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Monday Jun 13, 2016

CJ Stander banned for 1 week after red card for knocking out Pat Lambie

CJ Stander banned for 1 week after red card for knocking out Pat Lambie
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Ireland flanker CJ Stander had to wait anxiously to find out his fate after he was red carded for this challenge on Springbok Pat Lambie during Ireland’s famous win in Cape Town on Saturday. Lambie was knocked out cold and will not be able to take part in the second Test.

*UPDATE: After a lengthy hearing, this article has been updated to reflect the news of the ban

The referee’s decision to red card South African born and raised Stander was met with consternation, but there was more to come, as the discplinary hearing lasted roughly a day in total. It took five hours on Sunday, and when it continued today, it seemed to take just as long (11 total!).

Stander has now been banned for a total of one week. He will miss the 2nd Test of the series at Ellis Park, but be back for the third and final Test in Port Elizabeth in a fortnight.

‘The Judicial Officer was not satisfied on the balance of probability that the referee, Mathieu Raynal of France, was wrong when he issued the red card to the player.’

The full written statement has not been issued yet, leaving Ireland in the dark as to an appeal.

Lambie and Stander were teammates in the South African U20 side at the Junior World Championships in 2010, and reports state that Stander made the effort to check on him in the tunnel, then personally apologise at the post match function.

Lambie will serve a mandatory one week break following the concussion, and with Springbok first choice number ten Handre Pollard also injured, experienced – yet out of favour – Morne Steyn has been called up.

The Springbok’s team doctor said even though the Lambie’s x-rays showed no abnormality, he will however undergo further scans this week as a precaution. He is now at home in Durban.

27 Comments

  • colombes
    1:18 PM 18/06/2016

    Don't waste time, let's avoid rugby and football comparisons and never feed keyboard warriors.

    Reply
  • drg
    11:02 AM 18/06/2016

    veji, there have been massive drives to protect players jumping for the ball, if you wish to punish this, as world rugby have, then it clearly opens all sorts of doors in favour of stopping jumping for a charge down... Stander was not jumping straight at Lambie, he was going for the ball... there is a huge difference here... A hypothetical, CJ Jumps in exactly the same manner and makes contact with the ball, then KO's Lambie - what is your ruling on this? He went for a charge down and completed it, or touched the ball, but in the same process the outcome was Lambie being stretchered off? Because the referee more or less states "he cannot charge down the ball" which I take as - he was never going to be able to charge it down.... The way I view it, is that if you're giving a red for the initial incident then you HAVE to give a red for my hypothetical - therefore you're opening the doors on charge downs. In which case, I'm afraid to say they should be scrapped, as should jumping for the ball. This sort of brings us all the way round to some point I made up there somewhere about how those awful bloody trialled laws in a varsity match about a free catch anywhere on the pitch are really the next step forward - this eliminates players jumping for the ball or feeling the need to jump for the ball. As for my first reply, there is quite a bit of truth to that, CJ was going for the ball and had he landed on his upper body after contact with Lambie then why shouldn't it be a red card to Lambie - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujVD0A2mbYo

    Reply
  • ahrefuronlyabolix
    5:07 PM 17/06/2016

    I was in the middle of putting up a reply but then I suddenly couldn't be arsed cause it'd be like arguing with a ref... what's the point. Let's look forward to the game tomorrow. Should be good with Test series on the line.

    Reply
  • drg
    11:05 PM 16/06/2016

    Nice copy and paste from wiki.... entirely unrelated but credit for ctrl c technique is certainly due...

    Reply
  • danknapp
    6:31 PM 16/06/2016

    Another difference is that in the NFL you have special teams. In rugby you have the Welsh.

    Reply
  • danknapp
    6:28 PM 16/06/2016

    I just want you to know that I thought these looked like lyrics, put them to music, and you only went and bloody won Eurovision.

    Reply
  • ahrefuronlyabolix
    5:09 PM 16/06/2016

    Have to agree fully with you. I think there are also a number of other factors to consider why Stander jumped the way he did. If a second row or back-row attempts to charge down a scrum half's kick as they often do within 10 metres of the opposition's line, they'll generally do it full on frontal with worst result being smacked in the face with the ball, this is because the kick is done to the side and the risk of having your head taken off with the follow through boot is low. I think in Stander's case, he judged Lambie was about to kick and went for the charged down using his hip as protection against Lambie follow through but unfortunately by the time he was in the air, it was obvious Lambie was going for a dink and thus no follow through which left him wide open and bad luck Stander actually caught Lambie's face with his hip. I'm astounded the ref said he had no way of blocking the ball, that's tantamount to saying Stander jumped with the intention of knocking Lambie out with his hip. This incident was a yellow card at most for making a wrong split second decision which resulted in an unfortunate injury. Refereeing decisions like this are a poor attempt at trying to ignore the obvious physicality of rugby and potential chance for injury. With the size, power and pace of the modern game, it is surprising but a good thing that injuries like this don't happen more often.

    Reply
  • drg
    7:19 PM 14/06/2016

    So what you're saying is, CJ Stander should have jumped, hit Lambie then fallen on his head and neck and so Lambie got sent off? Because clearly here CJ is the one "going for the ball" and Lambie is the one kicking it away... so surely we must protect players in the air who are going for the ball? So what you're suggesting is that players need to be more thoughtful with how they land after any contact in the air... i.e. it's worth risking yourself an injury by landing on your head when you jump for a ball. I won't even justify* your late comment by suggesting that there is no such thing as a late charge down, the ball was in between Lambie and CJ when CJ jumped, if it had been behind CJ when he jumped then I'd say it was an utterly pointless jump and could be ruled as a late charge, or late contact... but it wasn't, so he had every right to compete for it........*ooops... I just did...

    Reply
  • autodidactical
    4:19 PM 14/06/2016

    Well, clearly there's a blocking issue which would lead to multiple offside/interference penalties but I was thinking more about what could be done to eliminate this sort of problem i.e. striking the kicker when charging down. The NFL are so protective of the kicker that players have been forced to change the angles of pursuit to make sure that they do not touch the kicker whatsoever. I just don't believe this protection of the kicker in Rugby is possible (or necessary, really) as the game is much more fluid; I don't think it's a coachable skill in Rugby.

    Reply
  • ispotts27
    3:10 PM 14/06/2016

    The difference between the NFL and Rugby is that in the NFL you have an offensive line blocking the opposing special teams players (which would be called for obstruction in rugby more often than not) making the only good angles to block the kick those crossing the kicker rather than leaping towards him. Also like you mentioned there is more of a timing issue in the NFL as play begins from a standstill and players have x amount of seconds to reach the punter/kicker.

    Reply
  • drg
    2:18 PM 14/06/2016

    European Academy of Paediatric Societies??!?

    Reply
  • autodidactical
    1:54 PM 14/06/2016

    While abjectly disappointed, I was not at all surprised. However, I have a question or two: 1) If he had managed to charge the ball down AND the result had been the same (a brush of Stander's ilium to poor Lambie's face), would the sanction have been the same? It certainly wouldn't have been late as he would have charged the ball down but to judge it to be reckless would have been very difficult, as the technique was correct. In this case it simply appears to have been the result of the collision that compelled the referee to issue a red card, which is to say nothing new but it clearly leads rugby down a murky path, strewn with indecision and ill consequence. No one is safe in sport where accidents cannot happen as blame must be attributed, harshly when the accident leads directly to an injury as serious as this. In the NFL the special team try to 'block' the punter or the kicker's punt or kick, but do so in a way - at least in theory - that when they do fly in for the ball, the angle of trajectory is not going to impinge upon the well-being of the kicker when momentum takes irrevocable control of the blocker. However, the distance and timing of these acts are so rehearsed that I do not know if this is a viable option in Rugby. 2) Is it anyone else's opinion that he probably rotated his body like that because Lambie was in all likelihood going to attempt a clearance kick down field, only to have called a dink it over the top into space for his supporting cast to chase. Stander was not in the lineout and so had a virtually straight run up, untrammeled by involvement in the set-piece, and he saw his opportunity to charge down the fly-half. He may have even effected the skill if Lambie had wound up for a big hoof upfield, but unfortunately the lightly kicked ball meant the ball was past Stander before he had time to react benevolently.

    Reply
  • s_conner
    12:29 PM 14/06/2016

    Was there intent? Was it late? Could he have done more to avoid the collision? For me, the jump was a bit reckless (bearing in mind the oppo kicker is always unable to brace himself for contact) and so should be punished. Red could be a bit harsh, but players have a responsibility to protect each other's welfare in the tackle, and I don't view charge downs any differently.

    Reply
  • drg
    9:21 AM 14/06/2016

    "late" rather....

    Reply
  • drg
    9:20 AM 14/06/2016

    Where are you all getting this @late@ from?? As explained by others, it's a charge down, so Stander can jump whenever he wants, he's not required to jump before Lambie kicks the ball, or even as Lambie kicks the ball.... I've seen low spiralling kicks charged down 2-3 metres in front of the kicker by hands in the air... ...in fact because its not a challenge on Lambie, but a challenge on the ball, late has no meaning here... the contact made with Lambie was not late, because there was never any aim to make contact and contact is not something that is needed for a chargedown, it was a consequential outcome of an attempted charge down.... Laws need to be brought in to stop players leaving their feet... this is the only way forward... it is apparent that player safety is the on;y requirement and will be put first and foremost, so no jumping is the way this has to go to avoid these freak accidents. That includes jumping for the ball - which Stander did here I might add... I can on;y see why that free catch bollocks was trialle recently in that varsity match....it's because it is the next logical step...

    Reply
  • pire
    7:43 AM 14/06/2016

    Red card = Correct 1 Week ban = very lenient Over eagerness lead to bad judgement.

    Reply
  • durrie
    11:47 PM 13/06/2016

    IMO it was late and deserved yellow. The shoulder tackle to the face on Jantjies was much closer to red! Safety is however rightly so now an imperative catch 22 bye product of the rule changes in recent years designed to speed the game up. Essentially Standers technique was piss poor and that is why the IRB sanctioned this incident, rightly so from a responsibility standpoint that players need to take responsibility for their decisions...like the couple of reds we've seen this year for players making contact with players in the air catching... Body language simply does not lie and Standers body language is entirely hesitant. His hips permanently ahead of his head a tell tale sign he never thought he had a real chance of the charge down. It's impossible and utterly ridiculous to rule on intent, unless it's a punch, trip, head but or the like...the IRB need to get this right! It is however 100% rational to rule on technique and Stander quite simply chose to make a play that exhibited very bad technique that directly put a opponent in grave danger...

    Reply
  • flanker2712
    11:26 PM 13/06/2016

    When explaining the decision to Best he says "he cannot charge down the ball", but I think what he means is that he was never going to be able to charge down the kick (and went ahead with the jump anyway). Earlier, when confirming his view with the video ref, he says "he has no chance to charge down the ball". He also said it was dangerous, with the "eaps", whatever they are!

    Reply
  • 45678
    10:46 PM 13/06/2016

    Maybe lost in translation, but I'm sure the ref says "you are not allowed to charge down ze ball" or words to that effect. Strange call. I think if had stander made contact with the ball it would have been an unfortunate collision with no resulting penalty. That doesn't mean you are not allowed to attempt a charge down

    Reply
  • ronan
    10:26 PM 13/06/2016

    piss poor reffing. absolutly no intent, a few more inches and stander would have got the ball. whats next, players must be stationary with two feet firmly on the ground before attempting a charge down??? and one week ban!!! a slap on the back for the ref for making such a shite decision...

    Reply
  • flanker2712
    9:34 PM 13/06/2016

    Not much more to add to what has already been said. Was it late? Definitely not. Was it intentional? Only the player can know. Did he mean to catch him in the face with his hip/arse? Considering the possible consequences, probably not. Did he mean to give him a bit of a bump, knock him off his stride? Maybe. And if he did, what's wrong with that as an intention? It's part of the game. Go to the highlights of the game in the other post. Around 3:00, paddy Jackson makes a lovely break and chips it over Le Roux, who jumps to to try to block the kick. The players collide, Le Roux even brings his knees up in a strange movement, but as Jackson has a try on his mind, he moves his body enough that he can get past Le Roux and has a chance to get the ball. If this was just a clearing kick, query whether he would have done that. If not, he could well have taken a knee to the face and, by the same logic, Le Roux would be sent off. So the question is whether jumping to attempt a charge-down is reckless. And if it is reckless, is it worthy of a red card? If the answer to each of those questions is yes, we need some new guidance from the IRB!

    Reply
  • rugbydump
    8:04 PM 13/06/2016

    One week ban for CJ Stander. Full details to follow

    Reply
  • drg
    7:41 PM 13/06/2016

    Very late... what bloody units of time do you use!?!? If this is very late then trying to get my wife out of the house on time must be some phenomenal unit in your eyes... Lambie kicks it and a split of a split, split second later CJ is in the air, from that point onwards there is nothing he can do, he twists hit body seemingly following the ball... As for never getting to the ball, would you have known that at that second? I can think of a few scenarios where 10's have kicked low and long and had their kicks charged down by giant oppositions, in this instance Lambie kicks high and not that long.. ...and as for Schumacher on Battiston, firstly I had no idea what you were on about, I thought this was going to be some amusing reference to some F1 thing, had to google it, only to find some grainy footage of some Wendyball incident... I can say firstly, it's irrelevant on so many levels, A) it's a different sport. B) it's a different type of kick. C) footballers are made of glass (perhaps not so relevant to that era..., but Battiston is French...

    Reply
  • rich_w
    7:30 PM 13/06/2016

    Dr G makes a very good point. To disagree you'll have to counter some of his arguments, as I'll counter yours Bunn. Firstly, late: It doesn't matter if Stander jumps after the ball has left Lambies boot (and even this is so close it's debatable) because he is attempting a charge down. Stander can jump after the ball leaves his boot and still charge it down, he is going for the ball. It would only be late if the ball had passed him by before he jumped. Secondly, charging down players often turn to avoid a ball in the face. I suppose you could use this as a basis for some sort of illegality, but it's a bit weak. Be a shame if he gets a ban, he and Ireland were punished sufficiently (too much in my opinion) with a red.

    Reply
  • eddie-g
    7:19 PM 13/06/2016

    I disagree with you that the challenge is late. He's not trying to tackle Lambie, he has every right to try charge the kick down, and he nearly gets there. The question really is if the charge was reckless, whether he could have done more to avoid colliding with Lambie. I don't think so myself. You could even argue that by turning side-on, he's giving Lambie the best chance of avoiding a collision. To me, never worthy of a red card. And unlike Schumacher - who deliberately leveled Battiston - there was nothing malicious about this.

    Reply
  • bunn
    6:52 PM 13/06/2016

    I have to completely disagree Firstly the challenge is very late, Stander is never getting to the ball as Lambie has made contact with the ball as Stander jumps. Even if you don't think it was late, Stander could have lessed the impact if he wanted to. By leading with his hip he has turned a late collision into one were he has caused serious head trauma. How is Standers challenge any different from Schumacher's on Battiston (where Battiston fell into a coma as well as breaking vertebrae, ribs and losing teeth)?

    Reply
  • drg
    5:17 PM 13/06/2016

    Think you should probably add the Jared Payne Alex Goode video in the related posts so that we can all see how clear cut this is! I'd definitely like to say congratulations to CJ Stander for not losing his head and berating the referee for such an abysmal decision* - He took the decision and left the field without any gesticulation, shaking of the head, swearing etc... Coming to my *, whatever the outcome is, it is wrong, if the referee made the correct decision, then I disagree with it, if the referee was wrong with his call, then I disagree with his call. We've all seen tackles where the victim literally bounces off before the player can grasp him - then there are the tackles where the player feigns some sort of pathetic attempted grasp, neither of those are penalised, so what we have here is Stander jumping to charge down the ball, he either meant to charge down the ball, or he feigned and did a good job of feigning it... Either way, his success in reaching a great height should not be penalised. Furthermore, if he had made contact with the ball, what would be the ruling? It could have still ended with an arse to the face.... Another awful hypothetical, what if Stander had tipped and landed on his head? Should Lambie have been punished as well, for taking out Stander in the air? I suspect the consensus is that Stander recklessly threw himself into the air.... So, did Alex Goode not recklessly jump into the air to catch the ball and thus take out a totally unsuspecting Jared Payne? http://www.rugbydump.com/2014/04/3672/jared-payne-banned-for-two-weeks-after-red-card-challenge-on-alex-goode Or are we basing things on the successes of challenges? You can do something totally bloody ridiculous, and as long as you either catch the ball, or touch the ball, you'll be ok.... They're taking their time with the rulings, why? Because if they let Stander off, then it says their referee made a pitifully bad call... if they punish Stander then they set a new precedent.

    Reply


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CJ Stander banned for 1 week after red card for knocking out Pat Lambie | RugbyDump - Rugby News & Videos