Tonga experience too much for Namibia

South Africa beat Samoa in tough battle

Canada come close to upsetting Italy

France claim 2nd win, beating Romania

Wallabies beat Fiji with Pocock brace

Dave Dennis Mic'd up in the NRC

All Blacks fined for waterboy Messam

Sensational Stepper Nehe Milner-Skudder

Richie McCaw reveals breakdown secrets

Sunday, November 03, 2013

England get the better of Australia with strong second half at Twickenham

England came from behind to beat the Wallabies 20-13 in a scrappy game at Twickenham on Saturday. If the tourists had won the match they would have moved resumed their spot at number three on the world rankings. Instead it's another disappointing loss in 2013.

Mike Brown had a stellar game from fullback for England, claiming Man of the Match with an impressive performance that included some neat touches, runs and some great defence.

Opposite number Israel Folau was dangerous for Australia and although they had led 13-6 at the break, Chris Robshaw scored in the second half, then a fairly controversial Owen Farrell try gave England the win, pleasing coach Stuart Lancaster. 

"This time last year the scoreline was the other way around. It is better to have won than lost, that's for sure," he said, also heaping praise on fullback Brown, who he described as outstanding.

"His ability to beat people with his feet and break tackles and the general fight he shows in his game, it's a real important quality we want in the team.

"And I thought Chris and Tom Wood were outstanding. They both led from the front. While they are still relatively new in terms of caps, I thought both of them led the pack very well. Chris scored a good try and was involved right the way through the game, as he always is," Lancaster added.

It was Australia's eighth defeat in eleven Tests this year. The Grand Slam, which was last achieved in 1984, will have to wait for another year. They face Italy next weekend.

"It's hugely disappointing," said Ben Mowen, who replaced James Horwill as captain for this fixture.

"Just after half-time was a real opportunity for us to skip ahead and put pressure on England but we missed a few opportunities and they were extremely urgent.

"When you have that urgency, married up with a few things going your way, they created that momentum and took those two tries, so you've got to give them that respect," he added.

To his credit, Mowen brushed off talk of the second try - where Dylan Hartley appeared to obstruct Stephen Moore and create a channel for Farrell to slip through - being a questionable call.

"It doesn't matter what you feel. The refs decision is the refs decision and we'll always back that."

Posted by Rugbydump at 2:18 pm | View Comments (62)

Viewing 62 comments

FatProp November 03, 2013 5:31 pm

wrote a load about this then computer F****D up so put it short
Good Points-Dickson really clever
- Brown was Brilliant
- Vunipola was scary
- Robshaw's best game and back row in general

Bad Points- Farrell was poor
- Ashton (I said he should have played but was wrong) was really very poor should have played Wade
- Midfield was very crap could have been because the fly-half giving poor ball
- Twelvetrees tackle
- Twelvetrees tackle
- Twelvetrees tackle
- A hollow victory as I feel we cheated and find it hard to celebrate really.

My team next week 1. Marler 2. Hartley 3. Wilson 4. Launchbury 5. Attwood 6. Vunipola 7. Robshaw 8. Morgan I really want to see some big ball carriers

9. Dickson 10. Flood 11. Yarde 12. Twelvetrees 13. Trinder 14. Wade 15. Brown

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dave Top Comment | November 03, 2013 6:09 pm

thank god your not a team selector, vunipola over wood? what's wrong with you?

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FatProp November 03, 2013 8:58 pm

Just saying would be nice too have two big carriers - also does play 6 for Saracens a lot so I wouldn't be surprised in the future

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Facepalm November 03, 2013 7:23 pm

Agree about the hollow victory. The officials said there was blocking but not enough blocking i.e. "he cheated but he didn't cheat enough." Very, very strange.

Wade has certainly put forward his case after his performance at the shed. Sensational work from him.

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stroudos November 04, 2013 6:21 am

You'd change all but one of your starting forwards and decimate your back line, (with the notable exception of a bloke who missed a regulation tackle allowing a try to be scored), after a win, hollow or not?

Doesn't seem like your usual style Mr Prop, but have you recently taken up the ancient art of trolling?

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FatProp November 04, 2013 9:11 am

Not trolling just stupidity :)
With the the forwards the scrum wasnt that dominant against OZ so I want the strongest scrum we have attwood is a big tighthead lock and is a lineout caller the backrow is
just a idea i have against argentina because without Lobbe they wont have the breakdown presence so you dont need robshaw and wood

Backline well I dont want barritt (even though he would make the tackle) and twelvetrees is what we need if we play farrell but if we have burns then whack burrell in there and we will be great going forward but with farrell all you get is slow static ball

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iluvyomumma November 04, 2013 11:51 am

From an England fan:
We were very lucky to win. Against SA or NZ if we played that poorly we'd have been decimated. I cannot understand what FatProp is saying with his team selection and some points.
Dickson was awful hence why he came off after 53 minutes and that's coming from someone who's played a decent level as a 9. Poor distribution all day. Floaty passes, passes hitting the floor. Put the backs on the back foot the whole day. Gone from the whole match day 23, not just the starting line up. Admittedly, it had rained which would have made the ball greasy. Conditions like that are sometimes actually harder than when it is fully raining as the ball is sometimes dry sometimes wet so you don't know what to expect. Not easy. Either way, poor.
What does Owen Farrell actually offer except a boot and a few tackles a game? That break he made is only the 2nd I've seen him make (the other: lions v babas I think?). Too predictable and one dimensional. If we wanted a 10 who would just kick and tackle, we could have wilkinson back and have twice the player Farrell is. The sooner Freddie burns is brought in or another proper running 10 in the mould of carter or cooper (who by the way, my favourite player and at times genius on Saturday) the better for England. What really annoys me about Farrell is when there is a danger he might have to take it into contact, he s**** himself and offloads it. When he should just grow a pair and smash it up. He's not exactly small and is bigger than I ever was. Admittedly service was poor so maybe I'm being too harsh. But the back line couldn't function with poor service. Brown v good, yarde good with little ball. Ashton was terrible as per, so naive in defence. That attack was going nowhere until he dived out of the line.
Not sure what planet you're on dropping wood, let that one slide. Forwards were generally good I thought, particularly lawes (who you also dropped?!) and robs haw had one of his best games. Thought Hartley was excellent

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iluvyomumma November 04, 2013 12:01 pm

Thought Hartley in particular was excellent from the bench as were marler and Wilson, and they both made big impacts. England are starting to look like they've got great options in the forwards, Christ knows where croft will fit in, he has been England's best forward for years but with wood playing so well and robshaw with the captaincy.....who knows.
Apologies for the essays but hopefully you'll all appreciate what I meant.

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Phil mc avity November 04, 2013 8:38 pm

1 marler. 16 youngs
2 hartley. 17 corbs
3 cole. 18 attwood/parling
4 launcbry
5 lawes
6 wood. 19 morgan
7 robshaw
8 vunipola
9 youngs
10 farrell. 20 care
11 foden
12 burrell. 21 twelvetrees/burns
13 tomkins
14 eastmond/wade 22 watson/wade
15 brown. 23 vunipola

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FatProp November 04, 2013 12:41 pm

I dropped lawes because you need a lineout caller and I prefer launchbury and we are playing Argentina so we can play some back up players . against new Zealand players like wood and corbs would be there but Argentina are like us - the backs aren't the danger the forwards are so you want carriers and scrummagers. I thought dickson was alright but maybe should watch again as for farrell I agree but Flood is a bit meh and Burns form is shit. Also I posted my team hoping for others to put there team up so who would people play ?

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iluvyomumma November 04, 2013 1:04 pm

1. Marler 2. Hartley 3. Cole 4. Launchbury 5. Lawes 6. Wood 7. Robshaw 8. Vunipola

9. Youngs 10. Flood/Burns 11. Yarde 12. Watson 13. Tomkins (deserves another chance as didn't get one Saturday) 14. Wade/Foden 15. Brown

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FatProp November 04, 2013 1:09 pm

Fair enough -only Watson at 12 ? I thought he was a full back but I may be wrong also I dont think lawes is nor a good enough lineout caller

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Facepalm November 04, 2013 4:51 pm

Obviously this is ignoring injuries, but I would love to see these guys play together.

1) Corbisiero
2) Hartley
3) Cole
4) Lawes
5) Parling
6) Wood
7) Robshaw
8) Morgan (tough on billy)
9) Youngs
10) Burns
11) Foden
12) Tuilagi
13) Daly
15) Brown

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Phil mc avity November 04, 2013 8:31 pm

iluvyomumma i agree totally with those forwards,
Youngs in 9 for quick ball, and a threat because he oftens runs with it, where as dickson/david cameron lookalike is slow and boring.
Farrell in 10!!! He can tackle! Main thing! He needs to run more with the ball and gain confidence which he is, Burns cant tackle he missed a few in Argentina and you cant at internationnal level not if we want to get better. Flood is ok but... Not one team says " oh crap england have picked flood in ten" so for me hes had his chance and isnt good enough.

11 and 14.... England havent got wingers that can tackle its ridiculous. Ashton is shite! But Yarde, i was really looking forward to see him attack but his defence was crrrrrap! Its no good having a winger that is going to score as many tries as he is going to let the other team score! He should be dropped. Ashton before him of course but still. Billy (36) should be dropped, cant tackle, and didnt look that threatening. I would pick luther burrell. 13 keep tomkins he was ok, and 14 eastmond maybe or....wade but he cant tackle but at least he will actually score tries. And 11 Foden. 15 brown. (Alex goode cant tackle!!!!!)

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Phil mc avity November 04, 2013 8:22 pm

Also from an England fan ( a part from when they get thrashed by Wales ) I agree with a lot of your comments, Wood, Croft, Robshaw, finally got some fit athletic players in the team, Same with the props, goodbye the stevens,vickerys..etc and bring on the dan cole, marler, corbs....not too sure on mako yet he looked absolutely knackered at half time wadling of the pitch :/
Lawes and launchbry are brill, theyre just tall flankers, im not too sure about it being all lawes fault for the lineout, im a big fan of t.youngs but i think his throwing isnt always the best, and think he just lombed Lawes in the lineout.
Same for youngs scrum, hes too small, with the lions we saw that, either you have a small front row who get under and lift the opponents up (lions front row 97) or you go for the tall front row (england 2010) with likes of shezza, thompson and dan cole. My point is dont play youngs with a tall prop, hartley should start the next test with marler and cole.

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45678 November 03, 2013 5:34 pm

A lot of people and the press getting worked up about mike brown being a few millimetres in touch. It was several phases before the try and Australia regained possession at the line out prior to the try being scored, so it's a mute point in my opinion. Plenty of other things get missed in a game, so no reason to polarise this. England could have turned the defensive line out over and scored anyway - it's all hypothetical once the decision has been made

As for the obstruction. Hartley does get in the way, but it's no worse than the lazy line blockers teams put in place on a kick chase - and yes both teams did it yesterday!

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Benny November 03, 2013 7:32 pm

You're probably right, well, half right. Folau is just as much to blame for choosing to run the ball back instead of kicking when he knew he had no support and got penalised as a results. Although I'm sure Ashton threw that quick tap ball forward, he wasn't going forward himself so the moment excuse isn't there. Not to mention the obstruction. Sorry, I started out agreeing with you and now I'm not so sure :)

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oldflyhalf November 04, 2013 6:08 pm

mike brown was not a few millimetres on touch-line, it was with a few centimeters on touch-line. easy to see. please, make a freeze frame.
the question is: has seen, or not seen, the sideline judge? ...or, more recently, for England, a few mm., or cm., on touch-line ..."not enough" ?! :)

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Guesst November 03, 2013 8:56 pm

A mute point?...

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45678 November 03, 2013 10:09 pm

Yes a mute point! How many phases of play do you want to go back to pick a mistake by the officials? Australia regained possession of the ball and lost it again after several phases of play were completed. There were several knock ons and forward passes missed in the game. All as significant as the next, but because England scored a try 2-3 minutes after a touch judge missed a foot 1cm on a line it's suddenly a big deal????

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DanKnapp November 03, 2013 10:12 pm

I think he meant that it should be a moot point. He's a being a pedant.

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Reality November 03, 2013 10:42 pm

Or maybe he's just talking about a really quiet point that doesn't speak.

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oldflyhalf November 04, 2013 9:54 am

As usual the "perfide Albion" has the explanations for any "robbery", and, also as usual, he do it without any shame.
You, "perfide Albion", you are the best ! :(

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45678 November 04, 2013 8:46 pm

Spelling corrections and wiki references. Wow

Happy to defend an England victory. The perfidious Albion is usually wearing black or green or red x

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45678 November 04, 2013 8:58 pm

Correction. Scrub the Albion bit. Thanks wiki, you get my point I'll get a history lesson!

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PiratesRugby November 03, 2013 9:58 pm

In a match where one try was the difference between the teams, a blatant obstruction a few metres off the line becomes absolutely critical. It is almost unbelievable that the obstruction could have withstood video review but here we are. It was the difference between Moore ( a very strong tackler) merely getting us finger tips onto Farrell rather than getting a shoulder on him.
Perhaps one of the English fans can tell me a bit more about the experimental scrum laws being trialled at Twickers. You know, the ones which allow Vunipola to bore in at 45 degrees all night.
Regrettably, we are here talking about poor officiating rather than the good play which allowed England to win. Some good tackling by your forwards and backs, real authority at the rucks and some well organised attacks.
Fortunately, we are not talking either about some woeful Australian lack of skill and organisation which let the game turn on one poor decision.

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newfie November 03, 2013 11:14 pm

Anyone have a link to to the full game? I never got a chance to watch it

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dave November 03, 2013 11:28 pm

keep looking on youtube, i'm sure there will be one up in the next week or two

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FatProp November 04, 2013 9:16 am

TTRugbyvids on youtube

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TotesMcGoates November 04, 2013 3:41 am

There's been a lot of talk about a Grand Slam in the Australian media; I wonder did they take England a bit lightly?

Shocker from the referee for Farrell's try, I'm surprised that both he and the video ref came to the same conclusion. Is there some kind of 'benefit of the doubt' to the attacking team in this instance?

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Hendogo November 04, 2013 7:40 am

Now that I live in England. I'm a huge England supporter, but we got lucky that game. One lucky they won and two Lucky Australia is on a skid of late. However, some time is better to be lucky then good.

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Guy November 04, 2013 9:56 am

From a neutral point of view: I think Moore knew what he was doing when he bumped into Hartley. If he had gone for it he would easily have caught Farrell but he chose to milk something that looked like obstruction.

The decision could have gone either way but I can't say I disagree with the video ref on this one.

But I guess I'm probably alone on this ons.

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Clarkey000 November 04, 2013 11:23 am

All this talk about the blatant obstruction not being picked up being poor officiating. Have a look at the most recent O2 inside line video posted on RD. Skip to 2.14 and you'll see Toby Flood commending the Australians on their 'smart play' in which their player runs an obstructing line, arguably more blatant than Hartley's this week, leading to a try.

Because this was much further down the field of play it goes a lot more unnoticed, even though the end result is the same, a try to the opposition. The proximity to the try line causes an uproar, but all teams are guilty of these professional fouls, and Hartley in my opinion executed it so well that even the match officials deemed it as within the rules of the game

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Colombes November 04, 2013 11:40 am

Apart some Brown few flashes, it was a quite dire game concluded by a quite poor ref decision.
On a neutral view, it's quite funny to listen a ref able to say: "ok that's a foul, but is it sufficiently a foul?" #priceless

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kadova November 07, 2013 9:33 pm

Thanks for the laugh ! #priceless

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ConnachtMan November 04, 2013 1:23 pm

Regarding Hartley, it is only a penalty if his action had a material impact on the game, reviewing it I think it should have been a penalty, no try.

Stay classy Hartley, you realy are a credit to the game.

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mr t November 04, 2013 2:29 pm

Anyone else feel Genia returned the ball to the ruck prior to the aussie try?

16.4 Other ruck offences


Players must not return the ball into a ruck.

Sanction: Free Kick

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oldflyhalf November 04, 2013 4:03 pm

...sorry, but you are ...very funny mate. :) no offence ! :)
Genia a not returned the ball into the ruck, prior to the aussie try, he was only protected the ball with the foot to not exceed the outline ruck, what happened. ...maybe, you find something else. :)

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mr t November 04, 2013 4:18 pm

fair point if you only look at these highlights. If you look at more detailed highlights that show a little bit more of the ruck you can clearly see that the ball comes out and he kicks it back in.

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oldflyhalf November 04, 2013 5:08 pm

I watched to the incriminated play frame by frame, but not on a PC, on a profi-recorder. Trust me mate, it was not a rule infringement.

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Eddie-g November 04, 2013 3:15 pm

Decent performance from England, several new combinations and given what you can do to prepare in less than a fortnight, hats off to them. Forwards especially were strong.

A few things to look at in the backline (Ashton, Twelvetrees, Dickson), but compared to Australia's problems, they're not much.

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Eddie-g November 04, 2013 3:43 pm

The non-obstruction call on the try, that must rank as the smartest thing Dylan Hartley has ever done on a rugby field. I think it should have been a penalty, but Hartley actually played the part in such a manner - being in the way but not appearing to wilfully obstruct Moore - that I can understand the refs giving England the benefit of the doubt.

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RIP Common Sense November 04, 2013 3:46 pm

Ha ha, "Not enough obstruction".

This game that many of us love is becoming a bit of a joke....

Next we'll hear "The dangerous play wasn't dangerous enough", "The forward pass didn't go forward enough" or "The professional foul wasn't professional enough"

What's even sadder is reading how people try and justify bad decisions. DERP.

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dave November 04, 2013 8:34 pm

credit to england for banking in on their luck,
at the end of the day these things happen in sport
and it's the team that takes their luck that wins,
"these errors" make sports what they are

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RIP Common Sense November 04, 2013 10:34 pm


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dave November 05, 2013 8:28 am


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guest101 November 04, 2013 4:30 pm

The backline didn't really do anything for me, next week i would prefer something along the lines of dickson, Burns; Wade, Burrell, Eastmond, Yarde and Brown. It would pose a more attacking threat especially with the playmaking skills of Burns and Eastmond.

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dave November 04, 2013 8:31 pm

I think ashton should be dropped for ben foden in the next game and have kyle eastmond as a replacement, he can play 10, 12,13 and 15

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guest101 November 05, 2013 5:16 pm

Eastmond can cover wing as well, (that's where he started in union) so in effect he can cover 10,11,12,13,14 and 15.

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Phil mc avity November 04, 2013 8:59 pm

Why havent England had a winger that can tackle since the 2003 lot?! Marland Yard 6ft 95 Kg .... Cant tackle. He missed about 4 important tackles, i watched the match, then the highlights on bbc twice, i thought he was good. Well disapointed. the same, hes had his chance. Wade is good but, even as a Lion his defence was rubbish, youd think you might step up to the mark a bit more. I signed up here because id had enough of people saying "bring back Banahan" on the england rugby facebook page. Banahan is shite, we're starting to get a good athletic team, we just need good wingers. Best teams in the world at the moment (if you dissagree with these teams please dont reply...): Wales, all blacks and south africa. Wingers North, Salvea, Habanna. No one looks at the england wingers and goes " Oh crap ive got Yarde/Ashton opposite me, hes going to smash me in defence"... Teres no point in Lancaster not having the courage to drop them straight away. 2015will come quickly. Sometimes i just think... We had better start get Tuiliagi used to playing on the wing...

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stroudos November 04, 2013 9:40 pm

Tuilagi has played loads on the wing in the past, before moving to centre. It's a really good shout, the can always use him off his wing to smash it up through the midfield. He would frighten a lot of opposition wingers.

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Phil mc avity November 04, 2013 10:01 pm

I dont know who to put in 13 though, just say youve got 12 Burrell and 14 tuiliagi with wade on the other wing, who would you put as 13? I havent seen trinder, or daly, can they tackle? What about attack?

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Reality November 04, 2013 10:18 pm

Is Tuilagi not better-suited to centre? I don't think I've ever seen him kick (or his brother Alesana) and I can't really imagine him catching or even competing for a garryowen against the likes of Rob Kearney (the one thing he's still great at). Furthermore, he doesn't have particularly fast feet because of his size, so I don't see him dancing around anyone on his way to the try-line or defending against the same. Come to think of it, I'm not sure I've seen him do anything other than smash it up the middle - although admittedly he's sensational at that.

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Phil mc avity November 04, 2013 10:28 pm

Good points, but who else then? Ashton can tackle anyone, neither can Yarde, and those who dissagree watch the match again. All joking aside we cant have players that cant tackle if we want to go forward. I recon maybe a Tuiliagi would be quite good against a North or Salvea. But then yep he cant defend a kick (catch an up and under) or kick....but he is 114kg....

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Facepalm November 04, 2013 11:01 pm

That's a very absolute, defence-centric argument. England's main problem at the weekend was a lack of go forward in attack. We probably deserved to win, but were it not for some pretty poor officiating, the only try we would've scored is a charge down.

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Phil mc avity November 05, 2013 8:08 am

Yep attack was crap, probably because every ball farrell got was from a slow or bad pass from dickson, when youngs came on he upped the tempo. We need to play phase after phase after phase, quick and putting pressure on, to slide through defences, and ashton didnt run any threatening lines, neither did the centres (maybe 36 did one or good good runs onto the ball but got smashed back)

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ruckinmaul November 05, 2013 8:27 am

I don't know who else can play on the wing apart from the crap Ashton and Yarde. Can Wade tackle the likes of Savea, North? I dont think so. who else then? Sharples, Jonny May, or Stretlle perhaps?
The best I think is to play Brown on the wing and let Foden or Alex Goode plays fullback.

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Phil mc avity November 05, 2013 9:25 am

Yeah but Goode cant tackle, Brown is brill at fullback, and Foden wasnt too bad last time on the wing for England, but Strettle is shite, hes like a headless chicken, and cant tackle, neither can sharples, dont know about johnny may... Hopefully. But england must have some good wingers, maybe Watson (i recon SL will pickhim for the 6 nations)

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rememberthemer November 05, 2013 10:38 am

For those who want to start Hartley in the next match, watch for his sneaky swinging arm at 66-67 minutes. He might be a good player but he is perpetually 30 seconds from his next yellow/red card.

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Phil mc avity November 05, 2013 12:48 pm

Good point, no one has talked about Marland yardes stupid push on A.Cooper and got penalised for it. Shouldnt play

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