Wales thrash England by record score to retain Six Nations title

Well done Wales. A deserved win. The game was finished at the first try. Wales were much smarter and physical in the end.
I'm still baffled by the way the game wasn't referee'd. I think England really suffered because of the shoddy exhibition of penalties between Wales and Scotland. The breakdown as a result was a free for all (which Wales won). Walsh turned a blind eye to so many things, side entry to rucks, handling after the ruck was formed. The first try came from a turnover that should have been a England penalty - side entry / straight to ground
I also think Davies was lucky to be on the pitch after taking Goode out, but that's with the benefit of a replay.
The scrums were 50 50, but Walsh seemed to give Wales the benefit of most decisions, even with a welsh player popping out first on most occasions. Jenkins never took the hit and jones scrummed at 45 degrees all day
I am clearly biased and a bit bitter (partly with England's showing) but the first 60 minutes were such a contrast in the way reffed that England's game plan disintegrated
Back to the drawing board, but well done Wales.

Very well said. A well deserved win, just a shame that the referee didn't make it more sporting.

Ben Youngs closed the gap repeatedly by running sideways (and please someone stop him kicking away possession), manu may as well not play, no ball is fed to the wing (Ashton got the ball passed to him only once on the wing). Players playing out of position in 7 and 8 shirts. Marler got bossed. Goode was boring and predictable.

Just massively uninspiring from many of the England boys, despite having some sterling defence.

The Welsh pack were hungry and their backs kept on hitting the lines. A well worked, well executed win.

It would be nice to get an unbiased ref next time though... And if various Welsh fans didn't unleash their hatred of the English.... That being said one of my favourite comments in the pub from a Welsh fan was "We should send Steve a Wales Rugby Shirt to say thank you"

Apologies, it was tipuric who took out Goode, not davies. Just re-watched the game and it was really quite cynical- wont change anything however - How to depress yourself twice in one day!

We were just so predictable. Wales out smarted Tuilagi and our back three. I think it goes without saying Ashton's place in the starting line up is gone. Not a single player could offer a go forward. Croft was exposed as the average player he is and our front row was blitzed.

Steve Welsh didn't help, but we can hardly blame such a scoreline on that.

If you think Croft is an average player, whoever you are, wherever you come from, you're clearly at least partially brain dead. However I have to agree with the Ashton thing, but I do have fears that somehow, we'll see him in the starting lineup once again come the summer.

surely if Ashton is in the starting lineup this summer that is a good thing, as it means he wasn't selected for The Lions!

Great runner of the ball, but drops off tackles and drops off rucks. The commentators seem to have a love affair with him so even when he plays shockingly he's credited as world class. Sorry, but he's not for me.

That was definitely a great game from Wales... Well done...
However I found the various bad comments on how the the was refereed by Mr. Walshs a little bit hard... I think he was pretty good... maybe people should have a look on how England vs France was refereed... (despite the fact France was the worst team during this 6N)

In my point of view, England didn't put enough physical engagement during the second half... they were definitely overpowered by Wales...

Also nice 6N from Italy and Scotland...

let see what will happen next year!

I'll tell you why Walsh gave so many 50-50 scrum decision to Wales: because Dan Cole kept bitching and moaning at him for the entire game.

Right or wrong, whatever level of the game, if you get on the ref's case like that he's going to give the benefit of doubt to the other team. In an area of the game where there's so much subjectivity involved you just can't afford to put him in that position.

*shakes head* sigh, so many games lost because of our mouthy scrum half...

I wonder if you can get a red card for hitting your own player?

We usually make our scrumhalf captain - best way to keep him on the pitch.

Well if that's the case then Walsh needs his head examined further. If a single player is being such a mouthy nuisance then you penalise the player and dish out cards or refuse to speak to them and only the captain. You're basically saying that Walsh made up calls to penalise cole for complaining to him. That's high school refereeing at best.
Perhaps robshaw should have been more forceful, but it's not unreasonable to suggest that if cole was persistantly complaining, then there was something underhand going on - ie Jenkins not taking the hit.

It's always a pleasure to see England side to loose a game and the nations like they did today

I dont see how you have to be such a dick about it, ye you guys were better way to go
hopefully you can put it together and beat a sh team finally

Ah ah, don't cry boy, just sit and cool down a bit. Even big boys in white could loose a game and a tournament this way...

I have to cry, it's good for the soul

Dominated

Nice Lucius. Always interesting to read dumb xenophobia on a rugby site! Idiot.

Anyway, Wales were superb, but I give the credit to their amazing defence which not only prevented scoring by England but ground them down until the tries eventually came. The Welsh front row must be up there in the world at the moment. They deserve the title.

In what way here his comments xenophobic? When a South Africa supporter or an Australian supporter is happy when the All Blacks lose a game they are not xenophobic simply for that sentiment.

Also (and NOT in a pissing match kind of way)... England made the Welsh from 3 look better than they are. Don't get me wrong, they are great, and with the qualifier "at the moment" i would agree only because the Springboks don't play test Rugby until later...

No problem about being like this. It's a game and I know there are plenty of people liking this defeat... just read all the posts on rugbydump. England simply get what they gave

Why were we so poor. Never got going and walsh just didnt help but to be honest Wales Halfpennyalways win Tuilagi was just battered by Roberts and Davies.
My lions team used to have lots of English but now nearly none
1. Healy
2. Best
3. Jones
4. Parling
5. Ryan
6. Warburton
7.Tipuric
8. Morgan / Robshaw

9.Laidlaw
10. Sexton
11. Visser
12. Roberts
13. North
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny

16. Rees
17. Corbisiero
18. Jenkins not sure if he can play TH
19. Launchbury
20. Brown / O'Brien
21. Phillips
22. Biggar
23. Hogg

Other players in there O driscoll , T youngs , Croft , Scott , Zebo , Kearney, Farrell , Beattie

I would still keep a fair few english lads in there. Despite the loss there are still plenty of bright sparks.


1) Jenkins
2) Best
3) Jones
4) Parling
5) Hamilton
6) Tipuric
7) Waburton
8) Morgan

9) Youngs
10) Sexton
11) Cuthbert
12) Tuilagi
13) Davies
14) Hogg
15) Halfpenny

16) M Vunipola
17) Hartley
18) A W Jones
19) Robshaw
20) Care
21) Farrell
22) Cuthbert

I know he is good but you can't have cuthbert twice

oops, didnt even notice :O

Cuthbert's not even that good. Sorry if that sounds churlish after yesterday, but while he excels at catching a soft pass and sprinting over the line, he offers very little else. But yeah, sometimes that's enough anyway!

Interesting point of view I personally feel he is actual the best winger I the southern hemisphere I actually think its better than george north. Just in the right place every time to score a try. One good thing is atleast we have some talent on the wings to pick from.

Not sure whether your comment carries much credit Fatprop... especially as you appear to not know which hemisphere is which :P

Didnt realise when I wrote it so I will now say that he is the best northern hemisphere winger I clearly do not believe he is better than gear savea ranger jane habana and Jp Peterson
But I dont rate north as high as most commentators or pundits

Stroudos, perhaps its the hype that has surrounded them, but I have found both North and Cuthbert to appear very average. Maybe they've been chaperoned and just haven't had the space, but there was talk of them being like a NH version of a Lomu etc, I certainly have seen very little evidence of their impact.

I think even Bananaman made a bigger impact than them..

A few times in the past year Wales have used North very effectively as a strike runner off set pieces. I think someone on here was talking about playing him at centre- don't know what his passing's like but as a crashball option might not be a bad idea.

Haven't seen Cuthbert play that role but something tells me he'd be very predictable.

Hey Guys,
I find it hard to believe that everybody is saying that Scotland played destructive Rugby etc. because Wales were by far the most boring team this 6 Nations! (last game excluded) The Ireland game (lost), the France game(bad conditions/mainly kicks), the Scotland game(ruined by Joubert) and Italy game (also ruined by bad conditions) were all incredibly dull. No doubt Wales have a good team but some players are very hyped to say the least. Cuthbert for example did not show any other skill than take an easy pass and jump one meter over the line. Also George North failed to make the impact he did last Season. Faletau had no impact on any game and was ineffective as a carrier. Lee Halfpenny has been an outstanding player all Six Nations but is he really what we want on the hard pitches in Australia? I feel that he benefits from sluggish wet conditions where he can kick the way he does (brilliantly), he is solid under the high ball but he has not got much flair in the attack game. To bring some alternatives for the mentioned players I feel that Maitland showed he is a highly skilled Nr. 14 that really understands the game and he is incredibly good in the defence! Also he played most of his career in Super Rugby and he knows the SH Game better than any other player contending for the Lions. Tim Visser showed incredible pace although he also had some deficiencies in defence. Stuart Hogg is a no brainer for the fast pitches in Australia where he will relish in contest with the Australian back three. Also I'd like to mention Kelly Brown who had a monstrous 6 Nations and showed his skills as a leader!

1) Jenkins
2)Best
3)Jones
4)Parling
5)Hamilton
6)Tipuric
7)Warburton
8)Robshaw

9)Youngs
10)Sexton
11)Visser
12)Roberts
13)Tuilagi
14)Maitland
15)Hogg

16)Vunipola
17)Hibbard
18)Gray
19)Brown
20)Murray
21)Farrell
22)North

have u seen Hogg recently? He'll be watching the lions on television

Disagree, he came back from making a mistake to playing a decent game vs France with nice ground making runs while Halfpenny just kicks brilliantly and runs into opposition by default. I think thats what you may call "destructive Rugby".
Whats needed in Australia is a fast runner that scores great tries, are you denying Hogg one of the best intercept tries ever? Also he has been decent in defense but for a bad tackle on Fofana. As good as Halfpenny played in bad conditions Hogg played well in good conditions (vs England / Italy).

North at 13? You must be sick in the head...hehehe

My gut feeling: the Lions tour down under is going to be lost because of this result. A lot of the Welsh boys are going to be selected after today and since they (as a team) only reach this level of intensity against England, the outcome in Australia seems pretty clear.

England definitely not peaking yet. Might be a blessing in disguise for them, this one will hurt for a long time.

This coming from a neutral perspective.

Pardon but your not much of a rugby fan because when was the last time England actually beat Australia .
Wales have beat Australia and should have out there let's be honest they out scored the wallabies on tries and to be fair to them they even lost there coach a few week's on departing down under .

Statistics count for nothing. I'm talking about intensity, that's definitely higher in matches against England.

I disagree totally what makes it so special because of England ?
Wales suffered in the 1990's due to the WRU not making changes to the structure of the game in Wales leaving the 1st 15 and 2nd 15 and most of the 3rd 15 going to rugby league , the players had a meeting with the WRU to change the game and system they wouldn't so great players like Johnathan Davies and John Devroux left to go professional .
Instead of changing the game the WRU would sack the coach , so after 12 years of humiliating defeats the WRU finally invited an Australian named David Moffet to change the game here and he did even sacking and getting rid of the men who employed him he got Wales back where they belong .
FairPlay to England they changed there whole system but before they did they couldn't beat Wales at Cardiff and even losing most games to Wales but things were going to change has Wales went down hill fast due to the welsh rugby union(WRU) England went from a poor team in the 1980's to a world class outfit in the 1990's and a good side they are too but Wales are back and unless you know the history you can only go like from England's great w/c triumph which was great .
What i'am saying is Wales also had a great rugby team but due to the WRU they went backwards but it's great to see the Welsh back and we don't think of England has NZ or Australia or South Africa because I would rather beat them , why we were so happy was we won the 6 nations for the 2nd time running and it's great to see them back and what you got too understand England have only been a great side since the 1990's before that thy were a good side but they are now a great side they beat NZ didn't they and well too great result .

You have successfully written a really long, very boring and partially incomprehensible rant about a subject almost completely unconnected to the OP. But well done on your history, I am very glad you shared that with us.

I don't understand your point.

"when was the last time England actually beat Australia ." In 2010.
"Wales have beat Australia" Yes, last time in 2008.

Have I missed something?

You have to pardon me i was replying to someone else ! "

I'm not Welsh, nor a Welsh supporter, but apparently I'm the only one that felt Walshs' refereeing was pretty good...

He penalised Warburton for hands in the ruck (which Brian Moore picked up on)... he didn't penalise Ashton (?) for use of the boot which looked a bit excessive, but in some ways "old school", which I am fine with..

I thought the game flowed fairly well.

Tipuric didn't deserve a penalty for taking out Goode as someone claimed, I thought there was minimal contact which was milked.

..to me it just looked like Wales dominated early on, and Englands brilliant defence held, but perhaps the pressure of the attacks was too much, and the tired Englisht team got outclassed in the latter stages of the match by some more experienced Welsh players...

Have to add that I thought Tipuric was my Welsh MOTM, and Vunipola was my English MOTM he was a man possessed!

I'm surprised by the amount of comments about Walsh, I'm really not a fan of his refereeing style but genuinely thought he had a good game and that's not because I'm Welsh.

I'm a back so maybe I'm not the most qualified when it comes to refereeing the scrum but he seemed consistent there too.

Brian Moore would have been the first person to complain and he would have complained loud enough and long enough if there was any unfairness there. I could be wrong but from memory I don't remember him picking up on anything during the match.

I want to give full credit to wales before I talk about the refereeing at the scrum and breakdown. They were fantastic and completely out-played england. They were more switched on and played the referee. They noticed the areas that walsh wouldn't referee and the ones that he would and played according to that. The welsh back row completely dominated the English back row. Tipuric is well on his way to being a world class number 7 and I hope that wales play him there more often. This game was won by the forwards.

The scrum has changed a lot since moore played and he isn't up to date with most of the rules. There are occasions when he'll be moaning and it's because a rule has changed or times when he just misses what is going on.

At the scrum, Walsh was penalising England nearly every scrum because England were either 'collapsing it' or 'coming up'. This was not the right decision. He (incorrectly) assumed that because England's pack were inexperienced they were being dominated, but the domination came through cheating. Jenkins wouldn't take the hit and Jones would either bore in (or even just scrum at a massive angle) or lift up. Both of these are illegal and just lead to a collapsed scrum or the front row lifting up. But if you aren't getting caught, why obey the laws?

Something that no referees pick up on either is the early push. I'm all for big hits on the 'set' but then teams start pushing before the ball is in and so scrum halves will delay the put in. Walsh would then penalise Youngs but the scrum wasn't stationary.

Walsh's refereeing of the breakdown was non-existent. Wales were more clued up to this and realised they would not be penalised for things much sooner than England did (eg not through the gate, offside, hands in etc).

I can't shake the feeling that he always tries to make games a spectacle of his refereeing as opposed to the 30 guys on the pitch.

Well done Wales. Played the conditions and referee and dominated.

Actually now you mention it luke, i did notice Wales not taking the hit a couple times, and England getting penalised. One in particular, England hit Wales and Wales went back and the entire English pack hit the deck, and they were penalised for collapsing the scrum, so that was harsh!

Then there was England not putting the ball in quick enough as Wales drove them back. The ruck though was something I felt was fine... Moore mentioned Tipuric stealing the ball like McCaw does, something we all say is offside. Um, Walsh did penalise a couple players for coming in at the side, and I definitely remember Warburton getting penalised for hands...

To be honest I agree with everything you say.

On the most basic level it was the difference between playing to the rule book and playing to the referee's interpretation of the rule book which is what Wales did.

I know that the referees receive guidance on how to interpret the rules by the IRB but if you have 50 different international referees receiving the same guidance then you're going to end up with different interpretations of that guidance.

There isn't a team on the planet who understands that more than the All Blacks and that is one of the reasons that they are so good.

I'm really not a fan of Walsh but I'd be amazed if he was judging decisions on the experience of the players although I do I think much of it was down to behaviour.

You only had to look at the behaviour of both packs to see the difference, the Welsh pack always looked confident, always looked like they deserved to be winning the decisions and they were vocal about the where they believed England were going wrong.

I haven't referred but that combined with the fact that the England didn't seem to gain ascendency once just means they read and controlled Walsh better.

Again, I'm not a forward but from the people I know who are, including English players, they Wales just played the way that good packs do, they played that they were in and learnt from the opposition and officials as they played.

Some people call it "the dark arts" but I just think of it as common sense.

I believe he called Walsh's refereeing of the set piece "a farce" at one point - did you miss that? These terrible pitches that cut up don't help - are ground staff under instruction to make the pitches sodden in order to favour one team or the other?

It's possible that he did what you say, we have watched it twice (I'm sure nobody would blame us) but didn't pick that up on him saying that.

I'm not doubting that he did say it as it's easy enough to miss something that brief but I do struggle to believe that if Moore had thought that Walsh's decision making was a "farce" that he would have only mentioned it once.

If you know when it happened I'd be interested to watch it as it'll be interesting to hear the context it was said in?

He does however say with about 5 minutes to go, and I'm quoting him directly here:
"This whole sequence thing which has bedevilled this Six Nations is a farce. It's ridiculous. The sequence of calling makes no difference at all to what happens in the scrum".

That's no criticism of Walsh but a criticism the current scrum sequence with I think most people would agree with.

The only time I noticed him saying something almost negative about Walsh is the incident where he repeatedly had to tell the English front row to stand on his mark. I think he had to warn them three times?

He does at many other scrums & breakdowns heavily criticise England for a lack of interest and praise Wales for their technical ability, tempo and heart.

In reference to the pitch, as with any stadium with a roof it does retain water when the roof is closed. However both management teams knew that and chose to have a closed roof and damp pitch.

It seems that both coaching teams had prepared as much as they could for it as there was relatively few incidents of slipping shown during the scrum.

The WRU are considering fitting an artificial pitch over the next 12 months so those issues could be replaced by others.

Calon perhaps thats why I didn't see a problem; because Mr Moore wasn't yelling into the mic about atrocious decisions... :/ As you said, he'd certainly be loud enough.

Let's be honest, if he thought that was happening in any game let alone where England are playing for a Grand Slam we would have all heard about it.

Even if he thought one scrum went fine he would have still mentioned all the issues with the others.

It's a bit early but I've not seen any criticism of his game from anybody involved in the match, any of the commentators or the "experts" involved in the Scrum V Forum afterwards (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01rjllz/Six_Nations_Rugby_2013_Forum_Red_Button_(16_03_13)/) although there are plenty from understandably disappointed fans.

It's certainly not an english thing because if you put ANY other two teams into a match like that it's always an easy target.

No referee is going to get 100% because they're as human as we are which means they make mistakes just like we do. We've all had decisions go our way which probably should and vice versa.

As a player, irrelevant of what decision the referee has made that decision is a fact and won't change and it's not your job to correct them. You have your own job to do and if you don't do it you're putting your team at a disadvantage.

In all honestly I was really worried when I found out Walsh was refereeing but I genuinely felt that he had a decent game.

I think that as a Welsh rugby player but I also think it as a big rugby fan who likes watching exciting, well refereed rugby which ever teams are playing.

Walsh made a couple of questionable decisions on the early scrums. Dan Cole made the classic mistake of actually questioning them.

From what I saw, Cole seemed to whingeing at Walsh throughout the entire match. When you do that, unfortunately the ref is going to give the benefit of the doubt to the opposition. I'm not sure it's done consciously or not, but personally I have no problem with it and I hope the pattern continues until players learn not to bitch and moan at the officials like their roundball fetishist cousins.

I think if England had put a try in before Wales, the story could have been much different. Sadly when we started to lose the contest at the breakdown, and once the momentum built up for Wales after 50 mins then it was game over.
We definitely got on the wrong side of Steve Welsh...I mean Walsh...early on, but that being said our scrum was nowhere.
Wales deserved every inch of that victory, it was a complete performance. I couldn't be more gutted.

I have to say, the English rugby supporters are some of the most magnanimous in defeat, I take my hats off to you guys. Much better than any of us celts. Saying that, Tipuric being yellow carded is a farce, don't really know what you saw Tc. Adam Jones is the one and only reason for us winning by that margin, let alone winning at all. Without him, Wales are in big trouble and we know it. All in all, Wales can consistently play well in the northern hemisphere but the hope of us doing well in the Southern Hemisphere is still a dream in my eyes. We are solid but predictable and unimaginative. Without trying to insight argument, we play like England did in their pomp. Strong but no flair. We have to grind out victories. England's defence was absolutely superb, better than ours but in the end, you can't tackle all day long, no matter how tough and fit you are. So hoorah to the taffies, I've rubbed it in the faces of my friends as they always do it to me, I'm gonna get it bad next time Wales loose.

Agree with the Adam Jones comment. He was immense, as always. I have to say though, I do not think he'd have had so much success against a fit Alex Corbisiero.

Typical English whining here. England missed kickable goals, blew a try early in the game, and did anyone notice #21 Care's matador defense to get the Welsh rolling on their second try? And how about contesting at the ruck ball? If Wales had started the pick and drive earlier in the game, the score would have been even worse. Scrummaging has been a messy lottery of penalties throughout the Six Nations, so stop blaming Walsh.

A messy lottery of penalties where England earned 1 scrum penalty and the welsh got 6 pens + 4 free kicks. The welsh scrum wasn't dominant enough to earn that high a proportion. Jones has a tendancy to scrum at 45 degrees and jenkins was non existant at the hit. i think marler dropped one and walsh had a bee in his bonnet with youngs, even though he was set and still way before the welsh 3. But he allowed the welsh early driving and then penalised England for it, penalised England when cole drove jones back 5 yards
It made a massive difference in field position and turnovers. Still wouldnt have won, however

I really don't think there's much whining, nor any typical whining.

congrats wales too bad they didnt have the boot back in the rwc semifinals

Following up on other comments re the Lions tour. The standard of Aus. rugby in the Super 15 so far has mostly ranged from average to dire, and as with last year the comparison with the NZ derby clashes in particular is stark. But the national side so often seems to rise above expectations and if Oz can get players like Genia, Beale and O'Connor into form and with a very mobile pack (even without Pocock), I think the Lions might struggle.

To be honest Wales should have hammered the wallabies last time down under the out scored them in tries but losing there coach didn't help to be honest I think the lions will hammer them .
When England beat NZ I said Welldone too England but I didn't expect sour grapes from there fans because all the English boys I know are good guys it's that small majority it is rugby not football .

Quite funny that some England supporters think their scrum would have been on top had Walsh not been in charge. Adam Jones is a class apart and the best scrummaging TH playing the game. England, as always, get built up as world beaters. They're a young developing side with a good coaching team, but Wales got the selection and tactics spot on. Tuilagi got shown up for the one-trick pony that he is. He needs to work on his distribution. Best game of the 6N, but the down side is the motivation England will have for revenge at Twickenham next year.

yes adam jones is very good but we also didn't have our first choice loosehead all six nations, corbisiero is such a good scrummager, he gave jannie du plessis the worst time i've seen in a while and was a big reason we drew in south africa, beat new zealand, should have beat south africa in the autumn and smashed ireland at twickenham ,dont mistake me you guys were great it just sucks not having a player that maybe could have made the scrums even, however I dont agree on tuilagi, it's not like there was any space to distribute with how wales were defending, he can definitly distirbute that was evident against new zealand and also when he made that break against south africa in the autumn

Yes!! Someone who recognises the phenomenal talent of Corbisiero! Most under-rated player ever. England's scrum is a totally different proposition when he plays. A real shame he was unavailable.

Nice to see a sensible opinion on Tuilagi too.

I think Brian Moore is a pretty good judge of when Penalties are correct or otherwise in the scrums, and he didn't seem to argue with many of them. Pushing before the ball is in can be 50/50 since the scrum half sometimes buys a free kick by delaying the put-in.

Neither side was penalised for early shove, so there was nothing to stop England trying it. More significant was that Marler was on a hiding from the first scrum, which set the tone.

As for a penalty for side entry prior to the first try? - The ruck wasn't formed because the England support players arrived too late - a problem for them all game.

Walsh penalised Robshaw (who I thought still shone for England) and then Warburton for the same offences in the first half.

More of a problem for England was the 'one out' pass which is designed to take the ball carriers wider, but made it harder for them to retain the ball.

I thought Clive Woodward was right when he felt that had England had the opportunities the Welsh had they would not have taken them.

England weren't bad - they competed well, but execution was the difference.

Once a tackle is made you have to enter via the gate. They change the rule a couple of years ago. Even the tackler has to re-enter the gate these days, so coming in at 45 degrees should be a penalty regardless of whether the ruck has properly formed

I thought the tackler can come in froma any side as long as the ruck is not (properly) formed. Since there is no ruck as long as it's not formed, there is no gate either.

Well played Wales.
It was an enjoyable match to watch and a positive conclusion to a quite dire 6N.

In the 1st half, it was a real tight contest between both sides enjoying runs from every part of the pitch. but slowly but surely, Wales took the advantage at the breakdown and in the scrum.
i'm quite astonished to read english fans questioning Walsh performance. English were penalised in the scrum because they weren't good at binding and Marler had a nightmare vs Jones... isn't it why lancaster replaced him quickly with vunipola?

Really impressed by the welsh backrow, especially Tipuric who really recalls me Olivier Magne: a mix of speed, nosy and skilled player. Their back monsters also made the difference, particularly Roberts runs.

all is no black for england, but they should stop to think that their all blacks momentum will "inspire" them. each match has its problematic... the english medias jingo certainly echoes didn't help them in the game approach
guys like Robshaw, Farrell, Woods are becoming true leaders, but lancaster should make evolve their one dimensional attacking strategy. Tuilagi's "no pass" match is the perfect example.

The RWC is still far away, and all can change in 2 years. time will say if this Wales victory was a future sign of domination or a "we hate the english" win.

I agree about Tuilagi. The bloke is a battering ram with no brains or guile. When he comes up against his physical match, he's completely ineffective. That really sums up England's back line - workmanlike but with no creativity.

i disagree on the physical match part, tuilagi doesn't have a match at centre physically, roberts tackled him well in this game, but last year at twickenham roberts got smashed around the park
englands backline is workman but reality is it could be very special
they haven't been picking for creativity they've been picking on defensive ability
if they put brown at 15, bring in christian wade and marlon yarde on the wings get rid of the zero attack barritt and put in tweletrees theres no doubt that's a very good attacking line, and if they aren't happy with farrell they could bring in either freddie burns or george ford

England bottled it and Wales played with confidence. Lancaster said at the end that he didn't think that the loss had any "psychological" element to it - methinks he is in denial.

They were edgy against Italy and carried on the same attitude against Wales; the weight of expectation was too much for them (they looked uncannily like Wales during the first half against Ireland).

I don't know what game plan England had but, whatever it was, it wasn't adhered to because headless chickens would have been more composed than England.

Oh, and well done Wales!

Only one reason England lost last night and that is experience or lack of it. Unlucky England, Well done Wales. England wont panic about that result, Lancaster knows he is building towards something.

My one issue with Wales is yes they can play at home in front of a there own partizan crowd. BUT why can't they compete against the SH 3. Someone tell me the last time they beat one of the SH 3? Because I cant remember?

that's exactly why I still rate england as a better side overall than wales, there's no question that wales was better than england that day or that it was the best showing by any team in the six nations but if you cant beat the sh big 3 let alone argentina what does it count for?

Am I the only one not convinced by either England or Wales? In England's case, if you take away their victory over the All Blacks, what have they done? In Wales's case, if you take away their victory over England, what have they done? We see this every second year with Wales: they win the Six Nations, suddenly they're the best team in the world and are going to beat the All Blacks and set the world alight, and then they get brought back to reality very quickly. If this is going to be a Welsh and English-heavy Lions tour, then I'm not actually at all confident that they'll win. Wales played an Australia team in disarray a bunch of times last year and lost every time.

Having said that though, it's not like Ireland or Scotland offer anything better.

LIONS TEAM:
15 Halfpenny
14 Cuthbert
13 O'Driscoll
12 Roberts
11 North
10 Sexton
9 Phillips
1 Healy
2 Best
3 Jones
4 Hamilton
5 Gray (if not fit the Lachenbury or Ryan)
6 Warburton (captain)
7 Tipuric
8 O'Brien

this is my preferred england side if I was GM (NoT LIONS)

like clive woodward says you pick a team to attack then teach them to defend

15 m brown
14 c wade
13 m tuilagi
12 b twelvetrees
11 m yarde
10 o farrell
9 b youngs
8 b morgan
7 c robshaw
6 t wood
5 g parling
4 j launchbury
3 d cole
2 t youngs
1 a corbisiero

16 d hartley 17 m vunipola 18 j haskel/ b vunipola 19 c lawes 20 d wilson 21 a goode 22 f burns 23 d care

I honestly feel marler, croft, flood, ashton and barritt are no longer good enough to be in the squad and if b vunipola proves hes better then haskell on the argentina tour there might no longer be a play for him too, it would be cool to hear some feed back, no doubt the welsh will shit on this post

Does no one remember that Croft just had his first start after breaking his neck?! He is out and out the most naturally talented back rower that England has to their disposal, at his best a world beater, but you can't say he's no longer good enough after one shoddy performance. Don't forget he's already been on a Lions tour and scored 2 tries in his first start for them against south africa. With regard to your other choices, agree about ashton and barritt, flood is certainly winding down but for the moment allows for a different style of play, marler hasnt been disastrous, nothing special but more stamina than vunipola, also i think corbisiero is gonna have long term trouble with this injury making him a tricky one. i have high hopes for b vunipola, hope thats what you were looking for (minus the rant about croft)

Again I disagree about croft great player and is possibly the best 6 in the NH at his best.
My england team
15. Foden
14. Wade
13. Joseph
12. Twelvetrees
11. May
10. Burns
9. Care

8. Morgan
7. Robshaw
6. Croft
5.Launchbury
4. Parling
3. Cole
2. Hartley
1. Corbisiero


16. Youngs
17. Vunipola
18. Wilson
19. Lawes
19. B Vunipola / Fraser
20. Woods
21. Care
22. Farrell
23. Banahan

Reasons for my team very fast with Wade and May on either wing Foden also like a winger. Joseph can find little gaps my half backs play high and keep on the defensive line 12 can pass. My bench has all the power B vunipola and Banahan can play both centres and wing playing well
Barritt could still get in and tuilagi but no ashton utterly uselss waste of space

Vunipola has already proved he's better than Haskell at Wasps.

I know what you're saying about him and his ability to attack and compete in the lineout but I just dont find hes good enough to compete with other backrowers at the breakdown, I feel it hurts england but you very well might be right i dont claim to know it all

also Corbisiero has had trouble with his knee but I'm optimistic with his surgery that he's going to come back able to play well again

Whilst its true that he's no master of the breakdown, he's by no means bad at it, he just adds a completely different attacking angle which no other player that ive seen, so granted theres an out and out 7 (which robshaw seems to be getting to) playing along side him i shouldn't think its too much of a problem in that regard. Regardless of either of our opinions, it speaks volumes that Lancaster chose him to start given how little playing time he's had since he came back, he may not have the ability to turn the ball over but i put him in that category of 'freak of nature' for some of the things he's pulled off over the years.

you got the freak of nature part right, when I watched that england france game in france I didn't see that croft try coming at all

I though Steve Walsh refed the game superbly. England were mentally and physically dominated!

What England learned today was to Fear the Welsh. Roll on Twickenham 2015

i dont think we fear the welsh, respect is probably closer to the point, I think you guys did us a favor exposing our lack of attack in the back line, because we dont have big quick brutes on the wings lancaster will more likely select the slight, explosively fast creative backs, and we all know that wales falls apart when they have to deal with explosive, slight and agile backs, all the proof is there, look how you got fucked by ireland, argentina, australia and new zealand

After Saturday I Think that these 30 payers will go to Aus.
1) Jenkins/Healy
2)Best/
3)Cole/Jones
4)Wyn-Jones/Coombs
5)Launchberry/ Gray
6)Wood/O'Brian
7)Warburton/ Tipuric
8)Falatau/ Heaslip
9)Phillips/Youngs
10)Farrell/Sexton
11)North/Bowe
12)Roberts/Barrit- Barrit very underated player
13)Tuilagi/O'Drisscoll
14)Cuthbert/Maitland- Maitland was one of the highest scoring wingers in super rugby for a long time.. He knows how to find the try line and with the players he could have inside him on a lions tour could prove a game changer.
15) Halfpenny/Goode- Despite Saturdays performance his positional play is awesome.

I feel the need to address some of the points that many England fans feel compelled to complaining about:

Walsh and his refereeing:

At the end of the day, both teams have people analysing the opposition prior to each game. In the same vein the Welsh this year analysed how the referee interprets the game. Walsh was consistent with his refereeing, Wales just did their homework. In regards to the scrum, once a team is in the ascendency, the referee will likely award the stronger scrum penalties. Wales decimated a few English scrummages, and from there on in the dye was cast. Not necessarily correct, but it is how the game is going.

Adam Jones's scrummaging technique:
Over the course of the six nations, Jones and Hibbard have targeted the opposition hooker with the aim to make him slip his binds with the loosehead, and splinter the opposition scrum. This is why it looks like Jones is at a 45 degree angle when the scrum breaks down. The hooker has simply lost his bind with the loosehead, and Jones has gone into the gap as the loosehead is no longer directly infront of him. Hence why when the scrums have broken down in the past few games for Wales, the entire welsh tight 5 is still bound, yet the opposition isn't.

Ken Owens offside at ruck for first try:
Assuming that Ken Owens was offside and Wales benefitted from a try, think about Vunipola being offside for Tuilagi's try against France. These things even themselves out.

It is such a shame that many English fans cannot lose with grace. No team is unbeatable, and all players can have a bad day. On Saturday we finally saw a full 80 minutes of good quality rugby from Wales (first time in a long time). Wales dominated the collision, set piece and maintained over 60% possession. Wales broke the gainline 42 times to Englands 19, Wales missed 7 tackles to Englands 17. England squandered two golden overlaps, whilst Wales were clinical and scored two crackers.

Unlucky England, well done Wales

Jumping onto the Lions squad selection bandwagon, here are my squad of 35 for the tour (37 were initially selected for the last tour):

Loosehead: Gethin Jenkins & Cian Healy
Hooker: Richard Hibbard, Rory Best & Tom Youngs
Tighthead: Adam Jones & Euan Murray
Lock: Alun-Wyn Jones, Joe Launchbury, Jim Hamilton & Ian Evans
Blindside Flanker: Sean O'Brien, Chris Robshaw
Openside Flanker: Sam Warburton, Justin Tipuric
Number 8: Toby Falatau, Jamie Heaslip & Ryan Jones (Utility player)

Scrum Half: Mike Phillips, Ben Youngs & Greg Laidlaw (Utility player)
Outside Half: Owen Farrell, Jonny Sexton
Centre: Jamie Roberts, Manu Tuilagi, Brian O'Driscoll, Jonathan Davies & Billy Twelvetrees
Wing: George North, Tim Visser & Alex Cuthbert
Fullback: Lee Halfpenny (Utility player), Rob Kearney, Stuart Hogg (Utility player) & Alex Goode (Utility player)

15 Welsh, 8 English, 7 Irish, 5 Scots.

I have listed 5 utility players in the squad. The reason for this is that on tour, versatile players are useful. We saw Nathan Hines cover the back 5 in the scrum on the last tour, and James Hook as a utility back.

Despite just missing out on the championship, England have a low number as there is a logjam at certain positions. At prop, Jenkins and Jones are currently in great form, and in addition to stand out performers Euan Murray and Cian Healey would leave no room for English props. In the back row, the English have lacked a specialist 8 since Morgan got injured. Robshaw deserves to go, but is not a pure 7. Tipuric and Warbuton are the only pure 7's so have to go. O'Brien is destructive as a ball carrier so must go as a 6. In the back 3, Hogg, Halfpenny, Goode, Kearney and North are all in form. Cuthbert and Visser will likely go as they have a knack of scoring.

Players in contention if healthy: Corbisiero (E), O'Connell (I), Gray (S), Lydiate (W), Bowe (I)

Can't fault brawnybalboas lions selection. Spot on got to be honest.

Cheers! To be honest I can see the Grandslam decider being used for player selection in very much the same way as the Munster v Ospreys Heineken Cup Quarterfinal in 2009. That day 15 (of 37) lions tourists O'Connell and Ryan Jones met as the two favourites for lions captaincy. Players like Quinlan and Earls played themselves into Lions contention, and Ryan Jones initially was not selected.

In the same manner Robshaw may have lost his captaincy to Warburton, Tipuric may have played himself into the Lions. Welsh players such as Warburton, AW Jones, Phillips, Roberts and Halfpenny likely overtook their English counterparts in the Lions pecking order, whilst players such as Jenkins and Jones may have pushed Cole and Marler out of the tour party all together.

I can see 3 English exiles as dark horses for the tournament: Wilkinson (especially with the lack of options at 10), Sheridan and Armitage.

was this rugby ? ... looked like soccer lol kidding good job wales

The english keep whining while us Welsh keep smiling. well done boys your country is proud of you. Farrel instead of Edwards as defence coach for Lions is a big mistake as Saturday proved.

To suggest that England are a better team than wales is completely unsubstantiated. Wales have won back to back championships, reached the semifinals of the world cup (losing narrowly and unfairly with 24 men to en inferior french side), and have secured 3 grand slams in under a decade. Man for man the welsh possess players of true world class ability and beat northern hemisphere teams when playing under par. They blow off them off the park on a good day. But I think your right Dave in that we need to start beating the southern hemisphere sides regularly. We have a psychological inferiority complex against them which the English overcame when winning in 2003. They do not get fazed by the sh 3, they're usually just not good enough man for man. With wales they haven't broken the psychological barriers yet but they more than arch up man for man. Another reason for their lack of success against them is that the northern hemisphere default mode is a structured, slower, and less inventive game. Wales struggle to adjust to the different approach offered by the sh3, and they need to play with more confidence in their own creative and attacking game. But the results pages will show that wales are a more successful and potent team than England by some margin over the past 5 years or so. But England are a young, up and coming side with a good base of players and a shrewd coaching setup. They may well dislodge wales as the dominant northern hemisphere team in the near future and possibly in time for world cup 2015.

Sorry the post should have read 14 men agaisnt France. Also wales more than "match" up against the Southern hemisphere sides man for man. Not "arch" up. That would be disturbing!

stop deluding yourself, the welsh cant beat any of the southern hemisphere sides...not even argentina, don't even dare mention the other 3, you're setting yourself up for heart break for when your team gets stomped out in the autumn

OMG so many scrum experts on here. England should start recruiting scrum coaches from this site!
Please could the English stop bitching about the referee and the scrums. Jesus guys, man up! If any of you have ever played rugby before you should know that you play according to the referee ie. You push the limits of what you'll get away with and keep at it. It's not Wales' fault that the English weren't street smart enough to compete with them. And anyway, has anyone ever seen a fairly contested scrum, ever? I don't think it exists.
Wales were by far the best team on the pitch and deserved to win! Too many English players exposed, Ashton especially! Rugby league boy that can't tackle - classic! And we saw the old boring English game plan of kick, kick and kick some more make a return... Shocking!
Well done to Wales! The only northern hemisphere team I support as I'm south african. And the reason for that is because Wales likes to "move it" and score tries!

well if you're south african shouldn't you cheer for england?
south africa doesn't score tries (like england) and plays some of the most boring rugby around
what wales does is foreign to you guys

Had to comment in response to criticism of Cuthbert. Yes his defence can be suspect (e.g. during that "pass into the future" during the Ireland game) but he is a top quality finisher. For his first try he had a lot to do, he gassed Brown and then fended him without breaking stride, not simply flop over the line as some say (just watch Browns face as he watches AC go over for the try, shame for him because until then he had a good game). He scored the Grand Slam try against France last year (again with a lot to do). The suggestion that Banahan had more impact on the wing blew my mind, that guy couldn't even run over Shane Williams from five meters out in the WC warm ups!

Not trying to rub anyones faces in it, but lets give the boy some credit!

I believe I was the one criticsing Cuthbert. Don't know about his defence (thought it was OK actually?). And I take nothing away from his twoi tries v England, which were well taken. If you're looking for someone to run hard and straight and guarateed to get over the whitewash from <20m out, Cuthbert is your man. And if you have enough creativity in midfield, that may be enough.

Areas of his game I'm not convinced on are ability to go round defenders, (going over isn't always an option), creative angles of running when coming in off the wing and, now that I think about it, yes I suppose his defensive positioning can be suspect.

Of course, he's a bloody lot better at rugby than I am.

Owen (Cheap Shot) Farrell was lucky to stay on the field following that swinging arm on George North just ahead of Biggars Drop Goal.

Someone needs to give that fella a slap.

Trying to keep a neutral prospective here. Heres how I view it. Ireland beat Wales, England beat Ireland. Has to be said Wales stood up to the occasion. Being honest, I had a gut feeling we would lose. Its the classic auld rivalry between Eng vs Wales. No one likes the English to win anything and whys that?

We are terrible winners and terrible losers, but always have the potential to dominate in excellence so any team that can beat us will always relish that. It was always going to be a battle, on this occasion Wales put us on the backfoot. Ashton needs to go I would've been happy to see some experience in that shirt maybe Cueto, C. Wade, Tom Varndell or even Anthony Watson from U20s squad.

We were missing Morgan for sure and we could simply not match the dominance upfront that Wales had. Wales 8 straight losses in a row and some of the worst performances I have ever seen. England beat the AB (Spare the Norovirius b*llocks) amongst giving SA a run for their money in the SA tour before beating every team to get to the 6N decider, so I call it even. However going forward Wales need to be consistent as England are and not just rise to the occasion because its a game being played against us. On this occasion, credit to Wales - they were Ace.

Roll on International Tests, 6N, WC

Is it me or does Richard Hibbard, the Welsh hooker, look like Ma'a Nonu's long lost albino twin?

He's a poor man's Dimitri Szarzewski.

My Lions squad

Tight head - Cian Healy, Gethin Jenkins
Hooker - Ross Ford, Rory Best
Loose Head - Adam Jones, Dan Cole
Lock - Alun-Wyn Jones (C), Launchbury, Gray, Ferris (if available) Parling, Ian Evans
Blindside Flanker - Lydiate (if available), O'Brian
Openside Flanker - Warburton, Chris Robshaw, Tipuric
No. 8 - Ben Morgan, Heaslip
Scrum Half - Conor Murray, Mike Phillips, Ben Youngs
Fly-Half - Sexton, Biggar
Wing - George North, Tommy Bowe (if available), Alex Cuthbert, Visser
Centre - O'Driscoll, Tuilagi, Roberts, Davies, Twelvetrees
Fullback - Halfpenny (without a doubt), Hogg, Kearney

Possible selection - David Denton, Hamilton, Maitland, Goode, Ashton, Tom Youngs, Tom Croft, Farrell, Faletau, Paul James, Zebo,

In with a shout - Pistorius (Cardiff no. 8) Freddie Burns (Gloucester Fly Half), Eli Walker (Ospreys Wing) Christian Wade (Wasps Wing), Eastmond (Bath Wing)

Ferris 'if available' at lock? Ferris is a 6 not a lock.

Wales outplayed England in every department. Best performance by a Welsh team in a long time. Now, moving on to the Lions selection. In my opinion, only four Lions places in the starting XV have been definitely allocated to date:

Mike Phillips
Adam Jones
Halfpenny
Owen Farrell

That's it.

That speaks wonders about your bias. It was not even slightly a 'take-out'. He went to charge him down as he was kicking the ball and followed through, knocking him down by his legs. It's hardly a 'take out' if your head and shoulder hits someone's leg as you attempt to charge them down. He was but a split second from getting his hands to the ball. That is not taking out! Goode's reaction was completely disproportionate as it was a legitimate attempted charge down.

Walsh's uselessness didn't change the outcome of the game, only the margin. Wales were simply better than us, but deserved an 8-10 point margin, certainly not 27. Even if the scrums were officiated properly by Walsh, Wales still had the better backs.
At least now it is glaringly obvious that Walsh is ridiculously biased against the English. Telling Robshaw to "go away" but giving Warburton (who has no clout whatsoever as Jenkins was captain) a 2 minute talk about his breakdown stance is absolutely despicable. Snubbing a captain like that just because you don't know the rules of a scrum should result in having your license stripped.
But leaving that arsehole aside and focusing back on the tournament, I have to say that despite the 40 minute blip against Ireland (which was only due to injuries), Wales were also the best team of the tournament and deserved to lift the trophy.

At least this means England won't be peaking too early. Our eldest regular player is Parling, 29. England can only go up from here. Come 2015 Corbisiero (if fit) and Cole will comprise one of the best front rows in the world. The only other props (a position where players peak between 28-32) that show as much promise as those two at such an age (25 and 26 this year) are Domingo and Franks, but those two aren't on the same team like Corbs and Cole. England could be sporting the 1st/2nd best loosehead and the 1st/2nd best tighthead in the same front row
Wales on the other hand seriously need to start blooding new players though, they've had a mini golden era, but come 2015; their dominant front row, their vice captain, and their "third flanker" scrum half will most likely be retired. Their breakdown work and backs will still be dangerous but their scrum will be very doubtful.