Sunday, March 11, 2012
Ireland beat Scotland in eventful Six Nations clash in Dublin
Ireland scored four tries as they put Scotland away with a 32-14 Six Nations victory in Dublin on Saturday. The match will be remembered for a few stand out moments, including a horrific head knock to Scotland back Lee Jones.
Jones, who collided with Andrew Trimble as the Irish winger came in to make the tackle, was knocked out cold instantly. He was stretchered off and spent the night in hospital, but appears to be stable after a 'severe concussion', and will travel home on Monday.
Tries were scored for Ireland by captain on the day Rory Best, Eoin Reddan, Andrew Trimble and Fergus McFadden, while Scotland's only try came from the brilliant second rower Richie Gray.
Gray, at 6ft10, galloped through a tackle before throwing a perfectly timed dummy on the way to the tryline. Scotland winger Max Evans was later yellow carded for a tug on Keith Earls that perhaps prevented a try being scored, and star winger Tommy Bowe was penalised over the tryline for a double movement in the second half.
"You can look at the TMO one, you have to release the player in the tackle, but we will take the four tries and move on," said coach Declan Kidney.
"I think our decision-making is getting better all the time, when to move it, when to play position. We are asking more questions of the opposition. When we've lost matches we didn't get overly despondent; just because we've won one, we're not going to get overly excited.
"We will enjoy tonight but will not get carried away because we know we have to be in Twickenham on St Patrick's Day," he added.
Posted at 1:50 pm | 43 comments
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Viewing 43 comments
No9scrum March 11, 2012 6:25 pm
I'd agree with tommy bowes try not being awarded cause I think he was held up over the line. If he had been tackled then moved over the line it would have been a penalty for not releasing against Morrison.
I can't see how it was called a penalty to Scotland for double movement though. All I see is a penalty against Scotland, or a 5 m scrum for being held up.
Thought??
I can't see how it was called a penalty to Scotland for double movement though. All I see is a penalty against Scotland, or a 5 m scrum for being held up.
Thought??
yupyupgup March 11, 2012 7:29 pm
definite penalty against scotland, Bowe was not able to place the ball due to the Scottish player holding onto bowe for a considerable amount of time, if that tackle had taken place one meter outside the in-goal area, the Scot would be sitting in the bin for 10, so why not in the in-goal area? complete lack of consistency.
No9scrum March 11, 2012 7:31 pm
True apart from When your holding the ball up over the try line. Then you don't have to release him.
It's only if he was tackled before the try line
It's only if he was tackled before the try line
No9scrum March 11, 2012 7:31 pm
True apart from When your holding the ball up over the try line. Then you don't have to release him.
It's only if he was tackled before the try line
It's only if he was tackled before the try line
jog1986 March 11, 2012 7:34 pm
Think that No9scrum has it right there. There is a nuance in the law whereby you don't have to release in goal, therefore Morrison was perfectly within his rights to hold onto Bowe. That being said, it was surely held up and not a double movement which should've resulted in an attacking 5 metre scrum.
MattyP March 12, 2012 12:56 am
Just to be clear - a tackle, as defined in the laws, can only take place in the field of play. The goal line (or "try line" as some call it) is NOT part of the field of play. Therefore, in order for the decision made to be correct, the official(s) must have decided that a tackle was effected in the field of play. On review it looks to me like TB landed on the goal line, and that the correct decision would have been a 5m scrum to Ireland.
Full Back March 12, 2012 10:39 pm
MattyP, the try area is most definitely part of the field of play, the dead-ball line is where that ends. The tackle was made legally and there's no onus on the tackler to release the player when behind his own tryline. You do however have to release the ball.
Held up is given when a player exerts downward pressure but an opposition player gets himself between ball and ground, that's a different infraction and doesn't apply here.
Put simply you can't play the ball on the ground in any case but you can hang on to the tackled player. Penalty to Scotland was spot on.
Held up is given when a player exerts downward pressure but an opposition player gets himself between ball and ground, that's a different infraction and doesn't apply here.
Put simply you can't play the ball on the ground in any case but you can hang on to the tackled player. Penalty to Scotland was spot on.
MattyP March 12, 2012 10:52 pm
Check the laws before you shoot your mouth Fullback.
From the definitions in section 1:
"The Field of Play is the area (as shown on the plan) between the goal lines and the touchlines. These lines are not part of the field of play.
The Playing Area is the field of play and the in-goal areas (as shown on the plan). The touchlines, touch-in-goal lines and dead ball lines are not part of the playing area."
Your are describing the Playing Area, not the Field of Play.
If you can't be bothered to read the law book, please don't pretend you know what you are talking about.
From the definitions in section 1:
"The Field of Play is the area (as shown on the plan) between the goal lines and the touchlines. These lines are not part of the field of play.
The Playing Area is the field of play and the in-goal areas (as shown on the plan). The touchlines, touch-in-goal lines and dead ball lines are not part of the playing area."
Your are describing the Playing Area, not the Field of Play.
If you can't be bothered to read the law book, please don't pretend you know what you are talking about.
Full Back March 12, 2012 11:12 pm
@MattyP, before I shoot my mouth? Take a chill pill there fella, no one's under attack.
I've been playing rugby for close on 20yrs, so pardon me if I don't go splitting hairs or googling rules in order to have an informed opinion.
They were out of the field of play were they? Fine so, the point of the situation doesn't really change though does it? The tackler is under no obligation to release the tackled player and the ball may not be played on the ground. As Morrison doesn't hold up the ball, but simply hangs on to Bowe forcing a double movement, my opinion is that the penalty was the correct decision.
Seeing as you apparently read the rule book (fair play to you) maybe you'd like to explain to us mere mortals here what exactly the scrum might have been for? It's my understanding that as the ball isn't held up, and there's no doubt about that fact after watching the TMO, there's no reason for a scrum.
I've been playing rugby for close on 20yrs, so pardon me if I don't go splitting hairs or googling rules in order to have an informed opinion.
They were out of the field of play were they? Fine so, the point of the situation doesn't really change though does it? The tackler is under no obligation to release the tackled player and the ball may not be played on the ground. As Morrison doesn't hold up the ball, but simply hangs on to Bowe forcing a double movement, my opinion is that the penalty was the correct decision.
Seeing as you apparently read the rule book (fair play to you) maybe you'd like to explain to us mere mortals here what exactly the scrum might have been for? It's my understanding that as the ball isn't held up, and there's no doubt about that fact after watching the TMO, there's no reason for a scrum.
mattyp March 12, 2012 11:40 pm
"Seeing as you apparently read the rule book (fair play to you) maybe you'd like to explain to us mere mortals here what exactly the scrum might have been for? It's my understanding that as the ball isn't held up, and there's no doubt about that fact after watching the TMO, there's no reason for a scrum."
Held up in the ingoal. Refs generally blow that up very quickly, not allowing a struggle in the ingoal. Since he didn't blow it up for that, I think that it probably should have been a try.
Held up in the ingoal. Refs generally blow that up very quickly, not allowing a struggle in the ingoal. Since he didn't blow it up for that, I think that it probably should have been a try.
Full Back March 12, 2012 11:49 pm
..more out than in when he was tackled, you're not allowed wiggle your way into the in goal area, and even so the ball remains in the field of play until Bowe forces it in...the ball has to be in the in goal area before you can consider it held up.
I'm an Irishman by the way...no reason to not want a try here, but I think it was a fair decision
I'm an Irishman by the way...no reason to not want a try here, but I think it was a fair decision
Full Back March 12, 2012 11:17 pm
oh and while you're at it oh informed one, you wouldn't mind letting me know why every single player doesn't run under the posts once they cross the try line? I mean if they can't be tackled it's a complete mystery as to why they'd touch down out wide. I wouldn't want to go pretending that I know anything about anything, it's much more likely that every single player just couldn't be bothered to read the rule book...if only they knew what you know huh? ;)
mattyp March 12, 2012 11:32 pm
Fullback - ok, bit harsh, sorry, but I took the time to check, you didn't. I make the effort to get it right and check, and so I get pissed off when people disagree that couldn't be bothered to check themselves.
Talking about a "tackle" in the context of section 15 of the law book:
"15.1 WHERE CAN A TACKLE TAKE PLACE
A tackle can only take place in the field of play."
If you "tackle" someone - as in grab them and bring them to ground -in-goal, the rest of section 15 doesn't apply (e.g., requirement of tackler to release, etc.) so it's not a "tackle" for purposes of the law book. I doesn't mean an attacking player with the ball in the ingoal area can't be touched. Or did your wink mean that you're taking the piss and that you knew that?
Look, I know a lot of players (and commentators) can't be bothered to inform themselves about the laws of the game, but that doesn't make them right, does it?
Talking about a "tackle" in the context of section 15 of the law book:
"15.1 WHERE CAN A TACKLE TAKE PLACE
A tackle can only take place in the field of play."
If you "tackle" someone - as in grab them and bring them to ground -in-goal, the rest of section 15 doesn't apply (e.g., requirement of tackler to release, etc.) so it's not a "tackle" for purposes of the law book. I doesn't mean an attacking player with the ball in the ingoal area can't be touched. Or did your wink mean that you're taking the piss and that you knew that?
Look, I know a lot of players (and commentators) can't be bothered to inform themselves about the laws of the game, but that doesn't make them right, does it?
Full Back March 12, 2012 11:43 pm
@MattyP, of course I'm taking the piss.
The thing is that sometimes getting caught up in sections and letters of the law, people miss the point. Bowe was more out of the in goal area than in, Morrison tackled him and contested as is his right. The main infringement is Bowes double movement, he first goes one way then the other, it certainly doesn't look like there was any momentum carrying him over the line, and there was never a doubt on where the ball was. Ridiculous as it seems, if he had just pushed in one direction forcing Morrison to touch the ball he probably would have got the scrum.
My first reaction was that he was a bad decision, but on hearing (sky commentary during France England) that Morrison was under no obligation to release the player in the goal area it seems cut and dry really.
Anyway no hard feelings, it's all just a bit of craic here on the blog, no point in getting personal.
The thing is that sometimes getting caught up in sections and letters of the law, people miss the point. Bowe was more out of the in goal area than in, Morrison tackled him and contested as is his right. The main infringement is Bowes double movement, he first goes one way then the other, it certainly doesn't look like there was any momentum carrying him over the line, and there was never a doubt on where the ball was. Ridiculous as it seems, if he had just pushed in one direction forcing Morrison to touch the ball he probably would have got the scrum.
My first reaction was that he was a bad decision, but on hearing (sky commentary during France England) that Morrison was under no obligation to release the player in the goal area it seems cut and dry really.
Anyway no hard feelings, it's all just a bit of craic here on the blog, no point in getting personal.
Gordo March 12, 2012 8:56 pm
Sorry but where is this nuance about not having to release the tackled if you're in the in-goal? Only players on their feet can prevent a try by pulling the ball etc, and I can't find anything about an exception to the rule about releasing the tackled player?
(I'm just curious, by the way.)
(I'm just curious, by the way.)
No9scrum March 12, 2012 10:22 pm
I can't quote the laws of the game, lol but I could copy and paste them if I could find
It's real simple if you tackle someone over the goal line and then have to release him then it's a try every time. I can only make an educated gues as with everyone else that if it were the case that the same rules apply over the try line Otherwise we would never see a ref call a 5m scrum for being held up, instead we would have penalties for not releasing.
It's real simple if you tackle someone over the goal line and then have to release him then it's a try every time. I can only make an educated gues as with everyone else that if it were the case that the same rules apply over the try line Otherwise we would never see a ref call a 5m scrum for being held up, instead we would have penalties for not releasing.
Pretzel March 12, 2012 10:44 pm
Gordo, I can't point you in any directions, but I believe during the England France game the commentators said something about not having to release the player in the in goal area and how it is the only exception to the rule. Although I wasn't fully listening therefore I didn't catch exactly what they were talking about...
Gordo March 12, 2012 11:04 pm
Okay, I'm going to try and dig up exactly why as it's bugging me. (It'll come up and I like to know the actual rule etc). Thanks though.
@MattyP - nah, the in-goal is technically not Field of Play, it's part of the "Playing Area" but not the "Field of Play". Check out the definitions section of Law 1: http://www.irblaws.com/EN/laws/2/1/1/before-the-match/the-ground/definitions/#clause_1
@MattyP - nah, the in-goal is technically not Field of Play, it's part of the "Playing Area" but not the "Field of Play". Check out the definitions section of Law 1: http://www.irblaws.com/EN/laws/2/1/1/before-the-match/the-ground/definitions/#clause_1
Cluainoir March 11, 2012 6:52 pm
You are allowed to place the ball which is what Bowe did, i cannot see where there was a double movement.
Tullowtank March 11, 2012 6:54 pm
Hadn't questioned the decision but yes now I find it hard to understand why it wasn't a scrum? Bowe was over the line but was well held up? He shouldn't be punished for wrestling to ground the ball as if the ref had blown earlier to say he was held up the play would have finished?
None the less good first half, dire second half. Good game from omahoney but still would favour obrien coming in next week. Particularly as redden works much better with the backrow I could see him and ferris punching some holes next week. With England not having an out and out 7 either there's less of a need to play omahoney.
Well done to England for beating france today, should be a cracker next week but with the chance to beat the old enemy on paddys day I think Ireland will win. Tommy bowe to score two, he always gets over against England.
None the less good first half, dire second half. Good game from omahoney but still would favour obrien coming in next week. Particularly as redden works much better with the backrow I could see him and ferris punching some holes next week. With England not having an out and out 7 either there's less of a need to play omahoney.
Well done to England for beating france today, should be a cracker next week but with the chance to beat the old enemy on paddys day I think Ireland will win. Tommy bowe to score two, he always gets over against England.
Ronan March 11, 2012 7:20 pm
can anyone tell me what irelands game plan is with all the box kicks from rucks, we always loose possession but when we keep the ball in hand we make great ground.....
Cluainoir March 11, 2012 7:23 pm
Interesting also to hear Kidney after the game saying how Paddy O'Brien had agreed with him about some of the decisions Pearson had made during the game against France, that is penalties awarded against us that were not penalties and penalties that should have been awarded to us that weren't. There seems to be a perception amongst some international refs that its ok to treat the Irish as whipping boys who should not be allowed to beat some of the big boys.
Pretzel March 11, 2012 7:23 pm
I heard in todays game the commentators saying something about not having to release a player you tackle in the goal area. Unfortunately I was slightly distracted and therefore did not really pay attention, I assume it was in reference to this game.
I get that you are allowed to place the ball, but where do you draw the line on how "immediate" the ball was placed? I was under the impression that when you are tackled you have to immediately place the ball.. I know this is not "instant" but Bowe was held for a considerable amount of time..
I was shocked by Ireland giving away penalties. That totally let France back into the game last weekend, and they did it again yesterday! Was very disappointed with the Scottish performance, I felt everything good they have been doing recently went out the window and they went back to spilling the ball and looking poor. Ireland were very good at slowing the ball down. Can't understand why Donnacha Ryan (took injured POC's place?) hasn't been there instead of O'Callaghan, he was brilliant in the line-outs, he seemed to play a big part around the pitch, DOC seemed silent the entire game..
I get that you are allowed to place the ball, but where do you draw the line on how "immediate" the ball was placed? I was under the impression that when you are tackled you have to immediately place the ball.. I know this is not "instant" but Bowe was held for a considerable amount of time..
I was shocked by Ireland giving away penalties. That totally let France back into the game last weekend, and they did it again yesterday! Was very disappointed with the Scottish performance, I felt everything good they have been doing recently went out the window and they went back to spilling the ball and looking poor. Ireland were very good at slowing the ball down. Can't understand why Donnacha Ryan (took injured POC's place?) hasn't been there instead of O'Callaghan, he was brilliant in the line-outs, he seemed to play a big part around the pitch, DOC seemed silent the entire game..
No9scrum March 11, 2012 7:35 pm
Just thought I'd try and clear the air for you, you have one movement to place the ball after a tackle.
So you can get tackled then place the ball, then you can't touch it.
:)
So you can get tackled then place the ball, then you can't touch it.
:)
Pretzel March 11, 2012 9:04 pm
Thanks :)
I agree with your post at the start, I thought the no try decision was the correct way to go, and in all honesty I thought it was going to be a scrum to Ireland. Brilliant tackle and try saver though!
I agree with your post at the start, I thought the no try decision was the correct way to go, and in all honesty I thought it was going to be a scrum to Ireland. Brilliant tackle and try saver though!
Ando March 11, 2012 7:27 pm
Yeah my thought too - can't quite work out the Scotland penalty decision. I thought the ball was held up over the line, Ireland should have got a 5m scrum out of it.
redwan_ March 11, 2012 7:49 pm
Definitely double movement by Bowe. You have one attempt and Bowe first went one way and then the other, so double movement. Called it at the time and stick to it now. Good game though, Bowe is such a player, must be close to the 6 nations try record surely? Single-handedly keeping my fantasy league team away from last haha
mcquickscopez March 11, 2012 8:38 pm
hes on 5 , record is 6 in 6n i think and 8 in 5n
Reality March 11, 2012 8:20 pm
I really dislike Evans's adamant protest that he didn't touch Earls. I mean the goal-posts block the view on the replay so it's hard to see what happened to Earls's legs, but he obviously is tripped by something. Also, Evans clearly pulls his arm so his claim that he didn't touch him is obviously wrong. I just hate when players argue so vehemently that they didn't do anything when they obviously did. It makes players who actually are hard done by seem like they're just lying when they protest for genuine reasons. Like the boy who cried wolf.
Punisher March 11, 2012 8:36 pm
In my opinion it was a dive by earls, when you're in a foot race with someone off the ball like that it's natural to try and put your arms out to contest slightly, not grab them. Just didn't see anything happen with the feet to make him fall so hard.
Reality March 11, 2012 11:51 pm
Ah come on! You can put your arms out to contest, yes, but Earls had already sprinted past Evans, so that wasn't contesting, it was just interfering. And if you're absolutely sprinting at 100%, then if someone grabs your arm from behind that's bound to make you lose your balance a bit. Also, it looks to me that since Evans ran behind Earls, as Pretzel said, he 'accidentally' got his legs tangled with Earls's, and that's why Earls fell.
guest March 13, 2012 11:00 am
Earls is not a diver. . . His two ankles are clipped in towards eachother, if that happens anyone at full tilt they are gone! Ever see an ankle tap tackle!!??.
It's a pity, cos with his acceleration, Earls may well have scored.
It's a pity, cos with his acceleration, Earls may well have scored.
mcquickscopez March 11, 2012 8:40 pm
earls went down very very easy and im irish
brecor March 12, 2012 1:36 am
Earls was sprinting, Evans pulled his arm back while running laterally. Although it was a very slight pull, this unbalanced Earls and his left foot clipped his right. I highly doubt he dived as I think that he believed he would've got there first.
Pretzel March 11, 2012 9:09 pm
I think Earls may have gone down easily, but Evans was still in no position to protest his innocence. I think Evans may have try to slow Earls down with an arm but I think his leg (possibly unintentionally) knocked Earls leg, therefore Earls ended up tripping himself up...
Huh!! the 3rd March 12, 2012 3:47 am
Isn't Redden's try almost identical to the one he scored against them last year????
If memory serves there was confusion at a ruck, Scotland came out, 3 tacklers missed him and he went in beside the post.
Not learning your lessons Scotland.... tut tut.
If memory serves there was confusion at a ruck, Scotland came out, 3 tacklers missed him and he went in beside the post.
Not learning your lessons Scotland.... tut tut.
Canadian content March 12, 2012 4:33 am
I felt bowe should have been awarded the try. Morrison had everyright to hold him up, but bows also had a right to try and touch it down, I don't see how that's fair otherwise, I get a couple of chances to wrestle the ball away then must give up? Onlyother fair ruling is a 5 Metre attacking scrum becuz it took too long, which waste refs fault but not either players who were merely competing.
Full Back March 12, 2012 10:45 pm
You're not allowed a double movement with the ball, you either get it down as you fall or with the following movement, after that it's considered double so penalty to Scotland. Held up refers to the ball not the player, in this case Morrison didn't touch the ball and as he was in his own try area didn't have to release Bowe, so no reason for a scrum
Full Back March 12, 2012 11:56 pm
just to correct myself here before someone else does, held up is when the ball is over the tryline or the defender with one or more feet inside the in goal puts a hand to the ball forcing it out...phew! :D
ruckinmaul March 12, 2012 9:14 am
richie gray must be one of the largest rugby player nowadays, alongside andries bekker
stroudos March 12, 2012 11:19 am
Gray = 208cm (6'10), 125kg (19st 9)
Bekker = 208cm (6'10), 122 kg (19st 3)
Both freakishly massive - Bekker's freakish massiveness highlighted beautifully in this classic RD clip - http://www.rugbydump.com/2007/11/271/andries-bekker-tells-the-little-ones-to-settle-down. Well, in actual fact I think he's packed on quite a bit of muscle since then...
Bekker = 208cm (6'10), 122 kg (19st 3)
Both freakishly massive - Bekker's freakish massiveness highlighted beautifully in this classic RD clip - http://www.rugbydump.com/2007/11/271/andries-bekker-tells-the-little-ones-to-settle-down. Well, in actual fact I think he's packed on quite a bit of muscle since then...
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