Saturday Sep 8, 2012 TMO advises on Ofisa Treviranus big hit on Charlie Hodgson

TMO advises on Ofisa Treviranus big hit on Charlie Hodgson
26
Comments

Last weekend London Irish’s Samoan forward Ofisa Treviranus was shown a yellow card by referee Wayne Barnes for a big tackle on Charlie Hodgson at Twickenham. The incident was referred to the TMO under the new law rulings in the Aviva Premiership.

The second of the big London Double Header games proved to be a bit of a walkover for Saracens, who thumped London Irish 40-3, which Sarries debutant Chris Ashton scoring twice, and Brad Barritt and Nils Mordt also crossing.

Flyhalf Charlie Hodgson became the first player to pass 2000 points in the Premiership, but not before he was smashed by Samoan bruiser Ofisa Treviranus in the first half.

Wayne Barnes took advantage of the new laws as he referred it to the Telivision Match Official, who confirmed that foul play had taken place, as the tackle didn’t include appropriate use of the arms.

A few minutes later Saracens wing Chris Ashton was also yellow carded in a similar manner, as he stuck his shoulder into Steven Shingler after the ball has been passed.

While not everyone is in agreement about the trialing of the new laws surrounding the TMO – which includes them being able to adjudicate on forward passes in the lead up to tries, and to check if try scorers were in front of the kicker.

While there is still room for intepretaion, it looks as though the weekend showed that it could go some way to stamping out foul play, and late shoulders in particular.

What are your thoughts on the way it has been used so far, particularly around foul play?

Photo: Onside Images
Video: Premiership Rugby

26 Comments

  •  stroudos
    stroudos

    Well, after all that palaver, it seems we're totally in agreement. And I must say, this is a good recommendation:"They should outlaw side on shoulder charges, and define legal tackles as having the arm leading ahead of the shoulder and not tucked."

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos

    Getting a bit frustrated with this. For clarity: - Do you believe the Treviranus tackle (yellow card issued by ref) should be legal? - Do you believe the Manu Tuilagi tackle on David Wallace (no penalty given at the time) should be legal? - Do you believe the Henry Tuilagi tackle on Ben Foden (no penalty given at the time) should be legal? I think all three were good, fair tackles, (although I wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of any of them). In order of legality, I think Treviranus was borderline foul play (if I were the ref I reckon I'd have awarded a penalty, but certainly not a yellow card), Henry a bit suspect and Manu completely clean.

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos

    "And you're massively contradicting yourself regarding the Manu Tuilagi hit.......... he did not try and and grasp whatsoever! His left arm was straight out and his left fist balled, similar technique used by his brother Henry against Foden.......... technically both are illegal......... punching the arm out which stiffens the shoulder area is not same as attempting to grasp."Disagree. Henry on Foden maybe, but I don't think it makes his tackle illegal. Manu on Wallace, notwithstanding the unfortunate knee injury, is a thing of beauty. He's got both arms round Wallace, which is as close to grasping someone as it gets in my opinion.

    Reply
  •  cheyanqui
    cheyanqui

    It's been a long-standing interpretation of the law that players must make an effort to wrap up. I hope people are not suddenly saying that rugby union has gone soft -- the law interpretation has been there for decades. If you think that it's a crap law, consider the uphill battle that argument faces right now. Many contact sports (esp. gridiron) are facing serious soul searching about hitting in their sports, and the long-term effects -- such as links to ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis), dementia, and the resulting depression (incl. suicide) that may come from it. NB -- in the states ALS is also known as Lou Gehrig's Disease (for a baseball player who played through many concussions, possibly contributing to his development of ALS). If anyone thinks that the IRB would want to me "more like" league or gridiron with respect to hitting, I would say they have little consideration of the IRB's role in making the sport friendly to youth and their parents. Every sport is dangerous, but sports like rugby -- that have a product they want to sell -- want grass roots amateur participation, not a bloodsport. If you want to beat peoples' heads in, try rugby league or MMA.

    Reply
  •  cheyanqui
    cheyanqui

    Thanks Stroudos for finding the passage... I knew that "attempting to wrap" was not written as such in Law, but "trying to grasp" clearly covers it. But as for teaching new players the game, "attempting to wrap" has long been what coaches teach, and it has also been how referees manage the game on the day. As for those that want to throw a shoulder into people first, they should look to playing Rugby League. They are always looking for players.

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos

    "Your wrong to say that that not attempting to wrap isn't a law..... it is, just phrased differently......... "Dangerous Charging" without "trying to grasp the player"." I said there *is* a law about attempting to grasp your opponent. So I'm right. ;) I think it's a fairly decent law, reasonably worded. Because you can't attempt to grasp a player if you're smashing him with the point of your shoulder side-on (a-la-league). So that type of tackle is consequently accounted for and deemed foul play. Usually if you tackle from square on and at least attempt to grasp, it'll look less bad if you don't manage to actually grab the player. That Manu Tuilagi tackle you posted was a belter. I think even David Wallace, once he could walk again, would say it was a good tackle. It was really sad that it put the kybosh on Wallace's world cup, but that doesn't make it a bad tackle, it was just really unfortunate. Some people might argue the force in it was unnecessary seeing as all Tuilagi had to do was simply shepherd the bloke into touch, but of course having been driven back 10m a minute earlier he may have wanted to impose himself and make a bit of a statement.

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos

    @cheyanqui & @UpandAway - and anyone else who doesn't believe there is a law about attempting to grasp your opponent:10.4 DANGEROUS PLAY AND MISCONDUCT (g) Dangerous charging. A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without trying to grasp that player. Sanction: Penalty kickhttp://www.irblaws.com/EN/laws/3/10/95/during-the-match/foul-play/dangerous-play-and-misconduct/ UpandAway will be pleased to see it makes no mention of whipping out a yellow card for such an offence. And to clarify my position, I think Treviranus did "try to grasp that player" - he just smashed him so hard that he was unable to actually grasp him. Having said that, I would not like to be on the receiving end of it!

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos

    "Dewi Morris is a lot worse........... described Henry Tuilagi's hit on Foden as a "Spear Charge"!!!! " I cringe every time I hear that. I hope he does too. Wasn't it "look at that: spear tackle, spear charge, whatever". Should've been sacked on the spot.

    Reply
  •  cheyanqui
    cheyanqui

    Your "attempt to wrap", is not a case of "the modern game going soft". WHILE "attempt to wrap" is not currently in the IRB lawbook, (nor do I recall it ever being in there written that way), NONETHELESS the "attempt to wrap" has been a game managment guideline for OVER TWENTY YEARS. For example, even as far back as 1990, new players in the USA were advised that they had to wrap their arms around the ball carrier (because we come from the shoulder charging world of gridiron, lacrosse, hockey, etc.) So say what you will about professionalism, TV rights making the game soft, but with regards to your argument, it's incorrect. The only difference in the modern game is that this stuff is getting caught with video. Trevoranis had one arm up, but had a shoulder charge hidden on the other side. In the old days, if the referree were standing on the tackler's left side, he would have only seen one arm wrapping, and let it go. In the more recent days, if the TJ were watching from the right side, he would see the right arm not wrapping, but in fact throwing a "flipper" (shoulder charge). In the current day, there is a TMO watch with spider cams, and so on. If you want to argue that the modern game has taken away rucking ball killers off the ball at rucks, I agree with you.

    Reply
  •  colombes
    colombes

    racist comment over here RD just learn to hit brutal and fair! a lot can, why not everyone? more and more player become lazy with this simple rule to try to wrap your arm i don't know if it come from league or any where else Explain me why a guy like Betsen, mot the most muscle man of the world was considered as the best tackler of the world...?

    Reply
  •  colombes
    colombes

    Hi, i'm a pussy NH whiteboy, but this challenge was more a shoulder charge than a tackle attempt. learn to wrap your arms, irb rules, etc... end of the story My only worries on this action are on the new IRB rules to call the TMO on many more rugby actions (forward passes, illegal tackles, unsportmanships...) I understand the ref must be helped to make the right call, but i hope rugby won't become a boring and a "multi-stoppage timed" sport such like american footballl and basket. Rugby is beautiful when it's fluid, i hope refs will use these rules with efficiency and not with excess

    Reply
  •  pretzel
    pretzel

    No offence but those pussy NH whiteboys made the game, so im sure they know what is "part of rugby"

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos

    You make a fair point, but I think the negative racist stereotyping undermines it.

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos

    Aha, seems I misunderstood you at first, having read this and a few of your more recent comments. If you're going to use *that* much sarcasm you can't blame me entirely for getting the wrong end of the stick! Couple of points though - most of the quotes above were uttered by Austin Healey who, entertaining as he may be, does tend to confuse himself a bit. But it seems he would agree with you (and me, by the way) that it was a fair tackle. The other thing is "Not attempting to wrap" actually refers to the specific tackle law in rugby union. That's why the commentators go on about it. An important point that is often missed by pundits (armchair and TV ones alike) is that the law says you have to *attempt* to grasp the player. If you smash the bloke so hard that you're unable to grasp him, that doesn't make the tackle illegal. Anyway, I should probably apologise for the trolling accusation(!), seems like we're on the same wavelength after all...

    Reply
  •  alex_the_kiiid
    alex_the_kiiid

    Most of you pussy NH whiteboys are shit scared of strong shoulder tackles so you cry foul, bitch and moan at any chance you get hoping that all of the whining will somehow get rid of these tackles in Rugby. Because they"scare" you...boo hoo! Physicality and confrontation is part of Rugby...so is courage. Obviously you lack these quality's, courage in particular! Just because you are not powerful enough to produce one, and lack the courage of receiving one does not mean laws should be put in place to change it. It means rugby is NOT for you. So grow some balls and man up because it aint tiddlywinks, or play soccer...simple! Better yet, buy a tutu lol!

    Reply
  •  jeppy89
    jeppy89

    Not sure if that was 100% coherent, from 'this is' I'm talking about the hodgson hit not lewesy's!

    Reply
  •  jeppy89
    jeppy89

    Right except, lewesy's right arm is wrapped he hits from low and drives up, with complete control and technique. This is a with a certain disregard to the semantics you seem fond of using a charge, with his shoulder it might not be the same as a 'shoulder charge' in league which is a deliberately employed tackle technique but it's a darn sight closer to that than a legal union tackle. Any one with enough gym time and bravery can run at another big man and create a huge impact, it does not require skill and I'd rather not see it in the game. The lad could have easily smashed hodgson in this play legally and had more of a chance at turning possession.

    Reply
  •  pretzel
    pretzel

    I particularly like the idea of using the TMO on questionable hits. More in the sense that IF we are going to be focussing on every little thing, at least do it there and then and get it right.... Personally I'm more than happy for this sort of tackle to be just one of those "I'm not quite sure guys, I'll check with my touchies, yeup, they're not 100% sure, so just watch yourself from now on..." sort of scenario. As we have seen in the SH this year, there has been the introduction of the white card. I personally cannot think of anything more useless and timewasting than a white card. I have said over and over, if there is an incident and the referee does NOT raise the white card, the citing commissioner STILL looks at it anyway... therefore I find it odd that they can view it as a real solution. Not to mention the "crimes are not being punished IN the game".... So regarding the white card I have mentioned it should be a signal for the TMO to view the incident and advise, much like this... But, as I have said, you either do it right, or don't bother. I personally didn't think this was yellow card worthy though...

    Reply
  •  theninjawarrior
    theninjawarrior

    This. Yes. I concur good sir.

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos

    That's your idea of satire? Jesus wept. How do you explain the fact that the poster you laid into was making the same point as you?

    Reply
  •  runningrugby4
    runningrugby4

    I think it was illegal. but dont ask the TMO

    Reply
  •  swing
    swing

    Nah, probably had a skin full last night and hasn't slept it off yet. I agree with Stubby on the white card. Keep the game flowing and all that. Only problem is there's more and more of these shoulder charges creeping into the game and I think they need a short and swift answer to sort it out. Unfortunately that might mean more use of the TMO :(

    Reply
  •  spencah
    spencah

    Very confused.

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos

    Ah yes, grade 1 troll alert.

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos

    UpandAway's got to be trolling, or just very confused.

    Reply
  •  stubby
    stubby

    i don't know if stopping the game for this is a wise use of the TMO. use your instinct (penalty or yellow) and refer it to the citing commissioner. Please don't go the American/Canadian way and slow the game to a crawl with replays and challenges. Makes sense for tries but not for this. AVIVA doesn't use white cards do they? That would seem to be a better way. It was not a surprise encounter thus he should have been ready to tackle properly. Legality was only a left-arm wrapping away.

    Reply

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TMO advises on Ofisa Treviranus big hit on Charlie Hodgson | RugbyDump