Nemani Nadolo ban for dangerous cleanout

South Africa beat Samoa in tough battle

Wales come from behind to beat England

All Blacks stay composed vs Argentina

Tim Nanai-Williams and Samoa beat USA

Prop Reggie Goodes steamrolls back

Pass Around The World with Allianz

George Gregan's halfback Masterclass

Sensational Stepper Nehe Milner-Skudder

Sunday, May 26, 2013

Dylan Hartley out of Lions tour after allegedly swearing at Wayne Barnes

Dylan Hartley will not go on the British & Irish Lions to Australia after he was sent off during the Aviva Premiership Final for allegedly calling referee Wayne Barnes a 'f*cking cheat'. He has the right to appeal the 11 week ban handed out to him. 

It was a dramatic and confusing end to the first half at Twickenham, as Stephen Myler kicked the ball out on the full after misunderstanding what Barnes had actually said.

A few minutes prior Hartley had been spoken to for the way he addressed the referee, and from the ensuing scrum after Myler's mistake, the Northampton Saints hooker allegedly swore at Barnes.

Coach Jim Mallinder said that the 27-year-old Saints hooker was directing his jibe towards Tigers hooker Tom Youngs, after a penalty was awarded to Leicester at the scrum.

"I asked Dylan at half-time and I've just asked him again 'what happened? What did you say?' He said he was talking to Tom Youngs," explained Mallinder.

"If you talk like that to a player I wouldn't expect anything to happen. Clearly, Wayne Barnes has believed Dylan has spoken to him. I support Dylan. He is my captain. If he says he wasn't speaking to the referee and he was speaking to a player on the floor I can only support what he says."

A three man disciplinary-panel ruled that Hartley was guilty of a mid-range offence.

Judge Jeff Blackett said: "We cannot get around the fact that Wayne Barnes was certain that Mr Hartley's comments were directed at him. Wayne Barnes said that if he had had any doubt in his mind, then he would have given the player the benefit of the doubt.

"In terms of sanction, calling a referee a cheat is an attack on his integrity and contrary to the core values of rugby and therefore we have taken a serious view and provided a serious sanction."

Hartley pleaded not guilty and has the right to appeal, but Rory Best has been called up. "Despite the circumstances we should congratulate Rory, who will join the squad tomorrow and fly with us to Hong Kong," said Lions tour manager Andy Irvine.

The Tigers went on to win 37-17 despite a valiant fight back from fourteen-man Saints.

View the match highlights | View the full match

UPDATE: The video below is now updated to include a close up slow-mo replay of the incident

Posted by Rugbydump at 1:28 pm | View Comments (123)

Posted in Big Hits & Dirty Play

Viewing 123 comments

TechnoMouse May 26, 2013 4:34 pm

It does sound suspiciously like "you can kick it out" to me, but that must be his accent. Anyway, whether Hartley swore at Wayne Barns or Tom Youngs is irrelevant - as Barnes said, if he thinks it's aimed at him he will deal with it that way. So to lose his temper in that way was stupid, and it's no wonder he was red carded.

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matt May 26, 2013 4:42 pm

I think most of confusion came from the sheer noise level at the time, and the fact that they were discussing a techinical point, he could kick it out, but it has to bounce first, otherwise the game hasn't restarted. And the difference between 'you can kick it out' and 'you can kick it straight out' was lost.
Having said that, I do seem to remember a 6N match a few years ago, maybe between france and Wales, where Wales (?) scored in the last seconds to get within 1 score, and the French were told they had to take the restart, but that it was the final play, and they knocked it straight out and that was that, I'd like someone with better knowledge to explain the difference.

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UpTheLowEnd May 26, 2013 5:06 pm

I figure regardless of what was said by Barnes and how he said it, a ref is only ever going to be stating what the rule book states, something which Myler, as a professional, should know anyway. He should have known he couldn't kick it straight out.

On Hartley, regardless of who it was directed at, what kind of moron (a captain no less) risks saying anything else of that nature mere minutes after being explicitly warned of what could happen if he did.

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suntzu May 26, 2013 11:33 pm

Indeed a few years back the French restarted the game but the restart kick went straight out, the game was over. Following this incident the Scottish (I believe they were playing Scotland) Federation asked the IRB for clarification on this law and the IRB ruled that if there was still time on the clock the game had to be restarted and that should the restart kick go directly into touch the opposing team would be given the options as per usual... The same goes for a 22 restart. Myler should have known this as should have Hartley and if the knew the rules of the game they are paid to play then they would not have been in such a pickle...

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matt May 27, 2013 12:19 am

Even though it was a few years ago, if it snuck past two 6N teams and the 4 officials involved in that then maybe we're judging Hartley, a man who restarts are not very important to, a bit harshly for not knowing. And Myler might have just done what he was told, hardly knowing any better himself.

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matt May 27, 2013 12:19 am

Thanks for the answer though

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Conman May 27, 2013 3:02 pm

Thanks for the answer suntzu, I was wondering about that. I think the key point of confusion was that between Barnes first saying the ball couldn't go out and then saying it a second time the clock had run out.

Given that the restart options are scrum or retake, not a penalty, then surely the time is up?

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guedaumbr May 28, 2013 5:52 pm

Conman, as a brazilian rugby player and not having had rugby union since childhood, my perception of some rules are kinda foggy.

But I agree, If the time is up and the restarting team shoots the ball straight out, even if it's the adversaire's next ball possession [in this case, OPTION - as Mr. Wayne says], the game should be over.

BUT, since Wayne said the couldn't go straight out, otherwise there would be another play before halftime[despite the rules - he's the owner of the rules onfield], Mylar should've kicked it very deep, to bounce and go out. After all, they'd have 1 and a half minute to make a decision.

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guedaumbr May 28, 2013 5:57 pm

In addition, the play did not end when Mylar sent the ball out. he should've known the rules.

as Lad posted below:

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TeamTom May 27, 2013 11:49 pm

It was Scotland vs Wales, I put a hole through my television in a rage when Wales scored that try!!

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mise May 26, 2013 4:40 pm

Serious question marks about Lions' coaches for selecting him in the first place.

There were anyway, but this confirms (way earlier than surely anyone expected) how poor a decision it was to bring him.

Too much of a hothead to risk on a long tour.

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Ron_Mexico May 26, 2013 4:42 pm

Hartley is an idiot. He has been warned before, and whether he was talking to his opponent or the referee, this is just plain stupid. As captain he has got to keep his composure.

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matt May 26, 2013 4:44 pm

I think his claims that he was talking to Tom Youngs are ridiculous, what front rower bothers telling another front rower he's cheating? I don't think there is a single scrum in this day and age that doesn't involve 5 out of the 6 front rowers cheating.

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John May 26, 2013 4:46 pm

Nah the coaches were right to take him if they thought he was good enough.

Bizarre sequence there. Barnes needs to make it clearer as all I can hear is 'You can kick the ball out'.

I don't think whether he swore at Barnes or Youngs is irrelevant. It's extremely relevant. He was sent off for swearing at Barnes. Players will say far worse to each other during the game. Hartley's missed out on Lions tour because of a misunderstand because of Barnes' accent (every rugby player would lose their temper a bit there, you can even see Myler say 'Fuck me') and then seeing taking offence when it wasn't directed at him.

Hartley has done some daft stuff in his time but I really feel for him here.

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UpTheLowEnd May 26, 2013 5:08 pm

I think it was more the fact that he had been warned about it not 2 minutes before.

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matt May 26, 2013 6:17 pm

I do feel for him, because not only has this incident possibly caused his team the final, but it has almost certainly meant he won't get to be a lion. That sort of thing will haunt him for the rest of his life, all for a momentary lack of composure.
But I do think from the replays that he said it to Barnes.

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MG May 27, 2013 10:15 am

The difference between a player saying "F*** me" and calling a ref a cheat is massive. It is central to the whole ethos of respecting the ref.
Barnes was in the middle and heard and saw what he saw, however unpalatable that might be to Hartley supporters.
Hartley's actions were, once again, moronic.
In my opinion Ken Owens and Rory Best should have been selected in front of him in the first place, as not only are they better players but they have a better, cooler mentality and they stay down when scrummmaging gets hard, rather than always popping up.

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FDB May 26, 2013 4:48 pm

You can't strike directly intro touch like that, don't need to ask it to the referee.
And you can't talk like that on the field. To the referee or not.
End oh the storie

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matt May 26, 2013 6:18 pm

But I would have thought before yesterday that if the clock is red, and you kick it straight out then it is the end of the half, regardless of what would happen under normal conditions

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Lad May 26, 2013 7:31 pm

After the Six Nations match between Wales and Scotland in 2010 where there was this scenario there was an exact ruling on this from the iRB. If a professional fly-half hasn't bothered to learn a simple law that could affect him then he's a fool. Here's the ruling:

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Ix May 26, 2013 9:14 pm

There was a directive issued to referees a couple of seasons ago; if play ends 'incorrectly' when the clock is red, even if the offence only merits a scrum, the game must continue. A specific example was even quoted of a player booting it straight out from a 22 drop-out, along with another concerning a team knocking it over their own dead ball area. In both cases, the action is 'wrong' and is penalised as normal with a scrum, regardless of the time on the clock

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Gonzoman May 29, 2013 3:31 pm

Of course, it wasn't normal conditions. The clock ran out after the conclusion of the previous passage of play. That means that play must restart and end again to complete the first half. This prevents teams from deliberately taking a long time to restart in order to protect a lead.

So, the ball must come in to play before the half can end. The ball went directly into touch, therefore it was never in play. In the case of a penalty or free kick, the game is still "live", so there is no need for the ball to come back into play. For kick-offs and 22m restarts, the ball is not live until it is played from the restart, so kicking it directly out is considered an error in the execution of the restart and the option must be played.

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Ben May 26, 2013 4:50 pm

He's a badly misunderstood individual, I totally agree that there is no place for swearing at refs but, in my opinion, he appears to direct the slur at T Youngs as they stand up from the scrum. I know Barnes said that he was totally sure it was directed at him but I wonder if the first instance (for which Barnes warned Hartley) was, and the second wasn't?

I know how easy it is to lose your cool on the field and I genuinely believe Hartley does so because he plays with real passion and conviction but, sadly, he doesn't quite know where to draw the line.

No matter what the outcome I think it's a genuine shame that someone has lost what will more than likely be their only chance to represent the lions.

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matt May 26, 2013 6:20 pm

I think it is very generous to call him misunderstood, his record includes eye gouging and biting, both pretty unforgivable offences in my book. Passion and all that is great, but if he can't control himself because he's so passionate, then I don't see how that is different to someone who can't control themselves because they're too angry or violent.

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matt May 26, 2013 6:21 pm

Also the ESPN broadcast showed a good replay of it, without sound admittedly, and he clearly looks away from the players infront of him, to one side where Barnes was, and says what he said.

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Calon Lan May 26, 2013 4:52 pm

Hartley was by far the biggest surprise of the Lions squad for me, he's a decent enough player but he's a constant liability to any team he plays for.

He's far more of a risk for his own tea than he is for the opposition.

I hope his team and the RFU both deal with him appropriately.

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Sam May 26, 2013 5:02 pm

Harley gets what he deserves. There is no place for swearing at the referee on a rugby field. As Austin Healy quite rightly said, this isn't football. Doesn't matter whether or not he was talking to Youngs, Barnes had already warned him about his language and, as captain, he has to keep himself calm.
He's ruined his chances of going on a Lions our, and this may well harm his chances with England in the future. Remember that Lancaster is a stickler for discipline.
In any case, Rory Best looks like he'll get the call up for the Lions which he should've got in the first place. Hartley is nowhere near him in terms of lineout and scrimmaging ability.

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Charlotte May 26, 2013 5:11 pm

It was after that game that they decided to make a rule about kicking straight out.

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brawnybalboa May 26, 2013 5:14 pm

Barnes definitely says you 'Can't kick the ball straight out" on several times, so the scrum is justified.

All I can say is Hartley is a total imbecile, he missed the 2007 World Cup for gouging, missed out on the England Captaincy last year for biting, and now has missed out on a Lions Tour due to swearing at a ref.

If I was his Northampton teammates I would want him out of the team, a whole season of hard graft, training sessions and games in all weathers, fighting through injuries only to get to the final and have everything thrown away by Hartleys gob.

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FoXtroT May 26, 2013 5:15 pm

I heard him say "you can't" and I'm from SA so I can't really see why his accent would be an issue.

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Ottawa Rugger May 26, 2013 9:43 pm

Whether or not it's ambiguous is moot because the first time Barnes is talking to Myler, before he walks away he says "the game must be restarted". Not to mention the fact that Barnes was advising him repeatedly. Some kind of alarm bell should have gone off.

If there's anyone I feel for it's Myler, not Hartley. I thought at the time he WAS trying to get it to bounce and therefore count as a correct restart, but now I'm not so sure. Maybe it was just a brain fart

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edd May 26, 2013 11:18 pm

I think I agree that Myler must have certainly been between two minds in terms of whether to kick it out or not. If he'd have wanted to kick it out it would have been straight to the back row of the stands, not just a few metres into touch.

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bill May 26, 2013 5:19 pm

I was at the game yesterday. I don't like Hartley. If he has sworn at the ref like that, he goes end of. BUT as a past hooker I would have liked Tom Youngs (I am a Tigers fan) to have said something in Hartleys defence. I am genuinely gutted for Hartley.

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DR93 May 26, 2013 5:39 pm

Didnt expect any comments on whether Wayne Barnes made himself clear on the ruling for the 22. As a professional player surely they MUST know the laws on that sort of thing. So on that note Myler just had a bit of a dumb moment.

Now on to Hartley. He is a fool, if you had just been warned for the way you were talking to the ref, why would you go and start cursing at anyone, unless he made it really obvious ie stood a foot away from Youngs and said it directly to his face with barnes watching. He really needs to conduct himself better

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TimChambers431 May 26, 2013 5:57 pm

Hartley has only himself to blame for missing the second half. He had been warned by the referee to watch his conduct and then mouths off in that way right in front of Barnes. Regardless of who it was aimed it he doesn't have an excuse!

This incident just verifies what many people were thinking - Hartley is too much of a liability to be brought on the Lions tour.

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Facepalm May 26, 2013 5:58 pm

I know Hartley's no brain box but I find it incredibly hard to believe that any player is stupid enough to direct a comment like that at a referee. I find it impossible to believe he wasn't talking to Tom Youngs.

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DrG May 26, 2013 6:05 pm

Either way after being warned by the referee that your comments are not appreciated you'd be wise to keep your gob shut...

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Facepalm May 26, 2013 6:20 pm

Yes, but to get banned for 11 weeks because you swore at your opposite number seems seriously harsh. It's the same as the Parrisse incident.

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Geegee May 26, 2013 6:50 pm

I would love to ask Mr Youngs a few questions and if any other Tigers know Dylan is telling the truth, shame on them, however all rugby players also know you never get a fair hearing and against a Ref allegation no chance. You just have to learn to not say anything out loud.

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DrG May 26, 2013 7:36 pm

Ya WHAT? Never get a fair hearing? My God what planet do you live on? How many COUNTLESS bans have been reduced because a player walked into a room cap in hand and said "sorry guv".

Give it a rest "and against a Ref allegation no chance." er-hum, I suppose you missed the Sergio Parisse incident then?

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DrG May 26, 2013 7:48 pm

That above comment was at Geegee..

@Facepalm, I just seriously doubt he said it at Tom Youngs, maybe those words are some that you've thrown about on the pitch, but generally "cheat" is a pretty risky word to use. I think it's extremely rare for a single player to step on the pitch and play a "cheat free" game. As a second row I'll stick my hands up and say I've played well OUT of the laws of the game, and lets face it, rugby is a game of cheating, whether you like it or not, cheating is in someways part of the game, it's just a matter of who can successfully get away with it. So I think it's extremely hypocritical to call anyone a cheat, which is why IIIII would never do it.

That being said, I know my argument does not denote a water-tight case, but as for the 11 week ban, if the comment was directed at the referee, which I, others and the disciplinary panel believe, then I think 11 weeks is fine.

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guedaumbr May 28, 2013 6:01 pm

maybe he said that to Tom Youngs because Tom had just SMASHED poor tiny Dylan to his backside.

"How did you do that? TO ME? You must be cheating! You Fuckin' Cheat!"


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matt May 26, 2013 6:24 pm

The replay they showed live was pretty conclusive IMO; he said it to Barnes. I hope RD can get hold of that clip

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Rugbydump May 28, 2013 9:20 am

Hi Matt - that replay is now included at the end of the updated video above

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matt May 26, 2013 6:24 pm

Also, I find it entirely possible to believe that a man who thinks he can get away with gouging and biting in front of all those cameras thought he could get away with this too.

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Facepalm May 26, 2013 6:37 pm

Perhaps I have too much faith in rugby players but I just can't believe anyone is THAT stupid. "Fucking cheat" is the kind of comment I can imagine happens at the end of every scrum at that level.

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replaywatcher May 26, 2013 7:50 pm

Well in the reply he clearly stands up, looks to his left, away from all the Leicester players and says what he says. Definitely not looking anywhere near Tom Youngs.

And then he continues to lie about it.

None of his team mates are paying any attention either, so how numerous senior players can back up his story I have no idea.

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DrG May 26, 2013 6:03 pm

I find it hard to accept that a front rower would call another "a f*cking cheat"... I mean it's a bit of a wet insult isn't it?? Especially when you consider Jerry Flannery said "that's the fookin second time you fat c**t" to Steve Thompson... Just calling someone a cheat is a bit soppy...

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Reality May 26, 2013 6:18 pm

It seems I'm not the only one who was expecting something like this and is quite relieved that it happened. It was a ridiculously biased decision from Graham Rowntree to bring Hartley instead of Best and finally things will be rectified. I would feel bad for him, but if he insults the referee like that over something so stupid then he deserves whatever he gets.

And some people are saying it was a misunderstanding, but I can't imagine Barnes mistaking Hartley calling his teammate something for him calling Barnes a f*cking cheat. It's not like the Sergio Parisse incident where the French referee who doesn't speak English thinks he heard the Argentinian insulting him in English. There's no confusion about it really, and if Barnes says he heard that, then I'm inclined to believe him. Hartley's reaction doesn't really demonstrate his innocence either. If a referee gave me red for seemingly no reason I'd go mad and would ask what it's for and would look very confused altogether. Hartley here, in my mind, knows that he's been caught and that he's done something stupid and just can't believe what's just happened, and doesn't seem at all confused about it.

And as for the 22, Myler is 100% at fault. Barnes told him not to kick it straight out, and if he plays rugby for a living, he shouldn't even have to ask what the rules are.

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Reality May 26, 2013 6:21 pm

Ah, it wasn't to a teammate, but in any case, I can't see Barnes mistaking what happened.

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Geegee May 26, 2013 6:46 pm

Why not, he is known for making plenty of mistakes and through the Ref Link he was very emotional.

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Gonzoman May 29, 2013 3:39 pm

Of course he was emotional...he'd just been called into disrepute. As a referee, your integrity is pretty key: you make a living from being an unbiased judge of fact and law. To have a player accuse you of cheating is a pretty direct blow to the core of what you do.

Regardless of where Hartley was directing his venom, if the referee feels that he or she has been verbally abused in a way that is not tolerable, then the referee is well justified in taking the appropriate action.

Think of it this way: if you were at work and a colleague started slagging you off, that would be a gross breach of workplace etiquette and probably punishable under the HR code of conduct, would it not? This isn't all that different.

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matt May 26, 2013 6:26 pm

I agree, I think his reaction was more of 'what the hell have I just done'

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Geegee May 26, 2013 6:44 pm

The players are not hearing the same as you, 81.000 people make a lot of noise. People watching at home get the microphone amplified version, which is not what they heard Whatever was going on, they certainly looked confused and that is what Barnes is responsible for taking charge of.

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Cluainoir May 26, 2013 6:51 pm

ESPN show the replay without audio, but its blatantly obvious who Hartley directed the insult at, and it was not Tom Wood. This man has a long history of indiscipline and fully deserves the sanction. From junior rugby upwards, respect for the referee is instilled into the players and is part of what makes rugby union the great game we all enjoy today.

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Geegee May 26, 2013 7:23 pm

I think you mean Tom Youngs, if it was not directed at him why was Kitchener restraining him as Barnes waved the red?

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Cluainoir May 27, 2013 5:35 pm

Do you honestly believe that he is innocent? He is looking no where near Tom Youngs (yes, my mistake) and directly at Barnes when the immortal words are spoken. You have to ask the question of how he expected to get away with it with such a juvenile excuse.

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Windeos Top Comment | May 26, 2013 6:52 pm

Whats is all this rubbish about confusion??

Barnes clearly answers a Northampton player after being asked if he can kick it out on the full, "No, the game has got to restart, the game must restart, you can't kick it straight out."

"you can't kick it out"

Then after the kick he is says, "you can't do that, I just told you".

So I don't understand why anyone can blame Barnes here. Barnes isn't there to teach the rules of the game to the players anyway, the mere fact these professional rugby players believed they were able to kick a 22 directly into touch is scary because it shows they have no clue about certain rules of the game.

Then onto Hartley, who had been warned about his verbals to Barnes before this incident, decided to call the ref a "f**king cheat". How can anyone defend a professional rugby player for saying such a thing to a ref??

For those who don't believe he said it to Barnes I encourage you to watch the video of the ESPN panel discussing the incident where you can clearly see Hartley from a different camera angle looking at Barnes and saying, "f**king cheat".

Look at around 02:20 of the 03:50 total video, of the analysis after the game where you can clearly see him looking at Barnes and cussing the ref out while calling him a cheat.

He deserved everything he has got and I'm just glad Rory Best will get to go on tour now because in my eyes he is the best hooker in world rugby along with Bismarck du Plessis and the fact he wasn't picked over Hartley was nothing short of a disgrace.

Rant over.

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Ottawa Rugger May 26, 2013 9:53 pm

Well, I hadn't seen that footage. Pretty conclusive. He did say it while looking away from Youngs at towards Barnes. Maybe he was saying to Barnes that Youngs was a cheater, but again, as I said below, in light of the warning you've received why even risk being misunderstood?

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matt May 27, 2013 12:33 am

Thanks for posting that!

I think Austin Healy makes a great point as well, we should commend Waine Barnes for fronting up and making an enormous call when he felt it was right, would have been all too easy to turn a 'blind ear' or maybe warn him again. Full credit to him

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ddubard May 28, 2013 4:08 am

The captain may consult with the ref. hartley isn't smart.

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Zack May 26, 2013 7:25 pm

Hartley OUT, Best IN. the way it should have been at the start.

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DrG May 26, 2013 7:39 pm

One thing people are commenting on is Rory Best..

Whilst the guy might be a great hooker in the past etc, his 6 Nations throwing was appalling... I didn't watch the entire Leinster Ulster game, so perhaps he's redeemed himself since the 6N, but he was by far the WORST hooker in the competition, in terms of lineout throwing, and that was NOT as a result of opposition stealing the ball, he actually threw numerous balls "not straight" etc...

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Windeos May 27, 2013 12:20 am

Did you see who Best was throwing to in the lineout? Whiles Best throwing is by far the weakest part of his game, if you give him a top lineout option he is fine. He is fine with POC in there with Ireland, he's fine with Muller in calling the line out for Ulster.

He'll be fine for the Lions. Besides Tom Youngs lineouts are arguably worst than Best.

The Lions test hooker spot is up for grabs.

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DrG May 27, 2013 1:23 am

I wasn't suggesting youngs was next in line, in fact I think there are many players who could pinch that 2 shirt, English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh (alphabetical order btw). I don't recall who best was throwing too, I do recall some not straight calls, if you are convinced he will be fine then ok I accept that, as said before I don't know enough/have seen enough to suggest he NOT get the shirt...

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DrG May 26, 2013 8:01 pm

The correct way to ensure there are no misunderstandings... POINT A FINGER AND LOOK AT THE GUY, a la Flannery:

View Video

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browner May 26, 2013 8:35 pm

1] Myler knew he couldn't kick it out on the full......... which is why he went to within 10m of the touchline, his attempt to do a cute drop out 'driven low style' failed, he got his technique wrong, the ball didnt hit the ground in field so Law 13.14DROP OUT GOES DIRECTLY INTO TOUCH applies. Of which scrum is an opposition option. In trying to mitigate himself Myler is quoted as saying it was 'a grubber kick' - what an idiot, if it was-[which it wasn't] then that would also be an offence under Law 13.12 DROP OUT INCORRECTLY TAKEN , with guess what.....the same scrum to LT option.

He knew, he just got his technique wrong, man up & admit it Myler, you'd get more respect than trying to blame the only Unbiased & Uncheating person on the pitch

Well done Wayne Barnes, another tough examination of his ability to make the right call under the spotlight. Loud applause.....

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HCJ May 26, 2013 8:49 pm

All this does is make right the huge mistake of picking a liability like Hartley for the Lions over Best. He just demonstrated why he should never have been chosen in the first place. As for Myler, the very least you'd expect is for professional sportsmen to know the rules of the game, more fool them if they don't.

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Carlos May 26, 2013 8:50 pm

i recall a matt guitau play for touloun when he threw the ball out with his hands after the 80 minutes and the result was the same... so u cant do that

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matt May 27, 2013 12:41 am

The replays of that incident quite clearly showed he was diving to catch a bouncing ball to slide into touch with, that then bounced unexpectedly, and instead of gathering it and sliding off he ended up knocking it out. There's a clip on here somewhere of it, but that is an entirely different issue to this.

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Ottawa Rugger May 26, 2013 9:19 pm

At whom the outburst was directed is irrelevant because in Barnes' warning, which was picked up live, he explicitly says "if you use language like that and I think it's directed at me I will deal with it". Emphasis on "I think it's directed at me". Hartley should have kept his mouth shut if only for to avoid Barnes misunderstanding him. Either it's directed at Barnes, in which case it's malicious and stupid, or it's directed at Youngs, in which case it's somewhat less malicious but still equally stupid in light of how clear Barnes was about being misunderstood. Teams most definitely do research on their referees, and they would know how fond Barnes is of his power (no offense intended), so why would you even gamble at the risk of Barnes being offended?!?!

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Yannoche May 26, 2013 9:34 pm

Ok the hooker wasted the party, this is sad. But can we have the highlights of the first half?

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pawel May 27, 2013 12:37 am

on the kick: i think it`s the kicker who chooses where to restart not the ref? on the red card: if Barnes didn`t issue red card after warning the player, he would have only ridicule himself with empty threats. ultimately good decision. on Hartley: stupid, irresponsible. dont call yourself a CAPTAIN please

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YaBoyEyud May 27, 2013 2:43 am

It still seems far more reasonable to assume he was talking to his opposite number as opposed to Barnes. The scrum had just collapsed, it was the last play of the half (a play that Hartley was convinced shouldn't of even happened), and Northampton had just conceded a penalty. It seems reasonable to assume that he might have lost his cool and sworn at Youngs, who probably had cheated, as opposed to Barnes who clearly hadn't.

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matt May 27, 2013 11:26 am

I'm not sure you can make decisions about Hartley based on what is 'reasonable'. And I happen to think him swearing at the ref is a far more likely thing to have happened anyway.

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YaBoyEyud May 28, 2013 6:06 pm

Despite the fact Youngs is clearly the one that would have cheated in that situation, and why can you not base a decision on what is reasonable? That would seem like the most sensible thing to do, no?

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browner May 28, 2013 11:45 pm

It doesn't matter, DH was looking at the WB not TY when he said it. Video doesn't lie .

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Gonzoman May 29, 2013 3:46 pm

Why would Youngs cheat in a scrum where his team had the put in, attacking options on both sides, and had clearly won and secured the ball?

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matt May 29, 2013 8:06 pm

Just playing devils advocate, for the penalty.

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matt May 29, 2013 8:05 pm

Because apparently Hartley's idea of reasonable includes biting and eye gouging, the man appears to often do things that the rest of us wouldn't even consider.

Also, why are you so sure Youngs was the one cheating? Leicester were going forward and the Northampton pack look to me to have splintered and collapsed.

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cheyanqui May 27, 2013 2:49 am

A shame really, couldn't happen to a nicer bloke.


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YaBoyEyud May 27, 2013 2:58 am

So much hate for Hartley, he's a quality player who has been an idiot in the past. To say that he deserves this for a) being a scum bag, or b) not being good enough, is pretty unreasonable. The guy is missing the biggest tour of his life because he said something that can never be proven was directed at the ref. Wayne Barnes got emotional, that isn't professional.

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DrG May 27, 2013 10:58 am

Admittedly I did not read each comment in depth, however I don't believe I saw anyone saying that Hartley deserved this for who he was in the past. He deserves the BAN and to miss the Lions tour as a result of who he was that game!!! It is very sad that he'll miss the Lions tour for him, but quite frankly he has been a liability on numerous occasions, so for the good of the Lions I think it is a good thing that he is not going. Of course my views will differ from those who selected the Lions team, however I think he is a huge liability.

As for Wayne Barnes getting emotional, I don't really understand you there. I thought he performed brilliantly, it was not out of the blue, he warned Hartley. If someone was repeatedly speaking in a derogatory manner or insulting manner about myself I would eventually lose any time for them. In fact I put it to you that Wayne Barnes will have been a far more impartial referee with Hartley OFF the pitch (so a Northampton player is no longer in his ear swearing away) than on it!!!

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brawnybalboa May 27, 2013 1:02 pm

I cannot get over the fact that this is not an isolated event. For an English player arguably the three things that you most want on your CV is that you played at a RWC, Captained the national team, and played for the Lions.

He missed out on RWC 2007 due to a ban from gouging
He missed out on English captaincy last year due to a ban for biting
He missed out on the Lions tour due to a ban for dissent

It is obvious that whatever prestigious honour he missed out on due to his idiocy, he will still carry on being a complete imbecile.

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YaBoyEyud May 28, 2013 6:11 pm

Obviously as Wayne Barnes was there at the time he is clearly in a better position to make a judgement. That said I fail to see how he could categorically say that Hartley was swearing at him, from what I could see he had his back to him at the time...

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matt May 27, 2013 11:32 am

IMO this video pretty conclusively proves that he said it to Barnes;

So I don't think it was Barnes getting emotional, I think it was once again Hartley showing that he has no filter between his 'passion' and his actions.

He is certainly a quality player, but he is an idiot in the present, I didn't have any problem with him being chosen to go on the lions, but I would have watched every second of his games on the edge of my seat nervously waiting for something to happen.

It is a shame that the consequences are something he will regret for the rest of his life, but banning him clearly doesn't work, so maybe this will force him to take a look at how he conducts himself, and that can only be good for English rugby.

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cheyanqui Top Comment | May 27, 2013 4:35 am

Somewhere in New Zealand, there is probably at least one person claiming this as another point of evidence that Wayne Barnes has it out for the Kiwis.

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cheyanqui May 27, 2013 4:42 am

Barnes clearly set out the marker, telling him not to insult him or say something that could construed that way..

Straight out of "Bull Durham", Hartley picks up that marker, just like Crash Davis.

Life imitating art.

View Video

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DrG May 27, 2013 11:02 am

As others have said, I think if Myler had heard "You CAN kick the ball out" he would have smashed it into the back rows of the stand, it's not like he's a damn prop trying to kick it... the guy has a decent boot on him and he knows how to use it, therefore there was no need to run to the touch line and give it a little dink, unless he actually heard "you CAN'T kick it out!"

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Colombes May 27, 2013 11:10 am

i absolutely don't care if hartley adressed these famous words to Barnes, or not...
the guy just can't keep his mouth shut and his a penalties counter... he was just the worst option for a hooker lions place, even at 3rd choice.
Best will bring the hardwork and ethic needed

if proved his comments were towards Youngs, don't worry, he would have found a way to be remarked in very fashion way in Australia

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Saintsman May 27, 2013 11:26 am

Any chance we could get highlights of the actual game? Trys, runs and hits.. that sort of thing...

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ConnachtMan May 27, 2013 11:26 am

Respect the ref. End of discussion.

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Refs are above the l May 27, 2013 12:01 pm

I AM ABOVE THE LAW! Some very goood tackles by laws. Then watching Northampton play their hearts out even when they had no chance :) pass the popcorn.

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Scottish Nigerian May 27, 2013 2:51 pm

Lets be honest. If he was saying you can kick it straight out he wouldnt keep saying it over and over. I am a saints fan but I think Myler mucked up here!

Who knows who Hartley was directing his comment at. Like mentioned before all front rowers cheat/ bend the rules to gain advantage. So if directed at Barnes he had to go off. If directed at Tom Youngs there was no need or relevance.

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dmcg May 27, 2013 3:30 pm

If this was 'contrary to the core values of rugby' should we expect D.Armitage or (Ashton) to be cited next time (and an insolent thug like him will re-offend)? Similarly, will players who take a dive (ala Earls) or play-act to milk a penalty (ala Parra) be reprimanded for compromising rugby's code of conduct.

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Reality May 27, 2013 7:53 pm

Earls? I'm not his biggest fan, but I don't remember him as a diver. Correct me if I'm wrong. Although I hope you're not talking about the Debaty push in the Six Nations.

You're right though with your general point. Diving and milking penalties seems to be standard practice now, so it'd be nice if something was done to stamp it out. The days of your teammates giving you a beating for it are gone, unfortunately, so the rules are the only thing that can stop it.

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dmcg May 28, 2013 12:48 pm

Irl v Scot in 2012 6N, Earls grubbers down the touch line and makes an arm flailing, ref apppealing, swan dive.

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matt May 28, 2013 1:27 pm

Perhaps not rugby's finest moment. But I'd rather see that twice a game than people calling a referee a cheat once and getting away with it.

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Reality May 29, 2013 12:42 am

Hmm, I'd be inclined to give Earls the benefit of the doubt there. Maybe I'm too trusting, but the legs get obscured in the replay so it's hard to tell if Evans clipped his foot just enough to make him trip or not. The fact that he grabbed his arm while he was running though makes me believe that he wasn't exactly playing fairly, so I don't think clipping his leg is completely out of the question. Although I see where you're coming from.

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Tilson May 27, 2013 9:03 pm

Hartley was an idiot. This isn't football it is rugby and respect for the referee is one of the core values of the sport. Any football referees take note

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PowerCorrupts May 27, 2013 10:28 pm

Wayne Barnes is the biggest waste of space in the IRB ref ranks (although there are some notable runners up amongst the newest batch coming out of Sth Africa in the Super 15 comp at the moment)... In his career Barnes has left an indelible mark on too many BIG games (finals, semi-finals, QUARTER-FINALS) to not think that he is a megalomaniac of epic proportions.

His temper got to him (thinking that Hartley had directed the slander at him) and his hand jumped to his pocket before he thought about the consequences of his action on the game that he was officiating in.. Plain and simple overreaction (in the style of Alain Rolland against Sam Warburton in the 2011 RWC semi-final). He could have just as easily penalised Hartley for the "offense" or even sin-binned him but showing him the red card without so much as a second to consider who Hartley might have been aiming his slander towards showed his own lack of control or awareness for the game.

Barnes should have also realised that he was reffing a Premiership FINAL... players are passionate.. they express themselves in ways that often could be taken badly. He should have been more considerate of that fact before warning Hartley in the first place and then to red-card Hartley he lost the plot.

I've been in enough scrums in enough finals games of my own to know that NO Player would contemplate stating that the Ref is a cheat. I've had biased refs but on the field the word "cheat" only ever refers to a player. Cheating is about breaking the rules.... this happens a lot in the scrum and the first people you (as a player) wanna spark-up at is your "cheating" opposition. I truly believe this was the case with Hartley, irrespective of which way his head was facing.

I hold no interest in who won the final as I'm not a "fan"of either team but I do believe that refs in world rugby are getting it WRONG too much the moment and need to be brought back into line with the sport they are officiating.

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Owen May 28, 2013 12:39 pm

so a ref cant show a red card in a final because its a big game?! ridiculous. And Hartley is such an idiot you can't assume he wont do anything, he's now racked up 47 weeks of suspension in his career there's no way you can defend him, and calling a ref a fucking cheat is bang out of order. I'm glad he's been giving a decent suspension should deter him and others from doing the same, stopping rugby from heading football's way, it's a slippery slope.

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matt May 28, 2013 1:35 pm

Personally I think Wayne Barnes is one of the best referees going, I have a huge amount of admiration for the way that he and others like Steve Walsh back themselves to make the right calls without being intimidated and do everything consistently.

As for him having got the call wrong, can anyone point to any evidence that he said it to Tom Youngs? Other than the word of a man desperate not to get banned so he can be a lion?

And being considerate of how passionate he was feeling? These are not 5 year olds, if you can't control yourself well enough to stick within the fundamental rules of a game, then don't play. Not controlling your passion is not different to not controlling your bad mood.

I don't care who won either, but I was glad to see a referee stand up and make a big call when he said he would. Especially seeing as everything we've heard about this incident suggests Hartley said it to Barnes.

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PowerCorrupts May 30, 2013 4:09 am

Citing Wayne Barnes and Steve Walsh as top referees is so laughable its nearly not laughable.
"TOP" IRB ranked officials ranked on how rubbish they actually are:
1. Wayne Barnes (Megalomaniac of epic proportions)
2. Nigel Owens (Ask any Samoan player or fan about this guy)
3. Steve Walsh (See description for Wayne Barnes... add dickhead)
4. Bryce Lawrence (Admittedly got it seriously wrong in the RWC)
5. Jonathan Kaplan (hot and cold in big matches.. inconsistent overall)

I dont hate refs in general. I admire the job they do under the amount of pressure that they face from both sides on the field. However, I really dont like bad refs that influence games unduly with poor or hasty decisions. The best ref's are the ones who blow their whistles the least and let the players play the game. Barnes showed his poor management of the game by allowing a situation develop that resulted in a red card halfway through the match.

As for passion... go play in a final match of a men's rugby championship at any level... passion is the reason we play this great sport. Passion is what drives us to destroy our faces, ears, joints, and backs playing a GAME. Maybe you're the 5 year old who cant see that.

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matt May 30, 2013 11:28 am

Cheers for including the made up list, that put me in my place. I don't know why I even bothered arguing with you, you clearly have a much better grasp of made up facts than I do. When Dylan comes home for tea, say hi for me.

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DR93 May 28, 2013 3:54 pm

Passion is no excuse. There are so many players who are by far more passionate about their rugby but they still treat the ref with the upmost respect, and also hold their tongues. Because yes they are pumped but they know that swearing at anyone can have a negative effect on the TEAM

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browner May 28, 2013 11:49 pm

Another Ref basher, try it one day , knobheads like you should be culled..

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PowerCorrupts May 27, 2013 10:34 pm

Note: I dont have any time for players who abuse refs. I've been in matches where opposition players have attacked refs (verbally and physically) and I've put my body on the line to defend a ref who I didn't agree with. Nor do I think that a player is more important than a referee.

I dont care about what Dylan Hartley's past record is. Or where he's from. Or that he was selected to play for the Lions. Its irrelevant. You have to take the incident for what it was at that exact moment. It was a player expressing his exasperation with a messy collapsed scrum. People are thinking WAY too much into this.

He shouldn't have been red-carded. Barnes got it wrong. Just like all those other times, he wont admit it... but he got it wrong.

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Dazza May 28, 2013 2:53 pm

He had already been warned quite strernly, that if he spoke to him again like that, or if he thought it was directed at him, he would have to deal with it. If Hartley is too stupid to not take that warning seriously, and then say the words "f***ing cheat" out loud, that close to the ref, I don't think Barnes has any option. Hartley should have turned his back, walked away and voiced his opinion to one of his players. The fact that he's the captain makes it even worse because that tells his team he thinks it's ok to behave like that, and it isn't. I think Barnes was completely correct in his decision. Hartley should have been concerned with the outcome of the game if he got punished. He clearly wasn't so I don't expect the ref to be concerned either.

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browner May 28, 2013 11:53 pm

He got it right, as he does the vast majority of the time, evidence me one example where he could have otherwise been expected to get a wrong decision right.

the IRB rank him very highly, & my guess is that if you tried refereeing , you'd fail miserably .......cos you need to possess TWO eyes !

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DrG May 29, 2013 11:20 am

"evidence me one example" ??? Lol, Can you even say that in the English language? I get what you mean but it reads very strangely..

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Canadian content May 27, 2013 10:58 pm

Couldn't disagree with you more. Refs should not consider the consequences of their actions towards the game when making decisions, they need to judge the action according to the law.

Hartley was warned and continued his behavior. I AGREE that his words were partially directed at Youngs. But he did so while looking directly at Barnes. He was trying to undermind him and criticize him in a sneaky way. He got got.

Warburton said his actions were a red, after the RWC was over.

Both calls were the right one, based on the action that took place. The person who must adjudicate what his actions mean to the consequences of the game, is the player not the ref.

Shalk Burger should have been thrown out of the Lions test in which he gouged the irish wing, but the refs wussed out and yellow carded him. The law is the law and must be enforced, regardless of the consequences, otherwise, they are pointless.

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James BRFC May 28, 2013 12:13 am

Surely if the ball hits the ground then the game is effectivly restarted? Or does it the have to hit the groud again if so the surely the defensive team kicking off aren't allowed to move until that 2nd ball hits the ground as that is effectively where the game starts?

I also don't get how if Hartley came up to Wayne Barnes ( like he said Hartley did) then how come we couldn't hear hartleys voice but heard Wayne Barnes perfect well! However if Hartley did say this they he thoroughly deserves what he got if not more!

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browner May 28, 2013 11:55 pm

Read Law 13.14, then you'll answer your own question.

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James BRFC May 30, 2013 12:40 am

Fair one. Haha I have read and get it now. Still new to this game but love it! Hahaha

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Rugbydump May 28, 2013 9:23 am

FYI - The video has now been updated to include a replay of the close-up swearing (at the end of the clip)

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Leadbitter May 28, 2013 1:15 pm

I think both clubs should have a good look at themselves.

Courtney Lawes made two thumping tackles on Flood in quick succession.
The first was a fraction late and was penalised, the second was not and play continued.
In both instances, Lawes was fully committed before making contact.

There is absolutely no excuse for `Cockers’ to behave in the way he did. That was every bit against the core values of rugby as any other act that day.
Players from both sides were constantly signalling and shouting to the touch judges, pointing out what they had missed or what the player had thought he’d seen.
Ben Fodens reaction to his try being disallowed was disappointing.
Hartley being sent off just capped off what was for me the most horrible advertisement for how rugby at the highest level has become far too close to Premiership football for mine and most true rugby fans liking.

The rugby was great.

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DrG May 29, 2013 11:24 am

I'll admit I didn't see the match nor Cockers reactions, but to be honest, he seems like such a whiny bitch. Comes across as a right football coach.

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guedaumbr May 28, 2013 6:04 pm

Everyone talking about Dylan's Suspension and stuff, but why didn't Poor Tobias Flood say that to the Flying Englishman aka Courtney Lawes?

Sometimes he's very disloyal, but hittin a #10 like he did is like Police hitting on Dogs !

Toby Flood got Sacked. Twice. In a Superbowl.


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Tc May 29, 2013 10:57 pm

A little late as only just seen the game and clips
I think the red is a little harsh if I'm honest. Hartley was stupid by saying anything so soon after a warning, but I don't think the comment was aimed at Barnes, I think he tried to suggest to Barnes that one of the front row is a f'ing cheat, but missed off a couple of words I.e. "he's a" in the heat of the moment. Easily done

Barnes can be a pedantic arse at times and this was a pretty good example of his poor game management leading up to the red

As for Harley's record, his first biting ban was plain moronic (but from what i remember under team instruction to wind up haskell etc) the second one against Ireland was as much about ferris sticking his fingers in his mouth and fish-hooking as it was biting (no decent video if i remember) As for the other stuff, what other top level pro has not been penalised, carded or banned for minor foul play? Hartley is an idiot at times, but I think his reputation is blown out of all proportion. The Irish clearly know how to wind him up

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PowerCorrupts May 30, 2013 3:49 am

Finally a bit of sense in a comment about this. I too dont disagree that Hartley's words were ill timed or poorly chosen... Barnes should have known that NO PLAYER at that level would accuse a ref of cheating. Silliness.
Hartley's record is irrelevant or at least as relevant as Barnes' record of poor decisions in big games I suppose.

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browner May 30, 2013 9:07 pm

Conversely, all players know that scrums collapse, so when DH looks at WB & utters his words, he was abusing the ref, & there is plenty of match evidence to show he was disrespecting the referee both before & during the 1st half.

Show us one WB poor decision in a big game - PC ?

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Edriss June 01, 2013 11:28 pm

"Show us one WB poor decision in a big game"

Well let's look at this big game !

First, here is what the IRB clarification actually says :

"The Designated Members have ruled that if there has been a score towards the end of the game and there is time for the kick off to take place but time will expire immediately after the kick and the kicker:

• Does not kick the ball ten metres
• Kicks the ball directly into touch
• Kicks the ball dead on or over the opponents touch-in-goal or dead ball line

The referee will offer the non-offending team the options provided by Law 13.7, 13.8 and 13.9 respectively and the match continues until the ball next becomes dead."

This ruling is not applicable here because :
- It is a drop-out, while the ruling mention kick-off only.
- In this case, the drop out does not follow a score.

So, WB call was the wrong one and play should have stopped.

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