not enough time!
I'll try to keep this short.
1. I would not be so suspicious for the McCaw/Parra thing had the O'Driscoll 'incident' never happened. Umaga and Mealamu deliberately hurt the opposition's best player. They could've broken his neck. And that was a few years ago! With your former captain and a current player. Not some incident from 30 years ago, way before this sport became pro. For those who have not seen the O'Driscoll incident:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXJyDHFKn0
2. RD, could we see the second Parra incident by the way? He was struck a second time when he came back on the field. That's why both his cheekbones were hurt, as we can see on the picture. So to me, it was not only deliberate, but planned: rough up the opposing striker so he's less efficient. Well, it worked. Cheekbone fracture.
3. I know the press does not reflect everyone's opinion, but there is a collective responsability. Stop buying those papers and it's over.
4. The Bastareaud scandal cost him his international career. Is that enough for you? Umaga and Mealamu were not even cited.
5. I've actually given a lot of thought into this, and I think the core of the problem is that rugby is NZ's whole identity. therefore Kiwis are simply incapable of admitting their team has flaws. It's unfortunate because the crowd/press behaviour during this World Cup has been disgraceful. I wonder what would have happened had France won.
Right, last comment for me here, I need to move on. See you all in 2015!
I'll try to keep this short.
1. I would not be so suspicious for the McCaw/Parra thing had the O'Driscoll 'incident' never happened. Umaga and Mealamu deliberately hurt the opposition's best player. They could've broken his neck. And that was a few years ago! With your former captain and a current player. Not some incident from 30 years ago, way before this sport became pro. For those who have not seen the O'Driscoll incident:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXJyDHFKn0
2. RD, could we see the second Parra incident by the way? He was struck a second time when he came back on the field. That's why both his cheekbones were hurt, as we can see on the picture. So to me, it was not only deliberate, but planned: rough up the opposing striker so he's less efficient. Well, it worked. Cheekbone fracture.
3. I know the press does not reflect everyone's opinion, but there is a collective responsability. Stop buying those papers and it's over.
4. The Bastareaud scandal cost him his international career. Is that enough for you? Umaga and Mealamu were not even cited.
5. I've actually given a lot of thought into this, and I think the core of the problem is that rugby is NZ's whole identity. therefore Kiwis are simply incapable of admitting their team has flaws. It's unfortunate because the crowd/press behaviour during this World Cup has been disgraceful. I wonder what would have happened had France won.
Right, last comment for me here, I need to move on. See you all in 2015!
Jeri October 27, 2011 9:18 am
Bastareaud tried to kill himself later on - which is sad and nobody's happy about it. However I'd like you to keep in mind, the next time you insult another team's honor, that France is the only rugby team to have produced a player that lied about being racially assaulted on tour.
Let's move on. Good luck with your team next RWC
Let's move on. Good luck with your team next RWC
Oliver October 27, 2011 3:03 pm
I don't know where you get the racial bit, Bastareaud never said anything about that. Maybe your newspapers were 'creative' once again.
The one thing I agree with is: let's move on, et bonne chance.
The one thing I agree with is: let's move on, et bonne chance.
UHtiger October 27, 2011 10:45 pm
You say "lets move on" yet you put up a link to an incident which happened 7 years ago.
Oliver October 28, 2011 9:01 am
Dear Tiger, you yourself brought up an incident from over 30 years ago....
So to quote your fellow countryman Jeri:
I'd like you to keep in mind, the next time you insult another team's honor, that New Zealand is the only rugby team to have produced two players that inflicted a spear tackle on an opponent who did not even have the ball in hand.
Goddamn, this is really getting to me. I swore to myself I would not go on commenting all this.....
So to quote your fellow countryman Jeri:
I'd like you to keep in mind, the next time you insult another team's honor, that New Zealand is the only rugby team to have produced two players that inflicted a spear tackle on an opponent who did not even have the ball in hand.
Goddamn, this is really getting to me. I swore to myself I would not go on commenting all this.....
ystuk85 October 26, 2011 2:43 pm
i think the major drawback this tournament has been the standard of refereeing. there has been so much controversy surrounding referees that simply should not be there. the aim of the referee should be to remain anonymous. you should not remember the referee in the game. craig joubert in wales v ireland was like this and i think this is why he got the final. unfortunately he reffed france out of it. i can understand the french's frustration but just remember you were on the good side of the ref in the semi. and as for richie mccaw not acknowledging the french, yachvilli did exactly the same after the welsh game. so try not to forget your own history. the mccaw knee wasn't deliberate in my opinion, the rougerie gouging is disgusting and he should be banned. as for rugbydump, i don't know what nationality the site is which surely shows how impartial they are!
demidemele October 26, 2011 3:33 pm
The video of Rougerie gouging is a FAKE!!!!
MacCAw knows the rules perfectly and he was refereed by,according to Paddy O'brien, Marc Lievremont and Graham Henry, the best referee in the world.
However on the video it is clear that McCaw is not rolling away while he could, at least he could have pushed his upper body away from where the ball would have been released.
Such a good player cannot possibly do such a rookie mistake knowing that the ref would penalize him and he might loose the game of his life.
It is impossible for such a good ref not to see such an obvious infringement to the most basic rule of rugby.
Therefore McCaw Cannot be where the video shows, so the hand of Rougerie cannot be on his face...
On the other hand if the video is not a fake, we have two way of interpreting it:
1) McCaw is not such a good player every one pretend he is because he made a stupid move that could have cost him and his team the world cup
2) M Joubert is not a very good ref because he didn't see either McCaw being infringing or rougerie gouging and therefore giving a penalty to McCaw and/or a red card to Rougerie
maybe it is a little bit of both...
MacCAw knows the rules perfectly and he was refereed by,according to Paddy O'brien, Marc Lievremont and Graham Henry, the best referee in the world.
However on the video it is clear that McCaw is not rolling away while he could, at least he could have pushed his upper body away from where the ball would have been released.
Such a good player cannot possibly do such a rookie mistake knowing that the ref would penalize him and he might loose the game of his life.
It is impossible for such a good ref not to see such an obvious infringement to the most basic rule of rugby.
Therefore McCaw Cannot be where the video shows, so the hand of Rougerie cannot be on his face...
On the other hand if the video is not a fake, we have two way of interpreting it:
1) McCaw is not such a good player every one pretend he is because he made a stupid move that could have cost him and his team the world cup
2) M Joubert is not a very good ref because he didn't see either McCaw being infringing or rougerie gouging and therefore giving a penalty to McCaw and/or a red card to Rougerie
maybe it is a little bit of both...
rtm October 27, 2011 7:34 am
Are you French?
If so, you now have to reconcile yourself with the fact your countrymen were eye-gougers in the last 2 world cup finals they played.
You need to be looking at yourself and your team.
If so, you now have to reconcile yourself with the fact your countrymen were eye-gougers in the last 2 world cup finals they played.
You need to be looking at yourself and your team.
demidemele October 27, 2011 7:43 pm
yes i am french (so probably i'm an idiot...)
This post wasn't in any case an attempt to excuse what Rougerie apparently did (according to the video).
It was just a way to put things in perspective:
1)McCaw was slowing down the releasing of the ball each time he could, most of the time he did it in an illegal manner (this is not an opinion it's a fact)
2)Mr Joubert didn't penalize it. (once more just a fact)
Rougerie gesture is the result of the two facts sated above and happened after 76 min of a parody of world cup final. I do not excuse what he did but i definitely understand why he did it.
France had no chance to win this final with such a corrupted ref expect by cheating in the meanest possible way. At least Rougerie tried to win this game and he should be as ashamed of the gouging as the all blacks should be to have won a world cup that they don't deserve.
This post wasn't in any case an attempt to excuse what Rougerie apparently did (according to the video).
It was just a way to put things in perspective:
1)McCaw was slowing down the releasing of the ball each time he could, most of the time he did it in an illegal manner (this is not an opinion it's a fact)
2)Mr Joubert didn't penalize it. (once more just a fact)
Rougerie gesture is the result of the two facts sated above and happened after 76 min of a parody of world cup final. I do not excuse what he did but i definitely understand why he did it.
France had no chance to win this final with such a corrupted ref expect by cheating in the meanest possible way. At least Rougerie tried to win this game and he should be as ashamed of the gouging as the all blacks should be to have won a world cup that they don't deserve.
moddeur October 27, 2011 8:08 pm
Your tone is a bit pedantic. Is French rugby a paradise for filthy eye-gougers?
I see 2 All-Blacks in the following list, with corresponding events in NZ domestic games: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye-gouging_%28rugby_union%29
Of course this list is only about convicted felons, there may be a lot of free-roaming gougers still out there (and Rougerie may yet be one of them).
I see 2 All-Blacks in the following list, with corresponding events in NZ domestic games: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye-gouging_%28rugby_union%29
Of course this list is only about convicted felons, there may be a lot of free-roaming gougers still out there (and Rougerie may yet be one of them).
UHtiger October 29, 2011 6:46 am
yes 2 from new zealand (both are regarded as dirty players in nz) and counting rougerie there is 6 from france.
Cardiff Blues Fan October 26, 2011 3:41 pm
Sorry to hear you've had some abuse. I've been following for a few years and still haven't noticed which nationality you are, so don't let it bother you.
hugo October 26, 2011 5:18 pm
Having played the game when you go into a ruck and someone has fallen on your legs, or the ruck has shifted and you've lost your footing, the ref can yell roll out until he's passed out but it isn't going to change the fact that you can't move. Using that as a reason to rake the eyes seems a bit foolish. As far as the Maccaw knee to parra, it wasn't intentional he is running at full speed to clear a man off the ruck, parra just had bad luck to be in the way.
Just Call Me Ehtch October 26, 2011 6:36 pm
poem, from a taffy, for rugby, and rugbydump. off the cuff here and now. I am getting a reputation online for being a flash poet, and all. Clever c*nt in other words! : ) Well, here fucking goes;
Rugger played, eyes gouged, testicles, a raid,
maul ruck scrum like fuck, even if we are not talled,
balled even between legs we will still not stinking fall,
to other man unballed, english hopefully, but maorid on their sands, with their foghorn call.
How's that? Pants? OK then.
Rugger played, eyes gouged, testicles, a raid,
maul ruck scrum like fuck, even if we are not talled,
balled even between legs we will still not stinking fall,
to other man unballed, english hopefully, but maorid on their sands, with their foghorn call.
How's that? Pants? OK then.
Morgan Freeman October 26, 2011 6:39 pm
In the final there was also the incidents where the ref stopped play for a NZ player who was injured, but told the french that he wasn't going to allow them to waste time when one of their players was injured (Think this was the 2nd time Parra got one in the face). RD is there any footage you can find of this?
KiwibornFrenchSupporter October 26, 2011 7:25 pm
I used to support the All Blacks but now post the final, I do not. I have seen the reality of the AB game and I am ashamed. Joubert (giving him the benefit of the doubt) was a complete coward. There were one set of rules for NZ and a different set for the french. He made a mockery of the refereeing profession. The AB's were a better team over the course of the tournament but France won the final. For me this ruined the spectacle as it was not a fair match.
I am embarrassed how cringe worthy and obvious the AB transgressions were. I would like to propose in future the ref is not SH or NH top drawer but a true neutral.
Also, the NZ press were embarrassing, Crass comment and what sort of rude idiot disturbs people when they are eating in a restaurant. This is harassment and is against the law in France. So to cut a long story short I have a new user name.
I am embarrassed how cringe worthy and obvious the AB transgressions were. I would like to propose in future the ref is not SH or NH top drawer but a true neutral.
Also, the NZ press were embarrassing, Crass comment and what sort of rude idiot disturbs people when they are eating in a restaurant. This is harassment and is against the law in France. So to cut a long story short I have a new user name.
simmer October 28, 2011 10:30 am
This is a very poor attempt at impersonating an (ex) All Blacks supporter.
Real All blacks supporters are either:
- clueless and arrogant, unlikely to ever change their opinion
- or well aware of the claims of favoritism that (mostly NH) media and fans make, and can see why those claims exist and tend to wish it wasn't such a big distraction. But still recognize some really awesome players in the nz side, who were lucky or skilled enough to play right up to the referee's limit. The only embarrassing transgressions in the final were french, and perhaps Craig Joubert's.
Real All blacks supporters are either:
- clueless and arrogant, unlikely to ever change their opinion
- or well aware of the claims of favoritism that (mostly NH) media and fans make, and can see why those claims exist and tend to wish it wasn't such a big distraction. But still recognize some really awesome players in the nz side, who were lucky or skilled enough to play right up to the referee's limit. The only embarrassing transgressions in the final were french, and perhaps Craig Joubert's.
Anarchangel October 26, 2011 9:59 pm
I'm very surprised at the speed at which the Aussie pundit goes through that list. You can't see any of the penalties at first watch, most of the his criticisms are extremely subtle and require a second or third watch, and would ideally have a slow motion replay. Viewers basically have to take his comments on faith. That's terrible reporting.
When you do their work for yourself and rewatch the alleged incidents yourself, it's pretty clear that half of the things the Aussie guy points out are not penalties at all. Moreover, the inconsistencies were explained very poorly, half of them weren't inconsistent at all, and Joubert was pretty much unsighted for the two legitimate penalties in there.
I think they were smoking whatever Laurence Dellaglio was smoking when he "commentated" the game on ITV. That commentary team was right up there with the worst I've heard and these two pundits aren't much better. This just looks like the typical NH assumption of guilt as usual.
When you do their work for yourself and rewatch the alleged incidents yourself, it's pretty clear that half of the things the Aussie guy points out are not penalties at all. Moreover, the inconsistencies were explained very poorly, half of them weren't inconsistent at all, and Joubert was pretty much unsighted for the two legitimate penalties in there.
I think they were smoking whatever Laurence Dellaglio was smoking when he "commentated" the game on ITV. That commentary team was right up there with the worst I've heard and these two pundits aren't much better. This just looks like the typical NH assumption of guilt as usual.
Isaac October 27, 2011 2:28 am
I dont know why people keep saying the French completely outplayed the All Blacks. The All blacks were better for most of the first half, the french were better for most of the 2nd. The only time france got over NZ's 22 was when dusatouir scored. They never looked like scoring anymore trys after that, both defenses were impenetrable for 90% of the game.
1. The kick went over, you gotta be a moron to think it didnt. Why would the french players not say anything if it missed.
2. Mccaws knee was accidental, happens all the time in rucks, parra is just soft.
3. Looks like a rake across the face for me, Rougerie is an idiot if he went for the eyes.
4. I thought Joubert refereed the best in the RWC, he may of made some 50/50 calls but what ref gets every single call right? The penalty count was 10-7. Not a big difference.
5. The haka fine is stupid, its supposed to be challenged and i dont know why the two teams have to be so far away from eachother, the closer they are the better the spectacle. (Did anyone notice that whenever teams do return the challenge, the AB's dont play as well as they normally do) P.S. IRB are idiots!!
6. RUGBYDUMP is my favourite rugbysite, has been for ages and i havent seen any bias towards any team the whole time ive been coming here. Keep up the good work guys.
7. BRING BACK RUCKING! A few sprig marks never killed anybody!
1. The kick went over, you gotta be a moron to think it didnt. Why would the french players not say anything if it missed.
2. Mccaws knee was accidental, happens all the time in rucks, parra is just soft.
3. Looks like a rake across the face for me, Rougerie is an idiot if he went for the eyes.
4. I thought Joubert refereed the best in the RWC, he may of made some 50/50 calls but what ref gets every single call right? The penalty count was 10-7. Not a big difference.
5. The haka fine is stupid, its supposed to be challenged and i dont know why the two teams have to be so far away from eachother, the closer they are the better the spectacle. (Did anyone notice that whenever teams do return the challenge, the AB's dont play as well as they normally do) P.S. IRB are idiots!!
6. RUGBYDUMP is my favourite rugbysite, has been for ages and i havent seen any bias towards any team the whole time ive been coming here. Keep up the good work guys.
7. BRING BACK RUCKING! A few sprig marks never killed anybody!
mendorugger October 27, 2011 9:16 am
In regards to RD showing favoritism, which I have read nothing about but im sure it has something to do with to much All Black footage, I would say I disagree. RD has always shown themselves to be a high caliber site who shows "whats going on" in rugby in the moment. There has been alot of NZ footage lately, but let me remind you all that they were hosting the cup, therefore if you want to show footage from the RWC11, its gonna be in NZ. Some people just dont know how to say thank you. Thank you RD for all that you give us and for remaining balanced in this fellas eyes. keep on doing what yall do
Rugbydump October 27, 2011 9:39 am
Thanks for the support of those who have left positive comments. They've all been read and are appreciated. Great to see some good discussions taking place too. Cheers
rhino rees October 27, 2011 12:08 pm
Kick looks out. You can even pause the clip above as it passes the post and see that the ball is obscured by the post.
Shown close-up here and I don't think talksport would doctor it, so it must have missed??:
http://www.talksport.co.uk/radio/drivetime/blog/2011-10-26/video-poll-did-new-zealand-actually-score-winning-penalty-rugby-world-cup-final
I'm a neutral and it's academic anyway....overall NZ deserved to win the RWC.
Shown close-up here and I don't think talksport would doctor it, so it must have missed??:
http://www.talksport.co.uk/radio/drivetime/blog/2011-10-26/video-poll-did-new-zealand-actually-score-winning-penalty-rugby-world-cup-final
I'm a neutral and it's academic anyway....overall NZ deserved to win the RWC.
UHtiger October 27, 2011 2:33 pm
Did you even watch the vids theyve got linked with these comments. Much better video quality and clearly shows it going over.
Rhino Rees October 27, 2011 4:25 pm
Yep, you're right. I looked again at the one they're using on talksport for their survey and it looks a bit dodgy just around the time the ball is passing the post.
simmer October 28, 2011 10:36 am
Wow, their video is pretty subtle for sure, if I wanted to see it miss then I would probably believe it too. I figure, if we cant be certain which video is doctored, then logic tells me the French team (standing under and very close to the posts) would never have let that penalty go un-protested if they thought it had missed.
murph October 28, 2011 5:30 pm
If NZ deserved to win the cup because of form then why bother having the final at all? We in Europe could have stayed in bed. Aaron Cruden's knee would still be intact and the Kiwis could have engaged in their onanistic orgy a week early.
oslosinclair October 27, 2011 3:39 pm
rougerie tried to eye-gouge him, not the French team, their supporters or the rugby public. McCaw should have acknowledged his opponents. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/1025/1224306445492.html
Pato October 27, 2011 4:03 pm
1. Knee or fist or whatever on Parra is not intentional... clearly seen on the video.
2.on the other hand... Rougerie's frustration is clearly showed by his action... that was very intentional.
Great day to ya'll and Rugby Dump is the best rugby site ever..keep up the great work
2.on the other hand... Rougerie's frustration is clearly showed by his action... that was very intentional.
Great day to ya'll and Rugby Dump is the best rugby site ever..keep up the great work
Pato October 27, 2011 4:07 pm
1. Knee or fist or whatever on Parra is not intentional... clearly seen on the video.
2.on the other hand... Rougerie's frustration is clearly showed by his action... that was very intentional.
Great day to ya'll and Rugby Dump is the best rugby site ever..keep up the great work
2.on the other hand... Rougerie's frustration is clearly showed by his action... that was very intentional.
Great day to ya'll and Rugby Dump is the best rugby site ever..keep up the great work
Frenchie October 27, 2011 5:35 pm
The fine is just ridiculous! You know what i'd say? Lets cross the freaking line everytime we play against the AB! Lets pay the fine everytime, as a French fan i'll be more than happy to send some cash to the French Federation and tell the AB to fuck off!
The Haka becomes even a farce itself with such fine: the AB can do their stuff, intimidate you with a throat cutting gesture and you're supposed to stand there and do shit?? Soon the opponent with have to clap and say thank you...After all it's a war dance so you'd expect a reaction from the opponent, right. The IRB has been way too far protecting the AB, big shame!
As for the NZ press it has hit bottom low with all the crap they've been writting, similar to a trash talk tv show. In short the French are the bad guys, the Kiwis are angels (especially the Captain). Great stuff guys.
I have no respect for the AB anymore.
Joubert clearly had a shocker on the day and didn't ref the ruck area for 40 min. Full stop!
The Haka becomes even a farce itself with such fine: the AB can do their stuff, intimidate you with a throat cutting gesture and you're supposed to stand there and do shit?? Soon the opponent with have to clap and say thank you...After all it's a war dance so you'd expect a reaction from the opponent, right. The IRB has been way too far protecting the AB, big shame!
As for the NZ press it has hit bottom low with all the crap they've been writting, similar to a trash talk tv show. In short the French are the bad guys, the Kiwis are angels (especially the Captain). Great stuff guys.
I have no respect for the AB anymore.
Joubert clearly had a shocker on the day and didn't ref the ruck area for 40 min. Full stop!
UHtiger October 27, 2011 10:59 pm
I agree, the fine is stupid but then again the rule is their for a reason and the french broke it. The same rule applies for the smaller nations that do their own haka.
The haka that the all blacks do is not one of war. The throat slitting gesture means something different in maori culture however after initial complaints they did change the action. It is only a couple of the over zealous players who do it.
The NZ press are the same as anywhere in the world, the All Blacks get the same whenever they visit their main rivals.
"I have no respect for the AB anymore". No-one cares about a sour frenchman who's throwing his toys out the cot because his team lost.
Joubert reffed the same way he's always reffed. He rewards teams for having a good counter ruck and realises that players can and will lose their footing whilst doing so.
The haka that the all blacks do is not one of war. The throat slitting gesture means something different in maori culture however after initial complaints they did change the action. It is only a couple of the over zealous players who do it.
The NZ press are the same as anywhere in the world, the All Blacks get the same whenever they visit their main rivals.
"I have no respect for the AB anymore". No-one cares about a sour frenchman who's throwing his toys out the cot because his team lost.
Joubert reffed the same way he's always reffed. He rewards teams for having a good counter ruck and realises that players can and will lose their footing whilst doing so.
kevtoulousaing October 29, 2011 10:30 pm
hahahaha deadly!
yep, i think "throat slitting" means " let's go home and have a cup of tea, then I might give you a massage with jasmin oil" in maori.
yep, i think "throat slitting" means " let's go home and have a cup of tea, then I might give you a massage with jasmin oil" in maori.
Spud October 28, 2011 2:04 am
Its not unreasonable for a News Paper to criticize a team for spitting on their reporters. I also don't think the French can blame the press for highlighting the fact that one of their players tried to scratch a man's eyes out. If that sort of play is not condemned it will only get worse.
Well done to the All Blacks for just ignoring it and not letting it detract from the final.
Well done to the All Blacks for just ignoring it and not letting it detract from the final.
Le Lyonnais October 27, 2011 5:48 pm
I am proud of XV de France! Bravo les Petits !
nemo34 October 28, 2011 6:35 am
Ok, thank you Rugbydump for your impartiality.
I'm french.
Yes, I think there are legitimate questions to be asked to Rougerie. It is not a proper "fork" but there seems to be something;
Yes, I think referring in the famoue 2007 quarter-final was unfair;
No, I don't think Duck'penalty missed ann I don't think Yachvili's one was in
but
1 - The referring of the final is outrageous. And this outrage was done in front of the whole f...g rugby planet. What a marvelous example to be shown to kids: You wanna be champions? Play it like Kaino! The number 10 bothers you? Ram-it like McCaw!
2 - During the whole World Cup, the kiwi press has been outrageous with the french team. Remember the "Final Insult" headline of the Herald. I always pretended Rugby is a gentlemen's sport and kiwis are rugby gods. Now I know it was all bullshit.
3 - The gouging case seems like a very pale smoke screen thrown by kiwi press to try to cover with numerous insults. It legitimate their villaining campaign (we told you they were bad boys), it makes us forget the poor game played by ABs during the final, it changes the refering evaluation from "partial" to "poor", it balances McCaw agression on Parra (McCaw is no beginner. 3 times best player on the planet, 1.5 millions rucks a year and it didn't see Parra's head?)
4 - This Cup is tainted with shame and dishonor. Bash-washing will not help make it shine
I'm french.
Yes, I think there are legitimate questions to be asked to Rougerie. It is not a proper "fork" but there seems to be something;
Yes, I think referring in the famoue 2007 quarter-final was unfair;
No, I don't think Duck'penalty missed ann I don't think Yachvili's one was in
but
1 - The referring of the final is outrageous. And this outrage was done in front of the whole f...g rugby planet. What a marvelous example to be shown to kids: You wanna be champions? Play it like Kaino! The number 10 bothers you? Ram-it like McCaw!
2 - During the whole World Cup, the kiwi press has been outrageous with the french team. Remember the "Final Insult" headline of the Herald. I always pretended Rugby is a gentlemen's sport and kiwis are rugby gods. Now I know it was all bullshit.
3 - The gouging case seems like a very pale smoke screen thrown by kiwi press to try to cover with numerous insults. It legitimate their villaining campaign (we told you they were bad boys), it makes us forget the poor game played by ABs during the final, it changes the refering evaluation from "partial" to "poor", it balances McCaw agression on Parra (McCaw is no beginner. 3 times best player on the planet, 1.5 millions rucks a year and it didn't see Parra's head?)
4 - This Cup is tainted with shame and dishonor. Bash-washing will not help make it shine
breakaway October 28, 2011 7:18 am
@nemo34: I appreciate you pointing out that you're French at the start.. I would never have guessed.
Comparing your silly over-the-top rants against NZ and the RWC, with your assessment of Rougerie's eye-gouging as "there seems to be something", is amusing.
Comparing your silly over-the-top rants against NZ and the RWC, with your assessment of Rougerie's eye-gouging as "there seems to be something", is amusing.
anonymous no6 October 28, 2011 7:59 pm
I can't remember a worse world cup. There was a lot wrong off the pitch but worst of all the general standard of rugby was terrible. The rule changes at the breakdown haven't worked. The last two world cup finals have brought a grand total of 36 points and two tries. Thats just not acceptable, no one wants to see some stupid forward and midfield battle but tries, and moments of inspiration. For the stand out players in a world cup to mostly be number 7s (warburton, pocock, mccaw, dusattoir) go a long way in showing how the new rules have placed too much importance at the breakdown and made life too difficult for referees.
Also hosting world cups: 2011 in NZ, 2015 in England. What's the point?? I know its been raised before but this kind of short sighted thinking is ruining the game, the WC should be in a country like America, Japan, Argentina! Stop keeping it within the 'old boys club'
Also hosting world cups: 2011 in NZ, 2015 in England. What's the point?? I know its been raised before but this kind of short sighted thinking is ruining the game, the WC should be in a country like America, Japan, Argentina! Stop keeping it within the 'old boys club'
anonymous no6 October 28, 2011 8:02 pm
p.s. thanks to RD for the continued videos and coverage, as much as this world cup hasn't excited me I'm glad it's been covered so well.
Pretzel October 31, 2011 2:09 pm
hmmm, the problem is the RWC is the worst competition to see flair and inspiration.... I mean look at the final, I'm sure everyone can say that NZ are probably the best (or at least one of the best) in the world, but did they look like that in the final? I mean their backline are supposed to be one of the most deadliest in the game, quick, fast, strong etc etc... all I saw them do was tackle (which to their credit they did immensely)... they looked lost really.
The french on the other hand showed great flair which is pretty unusual in a world cup because lets face it, flair can be risky, and the last thing you want to do is lose a world cup because you did something slightly risky and it lead to points to the other team...
you just need to listen to attitudes of the players, I think Quade cooper summed it up pretty well, when he said something along the lines of "i'd rather play badly and win than play well and lose" because lets face it, they are not comedians or actors, they are not there to entertain us...
The french on the other hand showed great flair which is pretty unusual in a world cup because lets face it, flair can be risky, and the last thing you want to do is lose a world cup because you did something slightly risky and it lead to points to the other team...
you just need to listen to attitudes of the players, I think Quade cooper summed it up pretty well, when he said something along the lines of "i'd rather play badly and win than play well and lose" because lets face it, they are not comedians or actors, they are not there to entertain us...
Dan October 28, 2011 9:27 pm
Kick was good.
Parra injury was intentional in my mind but would have been hard to call given the situation.
Clear eye gouging by Rougerie with hindsight.
NZ got the breaks from the referee and sometimes it goes that way.
France were lucky to be there at all. They were appalling in the pool play and they were very fortunate to beat Wales. Their luck ran out in the finals.
It's the right result.
I am Irish.
Parra injury was intentional in my mind but would have been hard to call given the situation.
Clear eye gouging by Rougerie with hindsight.
NZ got the breaks from the referee and sometimes it goes that way.
France were lucky to be there at all. They were appalling in the pool play and they were very fortunate to beat Wales. Their luck ran out in the finals.
It's the right result.
I am Irish.
Dan October 28, 2011 9:27 pm
Kick was good.
Parra injury was intentional in my mind but would have been hard to call given the situation.
Clear eye gouging by Rougerie with hindsight.
NZ got the breaks from the referee and sometimes it goes that way.
France were lucky to be there at all. They were appalling in the pool play and they were very fortunate to beat Wales. Their luck ran out in the finals.
It's the right result.
I am Irish.
Parra injury was intentional in my mind but would have been hard to call given the situation.
Clear eye gouging by Rougerie with hindsight.
NZ got the breaks from the referee and sometimes it goes that way.
France were lucky to be there at all. They were appalling in the pool play and they were very fortunate to beat Wales. Their luck ran out in the finals.
It's the right result.
I am Irish.
kevtoulousaing October 28, 2011 11:27 pm
(french fan by the way)
knee and kick not even worth talking about. A bit sad for Parra who was playing the game of his life.
Gouging is a shame. Rougerie should've been cited and banned for a few months
My real concern is about Joubert. I think he was under terrible pressure and lost his impartiality. Since they weren't being penalized, the ABs (especially McCaw) noticed it and made the most of it (Kaino incident). Yes I'd call them cheats. But I'd do the same thing to win a RWC!
Problem is JOUBERT SEES ALL THAT AND DOESN'T CARE. Where did he loose it?
Other problem is: The game lost a lot of credibility
Last problem is: We'll have to declare war to NZ if f**** journalists keep on treating our boys like shit ;)
knee and kick not even worth talking about. A bit sad for Parra who was playing the game of his life.
Gouging is a shame. Rougerie should've been cited and banned for a few months
My real concern is about Joubert. I think he was under terrible pressure and lost his impartiality. Since they weren't being penalized, the ABs (especially McCaw) noticed it and made the most of it (Kaino incident). Yes I'd call them cheats. But I'd do the same thing to win a RWC!
Problem is JOUBERT SEES ALL THAT AND DOESN'T CARE. Where did he loose it?
Other problem is: The game lost a lot of credibility
Last problem is: We'll have to declare war to NZ if f**** journalists keep on treating our boys like shit ;)
Stubby October 29, 2011 12:48 am
Canadian
I was fooled by the kick. Damned camera operators. But everyone on the field knew it was good.
Slo-motion does a real injustice to many events on the field. At regular speed it is just a typical clear out in which Parra raised is head at the wrong time.
why some of you say the was no head butt, i can't imagine. Both views clearly show Rougerie's head making contact with McCaw's head prior to the gouge. They should have complained to the IRB. That kind of play is despicable. I know McCaw is a very irritating player but a deliberate head butt and eye-gouge... he would have been banned for a year if not longer and well deserved too. Not reporting him hurts the game. The citing period should be longer to allow people to analyze the footage. I don't think anyone except Rougerie knew how bad it was until it was to late to do anything.
Joubert joubert joubert. It is a fine line to walk between enforcing every infraction and just letting them play. I think some simultaneous yellow cards might have been in order. "Captains: if you can't keep your guys in order I will start reaching into my pocket".
That was a very boring final. A very boring World Cup. By penalizing 2nd tier teams with 5 days rest instead of the 7 days tier one teams get, the IRB is stacking the deck.
The kickers were crap (Almost everyone in the tournament in fact). The french were very lucky to be there in the final. I feel that Canada could have won that game if their kickers had not missed those first half penalties. They would have been tied at the half. And that would have been a big boost.
Canada should have beaten Japan but AGAIN the kickers choked.
I was fooled by the kick. Damned camera operators. But everyone on the field knew it was good.
Slo-motion does a real injustice to many events on the field. At regular speed it is just a typical clear out in which Parra raised is head at the wrong time.
why some of you say the was no head butt, i can't imagine. Both views clearly show Rougerie's head making contact with McCaw's head prior to the gouge. They should have complained to the IRB. That kind of play is despicable. I know McCaw is a very irritating player but a deliberate head butt and eye-gouge... he would have been banned for a year if not longer and well deserved too. Not reporting him hurts the game. The citing period should be longer to allow people to analyze the footage. I don't think anyone except Rougerie knew how bad it was until it was to late to do anything.
Joubert joubert joubert. It is a fine line to walk between enforcing every infraction and just letting them play. I think some simultaneous yellow cards might have been in order. "Captains: if you can't keep your guys in order I will start reaching into my pocket".
That was a very boring final. A very boring World Cup. By penalizing 2nd tier teams with 5 days rest instead of the 7 days tier one teams get, the IRB is stacking the deck.
The kickers were crap (Almost everyone in the tournament in fact). The french were very lucky to be there in the final. I feel that Canada could have won that game if their kickers had not missed those first half penalties. They would have been tied at the half. And that would have been a big boost.
Canada should have beaten Japan but AGAIN the kickers choked.
JG October 29, 2011 3:06 am
A lot of comments about the reffing which in my opinion is just wasted. If you think the ref may be against you, the trick is to score more points than the other team. NZ could not do it against France 4 years ago, Australia could not do it against Ireland, SA could not do it against Australia, Wales could not do it against France, and France could not do it against NZ, end of story. You will find that the IRB has their own process to rate the referees, and they certainly do not need your bias help, regardless of your bias opinions and conspiracy theories.
bib160 October 29, 2011 3:37 am
You are right,
The only problem is that against NZ there is only to ways to score point:
1) Scoring penalty from a very hard pressure by the forwards in the rucks
2) Scoring tries after multiple phases (+15) without making mistakes (knock on or penalties)
The bad refereeing in the ruck area resulted in the impossibility to play multiple phases (hence, no tries) and the pressure put by the forward should have resulted in kickable penalties but Joubert forgot to take his responsability.
An other concern of the french fans is also that the 3 kickable penalties given to the AB should not have been given.
The only problem is that against NZ there is only to ways to score point:
1) Scoring penalty from a very hard pressure by the forwards in the rucks
2) Scoring tries after multiple phases (+15) without making mistakes (knock on or penalties)
The bad refereeing in the ruck area resulted in the impossibility to play multiple phases (hence, no tries) and the pressure put by the forward should have resulted in kickable penalties but Joubert forgot to take his responsability.
An other concern of the french fans is also that the 3 kickable penalties given to the AB should not have been given.
kevtoulousaing October 29, 2011 10:19 pm
Totally agree.
Only difference is that in most games you're talking about, refereeing wasn't that much on a one-way track. The final was.
Seems you didn't see my post. I'm not talking about conspiracy theories, only of one man overwhelmed by pressure.
Anyway, well done NZ! Well done France for a great final! We are proud anyway
Only difference is that in most games you're talking about, refereeing wasn't that much on a one-way track. The final was.
Seems you didn't see my post. I'm not talking about conspiracy theories, only of one man overwhelmed by pressure.
Anyway, well done NZ! Well done France for a great final! We are proud anyway
Toulousain October 29, 2011 9:33 am
I am French and I found referee generally good on this game : There were a few mistakes, like all games.I give you a link to a statistical analysis that defends the arbitration of Mr. Joubert. It's written in French, so for the elite ;)
http://misterrugby.wordpress.com/2011/10/28/les-videos-accablent-monsieur-joubert-%E2%80%A6-les-stats-donnent-une-autre-vision-des-faits/
http://misterrugby.wordpress.com/2011/10/28/les-videos-accablent-monsieur-joubert-%E2%80%A6-les-stats-donnent-une-autre-vision-des-faits/
Urban October 30, 2011 1:43 pm
If i sumarise :
If a NZ (or anglo-saxon in general) player do something wrong it is an accident.
If a French (or Latin in general) player do something wrong it is an agression.
Ok, nothing news.
If a NZ (or anglo-saxon in general) player do something wrong it is an accident.
If a French (or Latin in general) player do something wrong it is an agression.
Ok, nothing news.
Brazilnut October 31, 2011 1:18 am
What a great site this is. Just discovered it.
Re. McCaw Parra. Parra unfortunately lifted his head just at the wrong time. I've done it before and had a knee in the head from my own team mates as they piled into a ruck. Advice for Parra - Keep your head down until the ruck passes over or cover your head at all times.
Re. McCaw Parra. Parra unfortunately lifted his head just at the wrong time. I've done it before and had a knee in the head from my own team mates as they piled into a ruck. Advice for Parra - Keep your head down until the ruck passes over or cover your head at all times.
Pretzel October 31, 2011 2:17 pm
McCaw is no saint, but I honestly, truly cannot believe that people are going on about the McCaw Parra incident.... especially seeing as when Trin Duhc came on he played immensely... nothing like taking a 9 wearing a 10 shirt off and subbing him with a REAL 10....
I though Parra played really well and all credit to him, but this incident looked nothing more than an accident... really given what McCaw was up to all game I'm pretty sure you'd have other things to moan about rather than Parra...
As for RD showing an apparent lack of impartiality....!??!?!?! what??!?! I haven't been as frequent on the comment section as I used to be when it was a bit more free-for-all like... so maybe its in the commenting, but who exactly is RD supposed to be more bias towards?!?! I can't say I ever noticed it....
I though Parra played really well and all credit to him, but this incident looked nothing more than an accident... really given what McCaw was up to all game I'm pretty sure you'd have other things to moan about rather than Parra...
As for RD showing an apparent lack of impartiality....!??!?!?! what??!?! I haven't been as frequent on the comment section as I used to be when it was a bit more free-for-all like... so maybe its in the commenting, but who exactly is RD supposed to be more bias towards?!?! I can't say I ever noticed it....
browner July 13, 2012 12:43 pm
Anyone who has played Flanker/Back row knows exactly what McCaw was doing - as did he .......
He took the 'opportunity' to punch Parra in ther face 'on the way into the contest with Dusautoir ... i'm 100% that any knee contact was accidental , but i'm 100% that the clenched fist that was heading downwards towards Parra's face was deliberate [it's contrary to all the laws of motion/physics for someone intending to engage with dusautoir]
that fact is that it all happens so quickly is the pure brilliance of McCaw - he knows, and if he ever reads this then he will chuckle and smile, but likely never admit it. It's part of what made him great.
The Eye gouge is despicable, and McCaws response adds weight to his greatness . rougerie should be banned, NZ were right not to raise it, but if the IRB are serious at cleaning up such thuggery then they should not need NZ to raise the subject they should just act anyway !
LISTEN and ACT IRB your credibility demands it!!!
He took the 'opportunity' to punch Parra in ther face 'on the way into the contest with Dusautoir ... i'm 100% that any knee contact was accidental , but i'm 100% that the clenched fist that was heading downwards towards Parra's face was deliberate [it's contrary to all the laws of motion/physics for someone intending to engage with dusautoir]
that fact is that it all happens so quickly is the pure brilliance of McCaw - he knows, and if he ever reads this then he will chuckle and smile, but likely never admit it. It's part of what made him great.
The Eye gouge is despicable, and McCaws response adds weight to his greatness . rougerie should be banned, NZ were right not to raise it, but if the IRB are serious at cleaning up such thuggery then they should not need NZ to raise the subject they should just act anyway !
LISTEN and ACT IRB your credibility demands it!!!
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