RugbyDump RugbyDump
Sunday Mar 22, 2015

Courtney Lawes lays into another unsuspecting flyhalf, this time Jules Plisson

Courtney Lawes lays into another unsuspecting flyhalf, this time Jules Plisson
152
Comments

France number ten Jules Plisson was left wondering who had allowed a runaway bull into Twickenham on Saturday, only to return from a world of pain to realise it was England second row Courtney Lawes who had thumped him to the ground.

The recently back from injury Lawes was in his usual ferocious form, epitomising his desire with a trademark monstrous tackle on the French playmaker.

Well known for his ability to put formidable pressure on opposition fly-halves, Lawes’s execution was timed to perfection as he made contact just as Plisson passed the ball.

Fully committed to the challenge, the English lock was subject to some French remonstration immediately following the hit, but subsequent replays showed that there was no fault in Lawes’s technique and referee Nigel Owens was happy for play to continue.

To Plisson’s credit, having taken some time to catch his breath and comprehend what had just happened, he returned to his feet and threw himself back into the game – but was perhaps a little more wary of Lawes’s whereabouts whilst in possession.

Video of the hit has been circulated widely since the match, with this one, in which you can hear referee Owens reacting to the tackle, already reaching around half a million views in just one day.

England went on to win the match 55-35, which although it was an impressive victory, wasn’t enough to win the Championship, as they finished second for the fourth consecutive year.

You can view more of Lawes’ brutal hits in the Related Posts below this video

152 Comments

  •  kadova
    kadova
    9:06 PM 31/03/2015

    Please, do so, and do not forget to add to your video link the comment coming along with it on youtube: "Jaco Peyper loses patience with Frans Steyn after a series of late hits." :o) On a side note, Jules Plisson tweeted he's perfectly fine. Lucky guy !

    Reply
  •  oliver
    oliver
    8:48 AM 30/03/2015

    Late reply, wasn't at home for 4 days. So to make it quick: 1. I think Lawes' tackle is infinitely more dangerous than Betsen's, because of the way Plisson lands. 2. I would be "happy" if both Lawes and Betsen had gotten a yellow card. 3. French players get consistentely harsher treatment from the referee/citing commission, precisely because people hold the same cliches against them as you do. And on a final note, I think a lot of it comes from cultural differences and the language barrier. I'd love to see how an English team would react in the 6 nations if they were refereed by someone who does not speak their language.....

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    11:29 AM 28/03/2015

    By comparison, French rugby is now like tiddlywinks, I'm amazed at the lack of fists flying, it seems Georgia has taken on that style. French rugby some how cleaned up overnight. I also thought that was interesting with the last 2 comparisons and the English one throwing up more hits, however there were a few league ones and for some reason the Aussie getting pummelled by the French was included...no idea why..

    Reply
  •  rdump0
    rdump0
    8:50 PM 27/03/2015

    Yeah, we're probably not getting anywhere there... We both feel we're right and won't manage to convince the other one there.. We won't agree on the interpretation of the law. And we won't agree on the fact that a ref and a TMO can get it wrong as well. Btw, here's a funny one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_6poWjKmhM and here's even one with owens himself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm3bzWmZd0s I suppose we should just leave it there and move on to halfpenny's poor tackling technique.

    Reply
  •  rdump0
    rdump0
    8:30 PM 27/03/2015

    Well there is something to it, about french rugby fights! Used to be in the local village rugby culture, to throw in some punches for the fun of it. But to be fair, I think it is getting better in the last decade. I like the last comparison, French rugby fights vs English rugby fights. Not sure it means a lot, but there are 20000 more hits for the english one... Maybe they just have more tv footage!

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    9:02 AM 27/03/2015

    I love that most threads end up with us squabbling like schoolboys.

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos
    8:52 AM 27/03/2015

    DrG: whatever I'm doing is not intentionalAre you undergoing hypnosis?

    Reply
  •  felipeg
    felipeg
    3:46 PM 26/03/2015

    Haven't heard about those US lawsuits. Must be interesting as far as the law is concerned. I hope Rugby won't follow that line anyway. Imagine a kind of "smoking kills" like adverstisement on rugby shirts :-) 1, 2, 3 everybody pukes. I am quiet confident. English and continental law may be completely different, but they both can be opposed to the US legal culture which tend to see negligence everywhere and make it easier to sue "deep pockets" even where there is no mistake commited. Sometimes it hurts but its no one's fault. In those cases, I rather have every player/club/country pay for a kind of mutual insurance that helps badly injured players. Better than a lawsuit pretending someone was negligent.

    Reply
  •  felipeg
    felipeg
    3:27 PM 26/03/2015

    Not sure either :-) Something like there may seem to be a paradoxal evolution which sees on one hand player faking injuries (Huget did, not so long ago if I am not mistaken) and playing the ref, and on the other hand, there is an increasing admiration of the media/public for battering rams and destroyers. Ok I confess I enjoy watching Try Saver and Rib Breakers... but I feel guilty about it! As far as rugby is concerned, I m a bit conservative, even romantic one may say.

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    2:30 PM 26/03/2015

    Exactly my point for why 'intimidation' is part of the game.. If your team has a JW, then I want him to be receiving the ball from 20-30m behind the ruck, because my team has a Lawes that will get him in an instant.... I am a forward and I love putting pressure on the fly half, when do club teams every practice changing their plan entirely because the fly half is under huge pressure??? If I can force the fly half to pass earlier, stand deeper etc then as far as I'm concerned I have an additional tick in the 'defensive duties' box..

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    2:23 PM 26/03/2015

    The point is Colombes, is that there are players that have been putting in monster hits for years and the majority's don't even give it a second thought.... The moment a monster tackle is done in 2015 everyone goes mental. The is no clear connection between French league brawls and this, other than fans of the game who have seen both... I don't know where all the French rugby fans that used to watch the 'brawls'.. I'm amazed at the huge difference between the brawls and this (which was deemed legal) and how such a fuss is being made... Or does a lot of the unhappiness stem from ill treatment of French players in the 'courts'? If it is due to unfair punishments to French players, then I beg that you stop and re look at incidents and judge them on what they are. If French players are being mis-punished, then THAT needs to be addressed. After seeing Du-Plessis get a 4 week ban for his kick I am inclined to agree French players are mistreated, however I do not believe this has cause to add additional punishment elsewhere when clearly this was 'not that big a deal'...

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    2:10 PM 26/03/2015

    Jesus Christ, then secure it between two pick ups and have them drive at you...

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    2:07 PM 26/03/2015

    I'm not sure Dan, whatever I'm doing is not intentional, I feel I'm being forced to react in this way due to irrational views on the matter...

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    2:05 PM 26/03/2015

    Oliver, I think perhaps the fact that the French are persecuted has got you a bit in a muddle.... Can we come to an agreement on Betsen and Lawes... are you saying you're happy for both to be yellow or neither to be yellow? Because I'll be happy if you pick one of the above and remain consistent... I'm simply saying here that I think Lawes does not deserve any penalty, card etc for his tackle AND neither did Betsen... What I don't want to hear is you say (I'm exaggerating here) "Lawes deserves a ban for life because of all the past unfair dealings with French players" - Please match each case on it's merits... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDq2OPXtZso What is your view on this tackle? To me I'd say it's fairly similar in body angles to Lawes tackle... I don't believe that should be penalised or carded... and once again dear Oliver, France has produced some classic rugby over many many years, some brilliant players, some 'legends' of the game... but it has produced some dirty games as well, maybe they were just well documented, but it seems to me that amongst the modern nations of the game, it had some of the worst! I'll provide some links for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a9mxJYnnYs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLql9IRrDzM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcFOmf6Q1lk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaxwekEM2Qo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzhQHfJSvrc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ_0aRfkasw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LieAndS_0qw I've not selected any in particular, just simply a bunch from the first page of youtube, I'm unaware of the nationality of the person who caused it all... If you like to see something interesting, I've typed in 'French rugby fights' and this is what youtube throws up: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=french+rugby+fights And replacing 'French' for 'English' throws up this: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=english+rugby+fights&spfreload=1

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    1:46 PM 26/03/2015

    @rdump0 English lesson? Why, moments are the turning effect of a force around a pivotal point. If you consider the human body and where your centre of gravity is you'd say it's around the belly button (on average) therefore, that would be considered a fixed point on Plisson, or 'pivotal point'... so when he gets smashed above that centre point his legs flip up as his upper body and Lawes falls to the ground... if you can't understand the difference between that or 'lifting' then there is no helping.

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    1:41 PM 26/03/2015

    What you're saying makes perfect sense, what I was mentioning however was in some reference to the lawsuits I hear are occurring in the US regarding concussions... I'm not entirely sure what these cases are entailing, I'm assuming something to do with inadequate rules to prevent head removal or something... It's just I cannot see how rugby could ever follow that line, unless players have not been allowed to see medical professionals after a head knock or something :/ - again, this sort of boils down to my previous comment on the fact that a lion tamer can't bitch if he one day gets nibbled...

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos
    12:56 PM 26/03/2015

    Not sure where "For me, pretending to be injured is as bad as deliberately trying to injure" fits into the point being discussed but by God I agree with you 100%.

    Reply
  •  felipeg
    felipeg
    11:03 AM 26/03/2015

    Took me some times to figure out what 1/2p means :-) Luckily I also read this article on the BBC regarding Halfpenny's technique! There is of course a difference between suing a player who injured you on one occasion and suing "the game itself" (officials, coaches...) for beeing rough. In english law there s a saying: "he who comes to equity must come with clean hands". I could use latin but then it would be too obvious I m a lawyer and I wouldn't dare coming here anymore :-) Anyway, 1/2p s technique beeing questionnable he could sue but he would likely loose. Especially now that its public knowledge. He knows he s doing it wrong and can't hide it. Even without any wrongdoing from the "victim" I don't think the outcome would be very different because as you said, one has to take some responsibility. I guess it would be different in case of serious injury following an infrigement of the concussion protocol for exemple. As any sport at professionnal level, rugby is unhealthy. Way more than many other sports because of its nature. Now with the money and pressure involved, it really needs rules and a respectful spirit more than ever. For me, pretending to be injured is as bad as deliberately trying to injure.

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    9:04 AM 26/03/2015

    Well explained, I apologise for my 'bullshitty shit shit comment'. It was beneath my usually intellectable standards. This thread is getting boring. Let's pretend we're Kiwis! Ur gay bru!

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    9:00 AM 26/03/2015

    *scratches his eyes out* This is getting tedious from both of you. Time to stop now.

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    8:57 AM 26/03/2015

    The law has been designed to prevent dangerous LIFTING play. Tackling is inherently dangerous. Every example you have cited refers to a player lifting another into the air, which adds an element of danger which isn't necessary in order to complete a tackle. Now there are a couple of things to point to the fact that you are wrong. 1. The laws you yourself have cited. 2. Nigel Owens said at the time that the tackle was fair. 3. The TMO and Nigel Owens reviewed the tackle and decided it was fair. Now I know that you feel that you are in the right, but surely you can't argue with these points?

    Reply
  •  jimmy23
    jimmy23
    11:33 PM 25/03/2015

    Haha it'll come one day FelipeG! It's clearly a incident that has very divided opinions, we could try and argue our views as much as we want but for now I think we just need to agree to disagree.

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    10:04 PM 25/03/2015

    I'm happy for lines to be drawn, please don't get me wrong, I don't want rugby to descend and become an all out brawl. However I believe spear tackles have been illegal for long time no? Dump tackles were legal however... Anyway, I agree that each of us consents to play the game, however, would you say it is fair that a player such as 1/2p sues, say World Rugby, because he was concussed so many times and has head aches or something? When it's clear that his tackling was bad... or for instance a player that has received head to head clashes on numerous occasions decides to sue? I don't.... it's not a case of 'be a man', as much as, understand the dangers involved... I go to the gym and lift weights... if someone decides to leap on the bar if I'm benching.. then yes 'suing' could be an appropriate action, but if for instance it slips from my hands because some sweaty guy held it last and I lose my grip and squash myself, surely I have to take some responsibility for knowing what I'm getting into..

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    9:58 PM 25/03/2015

    I think we're reaching an impassible gap here Canadian discontent, I totally disagree. intimidation or fear is necessary in both defence and attack... Did you never hear a coach tell you to 'smash' your opposition so that he doesn't want to run at you again? That is fear! You want the opposition 10 to be scared to hold the ball too long. Any player be scared to catch a high ball (because they know your timing is going to hurt!), the pack scared to scrum down, because they know the power you have... etc etc... if you don't appreciate or understand this, then as I said, we are at a void too large to fill...

    Reply
  •  rdump0
    rdump0
    9:31 PM 25/03/2015

    to lift: "to move or bring (something) upward from the ground". Before hit: feet on ground. After hit: whole body off ground. take an english lesson, and a physics lesson. 'Nuff said...

    Reply
  •  rdump0
    rdump0
    9:12 PM 25/03/2015

    no, the law has not been designed to prevent players from lifting players. the law has been designed to prevent dangerous play.

    Reply
  •  rdump0
    rdump0
    9:02 PM 25/03/2015

    Genius, you seem to be slowly getting it to... the problem is the moving object, not the one standing still. The movement makes the feet come off the ground. Will you be able to draw any sensible conclusion?

    Reply
  •  kadova
    kadova
    8:36 PM 25/03/2015

    Sean O'Brien is not a fly-half :o)

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos
    8:22 PM 25/03/2015

    He's had no stick from me mate. I didn't literally mean consider the distance the ball has travelled, more that the action was that much more complete; if Plisson had kicked, either the ball would have hit Lawes in the face or he'd still be swinging his kicking leg forward. So it's an illustrative way of saying Betsen's was *slightly* later than Lawes's. It's marginally late; Lawes's for me was spot-on. Splitting hairs though and I never intended to get into this detail. You'll notice I said I thought Betsen's yellow was wrong.

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    6:11 PM 25/03/2015

    This is a fantastic community. I grow tired of the 'you are ruining rugby' argument which gets trotted out from time to time, plus the misspelt contributions from the occasionally Kiwi whose parents leave him with the computer, but generally there are some great points made here. I love the growing number of French posters who usually make excellent points and bring an insight into a completely different culture. Their comments tend to be well-written in extremely impressive English. There are the odd 'keyboard warriors' who get stuck in from time to time, but generally the comments on here are enlightening. There are the same predictable responses every time a video is shared, but I enjoy it. I wish more people posted under their real names and pictures. I think it would encourage a little more honesty and respect.

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    6:05 PM 25/03/2015

    Bullshitty shit shit. There is nothing in the laws about how far the ball is and you know it! If Plisson had kicked the ball at the moment he passed it the ball would have been 30ft away. Oliver's example here is perfectly valid. Perhaps I'm leaping to Oliver's defence because he's received a lot of stick, some of it a wee bit personal, because he has stuck to his guns. Now he has shown an example of a near-identical hit, and you say it would have been a penalty. If this was late enough for a penalty then so was Lawes' tackle.

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos
    6:01 PM 25/03/2015

    Excellent post Gonzoman. I wonder though if taking passes deeper is the answer for the flyhalf. Counter-intuitively perhaps, if he plays even flatter and attacks the gainline more aggressively, someone like Lawes will have less opportunity to build up a head of steam, so you're actually slightly less likely to get mullered.

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    5:58 PM 25/03/2015

    DrG, are you trolling?

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    5:58 PM 25/03/2015

    That's a good video Oliver, thanks. Absolutely right, that shouldn't have been a yellow. You are forgetting of course the exacerbating factor of Betsen's Frenchness. I'm surprised he's not still banned.

    Reply
  •  gonzoman
    gonzoman
    3:59 PM 25/03/2015

    Two points: First, when I was playing (a mere two years ago) you made sure that if you were passing you did so in a position to minimize damage to yourself. We understood that if we wanted to be flatter and closer to the defense when we made the pass, we'd be at a higher risk of getting hit. So first and foremost, Plisson should have been expecting some sort of contact. Second, I have never been a forward, but I know that as a centre/winger/fullback I would regularly approach the line at close to top speed to cut down space and time. You don't see it all that often at first receiver because typically your forwards don't have the kind of pace needed to get there while the ball is still in the 10's hands. Lawes clearly does have the pace, and is willing to use it. Just because few other forwards can do it doesn't mean it's illegal when Lawes does - his freakish combination of athleticism and size means that he forces fly-halves to play the game differently. To draw a parallel, remember when Wilkinson could knock over penalties from anywhere with ease? He forced teams to be very careful not to give up penalties within 60m of their goal-line. No one complained, and now most international kickers can hit penalties like that. I'll bet in 10 years we'll see numerous athletic locks, and fly-halves taking passes deeper than they do now!

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos
    1:28 PM 25/03/2015

    I don't mean to take the piss, but could you rephrase that because I don't understand what you're saying...

    Reply
  •  oldflyhalf
    oldflyhalf
    1:16 PM 25/03/2015

    "a sterling" rugby player knows what is the right answer for an very aggressive opponent, aggressive in the negative sense of the term, malicious. ...the "deep" tackle, but legally, and more try.

    Reply
  •  felipeg
    felipeg
    12:03 PM 25/03/2015

    One must say, most people stay relatively cool and respectful here. This is part of why RD is so enjoyable. So good luck to old timers. Even if this topic is particularly tricky (Lawes being an awful vilain - haha) it's not that bad. I might even eventually find an agreement with Jimmy23!

    Reply
  •  jimmy23
    jimmy23
    11:40 AM 25/03/2015

    Obviously some people think the timing is fine and others don't. My point is we see a fair amount of tackles with this 'timing' (hence the 'last defender' point) in the game and for some reason this is one that a large number of people have decided to be outraged with. It seems to me that it's purely because Lawes is involved. As I've stated before, the whole reason people put in big hits is to intimidate and cause a bit of pain (within the realms of legality of course). It is and always has been a part of this sport.

    Reply
  •  jimmy23
    jimmy23
    11:26 AM 25/03/2015

    Read any of my previous comments in this thread and tell me how it is you came to the conclusion that if he were from another country I would be complaining? I've given my reasons as to why I think it's fine, why would change my views if it was someone else?

    Reply
  •  mise
    mise
    11:19 AM 25/03/2015

    re facebook and 'haters': facebook was killing the comment section here for about 2 years. People just commented over there instead. This was A) useless for RD and revenue B) lowered the tone for those of us who wanted to interact on RD, as RD Facebook isn't knowledgeable or respectful (that's a facebook thing, not an RD on Facebook thing specifically!) However if some of those facebook ppl are starting to come over here and interact, that's fine. Probably only the more committed will, we need more traffic anyway, and it'll be up to us old timers to keep things relatively respectful. Innit.

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    10:46 AM 25/03/2015

    "Actually that's completely irrelevant." You then go on to repeatedly support my point by referring to, and I quote: "the player is lifted" "the lifted player" "dangerous lifting tackles" I am sure that my colleague DrG (who is a proper doctor'n'everything) means momentum when he wrote moments. Technically to have lifted Plisson Lawes would have to have raised Plisson's centre of gravity. He did not. Instead as he hit Plisson the force of the impact caused Plisson to rotate. Plisson's head and shoulders then hit the ground first. The law you have extensively quoted is designed to prevent players from lifting players upwards and away from the ground, before driving them downwards. Lawes simply did not do this.

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos
    9:45 AM 25/03/2015

    Betsen was awesome. A wonderful exponent of the art of "flyhalf-hunting". In Oliver's 2003 example, I think the yellow card was too much. Probably was a penalty though. The ball was about 30ft in the air after being kicked by Wilkinson, so it was unequivocally late. Not by much, but late enough for a penalty, no more.

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos
    9:41 AM 25/03/2015

    I like a flyhalf who plays flat and attacks the line. Ironically, your best policy against Lawes might not be to sit deeper and pass faster, but to get up to the line even more quickly, before Lawes has had a chance to build up speed...

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos
    9:28 AM 25/03/2015

    I used to love that Aussie commentator on Oliver's Betsen video. No idea what his name is but think he's retired now? He was flattened. Absolutely creamed. Still lying flat on his face, sucking in the big ones. He got a beauty.

    Reply
  •  felipeg
    felipeg
    8:46 AM 25/03/2015

    Interesting point, law suits. I d hate a world where everything could lead to one, but there has to be a limit. The rule is that you can't hurt someone (assault and battery, or homicide). Sport, as medical practice, is an exception to that rule. As such it should receive a strict interpretation. Meaning as soon your behaviour is not part of the exception. There has to be consent from the victim, wich is the case for normal risks, inherent to the game as you said. As soon as there is an infringement of the game's rules... it gets tricky. why not sue someone who made a clear spear tackle and send you to the hospital for the rest of your life? I don't think "be a man" can be the answer to that. Still, spear tackles used to be allowed so i d undestand if people disagree on that point. In continental law at least you could be prosecuted without any complaint from the victim. I don't know if it ever happened tough. Imagine a player biting another (it happened to a fellow player VS a romanian team) and doing serious damage... it would be only fair that the biter is prosecuted imho. If not, then it's not sport anymore, its gladiator stuff.

    Reply
  •  oliver
    oliver
    8:05 AM 25/03/2015

    Funny you should mention Betsen, as he did tackle Wilkinson with exactly the same timing in the 2003 WC semi-final. Wilkinson did not land head first as Plisson did however, but guess what happened? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_f4cbieoBg Well, Betsen got a yellow card. The double standards are just plain to see, whether you admit it or not. And you can keep your stupid comments on "dirty teams" for yourself, I am done talking to you here.

    Reply
  •  colombes
    colombes
    6:53 AM 25/03/2015

    I still don't see the link between french league thuggery and this tackle... So as lawes demolition entreprise and lima/wilko physical defences... 140 deaf and mute comments Rdv for his next 'late' tackle (cause yes it will happen again) to try more objective analysis

    Reply
  • 12:13 AM 25/03/2015

    Doesn't get driven into the ground. Players have died from a tackle before, it doesn't only happen at a collapsed scrum.

    Reply
  • 12:12 AM 25/03/2015

    I agree Dr Fear that this hit is legal, but so was lambasting a defenseless receiver in the NFL until recently. It was also "part of the game" to do this to a QB just after he threw the ball. Even the most brutal league in the world, apologies to the NRL, has recognized the folly of this philosophy. Proper fear and intimidation is a 16 stone coming full speed on a crash ball and having to stand in the way. Both players have a chance to defend themselves. Pilsonn had none. At the very least lawes has a responsibility to ensure his head d

    Reply
  •  yannoche
    yannoche
    10:58 PM 24/03/2015

    I remember that one with Serge Betsen, being kicked in 2003. This guy was one of my heroes, he just scored a try before that 'regular tackle'. Makes me cry again !

    Reply
  •  themull
    themull
    10:17 PM 24/03/2015

    On a different note, man I loved Betson..he was a great player!

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    10:02 PM 24/03/2015

    Yes I cringe at the term 'hater' but frankly this is overblown nonsense..

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    9:59 PM 24/03/2015

    Why forget my comments about French or the saffas??? It's an entirely valid point, French rugby up until recent years was horrendously dirty... Will you honestly deny that??? As for the Saffas, it's common knowledge that they're hardly angels... I suppose you don't want to ignore comments on Brian Lima or Jonny Wilkinson?

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    9:51 PM 24/03/2015

    Genius, I tell you what you should do, get a nice thick long piece of wood, secure it either end at chest level, run full pelt into it... See if your feet come off the ground... Now, did that inanimate piece of wood lift you?

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    9:45 PM 24/03/2015

    You're probably best suited to tag rugby based on the above comments..

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    9:43 PM 24/03/2015

    So are suggesting to me that Dusatoir has a code or something that each player must fulfil before he tackles them? There's no hope for yourself if you honestly think Dusatoir wouldn't make the same tackle given half the chance... In fact Dusatoir aside, I'd hate to see the level of disgust, disrespect and sheer hatred if Serge Betson..

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    9:39 PM 24/03/2015

    Take a physics class and learn about moments... 'Nuff said..

    Reply
  •  rdump0
    rdump0
    9:06 PM 24/03/2015

    yes! plisson has hit feet on the ground before the tackle and lands on his neck. How can he not have been lifted by Lawes. Did Plisson jump into the ground by himself?

    Reply
  •  rdump0
    rdump0
    8:57 PM 24/03/2015

    Spot on, that's exactly it. The lateness of the tackle is quite irrelevant here.

    Reply
  •  rdump0
    rdump0
    8:53 PM 24/03/2015

    well something tells me that if Lawes was welsh (or french, irish, scottish, you name it), you'd be saying exactly the opposite...

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos
    8:22 PM 24/03/2015

    And he moisturises too... https://twitter.com/stroudos/status/580457134992814080 Now we know his secret! These unsuspecting fly halves see that baby soft skin and assume he must be harmless.

    Reply
  •  frenchie
    frenchie
    8:01 PM 24/03/2015

    From a diffrent angle: Plisson has been poor all game and was too slow passing the ball! This allows your opponent to come in hard. Hard lesson for him. I do think tho that Lawes knew what he was doing. He was late in the tackle . You can commit initially but also should be able to realise you're late and stop or slow down. He meant to hurt. This kind of behavior will at the end cost him and his team.

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos
    5:32 PM 24/03/2015

    No it doesn't! It says lifting and dropping or driving.

    Reply
  •  oliver
    oliver
    4:13 PM 24/03/2015

    To add to the debate, I just saw this on another website (and an English one, mind you) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_f4cbieoBg&feature=youtu.be 2003, exact same timing of the tackle. And Betsen got a yellow card for it.

    Reply
  •  felipeg
    felipeg
    11:07 AM 24/03/2015

    that's why i m against 4x4 also :-)

    Reply
  •  felipeg
    felipeg
    10:59 AM 24/03/2015

    As someone stated, it is late in any case. Question being wether it is acceptable or not. Maybe the timing in itself was acceptable. Its not late by much. Its the whole thing that looks nasty to me.

    Reply
  •  felipeg
    felipeg
    10:52 AM 24/03/2015

    "nansy pansy". just kidding. education can do the job better than laws. but reading the comments its pretty clear most people crave for this kind of stuff. and to a certain degree i must confess i do too.

    Reply
  •  jimmy23
    jimmy23
    10:41 AM 24/03/2015

    I agree that it's a different situation, but I don't think it changes the idea of the tackle being 'late' as such, which is more what I was getting at. My point is, people seem to change what they perceive as 'late' according to the incident at hand, but surely regardless of the situation a tackle is either 'late' or it isn't right?

    Reply
  •  10stonenumber10
    10stonenumber10
    10:24 AM 24/03/2015

    I had my full contact career ended by a concussive neck snapper from some physical monstrosity playing what was supposed to be a fun and friendly game. Smashed me, picked me up with the ball to show off to his mates, i took a kick to the head in the process, he ran and speared me. Only one person on my team took exception to it, the rest stood around laughing with the monster while I was dug head first in the turf trying to remember where I was, and whether I could feel my legs. It happens. I could cross the road tomorrow and be ploughed down by a 4x4. Would probably hurt less too.

    Reply
  •  colombes
    colombes
    10:15 AM 24/03/2015

    'last defender' point is interesting, but out of subject and context. the attacking player will have anticipate this tackle such like the last defender who has to make a do-or-die decision. i don't think fly halves are anticipating to be smashed after each of their pass... or maybe when they play against.. Lawes. Isn't it his goal, after all ;)?

    Reply
  •  colombes
    colombes
    9:58 AM 24/03/2015

    You-do-understand it's a rugby forum... do you? The sort of place where 'ignorant' and 'intelligent' posters are free to express. I too believe the Facebook page may have brought some haters, but that's a kind of mathematic rule. Forgetting the trolls and your unfortunate comments on french or saffa fans or players... i'm more interested on debate: On Lawes case is a perfect example opened to debate. For me, this tackle is brutally textbook and Owens choose the good decision during the match. However, i'm worried by the repetition of Lawes short 'late' tackles where he never got the player and...the ball. Deliberate or not, Intimidation or not, it's a debate. How to protect a player who wasn't aware to be destroyed (after the pass was made) without penalising a truly committed tackler? is also another question. It's up to everyone to elevate the debate rather to fall in crass finger pointings and ThankyouverymuchI'llbehereMaybeNotEveryWeek) to recall it ,)

    Reply
  •  jimmy23
    jimmy23
    9:54 AM 24/03/2015

    Just thought I'd bring something up in regards to the so called "lateness" of the tackle. Here's a scenario that we see ALOT in the game. Attacking player makes a break, draws in the last defender and makes the final pass for the try, gets absolutely clobbered by the final defender just after the ball is passed. If people think this tackle by Lawes is late, then shouldn't all those be deemed late as well? Or do people suddenly not mind that scenario as a try is scored? Let's see how many people bring it up next time we see that eh?

    Reply
  •  felipeg
    felipeg
    9:31 AM 24/03/2015

    I did accept it. I was hurt once. Twice... Got a broken foot. Then a concussion and neck injury. I dont mention fingers. And I stopped playing when I was 18. I used to love creating or takings gaps. Combining passes. And even charging straight ahead. And then it was all over because of some mere brute like those you admire. Some real intellectual whose idea of the game was "me love crushing bones and smashing people hahahah".

    Reply
  •  felipeg
    felipeg
    9:23 AM 24/03/2015

    As far as I m concerned, Pape needed a good long ban, french or not. Don't remember if it was Wilko or O'Driscoll who said - about the french i think ! - something like "it's not funny to play anymore when you have big bastards trying to hurt you". Thats my point: i d sooner admire creation than destruction. With teams of player only trying to hurt themselves, we woul'dnt have seen such a game.

    Reply
  •  felipeg
    felipeg
    9:09 AM 24/03/2015

    And I kindly invite you to read a politeness guide or something, regarding "expressing a disagreing opinion withoud beeing an ass". To you rugby is about hurting people, fair enough. To me it never was. Its kinda funny that you use the word backwards given that you are the one shouting in caps that you want to hurt people. When I was 14 an english player decided that tackling could do more damage if he sitted on my head. Guess what? He was right! Concussion, headaches... took me still a couple of years to realise I d better quit playing myself even if I loved the game.

    Reply
  •  oliver
    oliver
    8:18 AM 24/03/2015

    of course I judge him by his actions on the pitch! What else should I judge him by, he's a rugby player. I'd also like to add I'm the kind of guy who much prefers a Shane Williams sidestep to a Bastareaud/Jamie Roberts type straight ahead charge. "Flattening people" is not what I prefer about rugby, the game has many other enjoyable aspects you know........

    Reply
  •  oliver
    oliver
    8:15 AM 24/03/2015

    well just watch a Dusautoir tribute, then a Courtney Lawes one. And if you don't see the difference, there is absolutely nothing I can do for you.

    Reply
  •  oliver
    oliver
    8:13 AM 24/03/2015

    Opinions are obviously very divided on this hit, and Lawes'critics aren't all French, obviously. My personal problem with this, as I've said above, is that he drives Plisson's head into the ground. Now on a sidenote, I think you have some serious growing up to do and accept the fact that sometimes, some people may not share your opinion. And that does not automatically make them "pathetic" or "haters" (I seriously cannot believe you used that term......). I respect your point of view, you should learn to do the same.

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    6:05 AM 24/03/2015

    "I honestly cannot believe the levels of patheticness many of you have stopped too" ThankyouverymuchI'llbehereallweek.

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    6:04 AM 24/03/2015

    God, hitting 'like' to this comment felt so narcissistic. You know you are English when, sitting in a darkened kitchen at 6am, on your own, clicking 'like' on a nice comment about yourself feels arrogant. Thanks. I'm trying to hide the fact that I know nothing about rugby.

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    3:56 AM 24/03/2015

    Dan, Some of the comments on this thread are your best work yet! Thank you for the humour on what is apparently a highly outrageous scene in the rugby world! Best wishes Me

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    3:51 AM 24/03/2015

    I have to emulate many comments and say how shocked I am that this is apparently so controversial... Brian Lima had been f'ing people up for years before this, Jonny Wilkinson made a big hit on a Frenchman that sort of turned and went shoulder first etc etc.. I'm sick of negative comments regarding mismatch, hit in the back, etc... I'm wondering if we've got an influx of trolls or the target of some sort of troll convention or something? Are you not all rugby players? It appears that even amongst the 'haters' the general consensus is that Lawes was committed... So how exactly would you like him to tackle? Tap the bloke on the shoulder so he turns round then hug him to the ground? Lets say it was a dummy, Plisson would have been smashed holding the ball... So is that still wrong? I honestly cannot believe the levels of patheticness many of you have stopped too... It's no wonder the game has descended into yellow cards for people jumping to compete for the ball but not being the catcher.. And the French bretheren on here, whether you care to admit it or not, your nation has produced some of the dirtiest scenes rugby has ever seen, yet this causes you outrage? South Africa isn't exactly a clean nation and even Victor Matfield said he has to improve his boxing skills when playing in France! So where the hell have all the fans from 'before' gone too? Or are you donning your 'holier than thou' robes because your nation hasn't produced a good 10 man fist fight in a while? For crying out loud man the f*ck up! Even the women's rugby has more testosterone and less oestrogen than you guys!

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    3:35 AM 24/03/2015

    Oliver, when a player turns to pass the ball and presents their back, do you think Dusatoir will say "oh no he's not looking, I'll just kind of pull out, or wait until he turns around" or the French equivalent?? Don't be naive!

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    3:32 AM 24/03/2015

    'Lawes smashing players way smaller than him" ....right ok, so at what? Probably 6'7" and over 18 stone, Lawes just ambles around until a player the same height and weight happens to get the ball... Yeh, I like that, a game where only the small people can tackle everyone and the big people can only tackle those the same size... I suppose it adds more dimension, height charts and weigh scales before the game having a quick meeting with the opponents before the game just to remember exactly who you can and cannot tackle... Sounds like a wonderful sport... You start it up and take all the other nancies with you, might give the rest of us a chance to get on with our sport without any anchors being dragged behind!

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    3:25 AM 24/03/2015

    You're doing a good job of ruining it whether you mean to or not.. "Stamping in the ruck" was never legal as long as I knew it, rucking however was legal! And it lead to speedier breakdowns because people didn't try to have a nap! Tackling people in the air? Why does this keep coming up? No one said this should be legal?!?

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    3:25 AM 24/03/2015

    You're doing a good job of ruining it whether you mean to or not.. "Stamping in the ruck" was never legal as long as I knew it, rucking however was legal! And it lead to speedier breakdowns because people didn't try to have a nap! Tackling people in the air? Why does this keep coming up? No one said this should be legal?!?

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    3:21 AM 24/03/2015

    Interesting you mentioned lawsuits here, I personally don't understand how someone could come into this game then after some time attempt to sue the overseers... I don't fancy getting smacked about the head a bunch of times due to; firstly, not wanting to endure an uncomfortable experience like it, and secondly due to the health risks... So I don't try to become a boxer... You can't tell me a rugby player or future player watches the game and thinks "there appears to be no inherent risks to this game for which I myself should take personal responsibility for... Game on!"

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    3:15 AM 24/03/2015

    The problem is CC, I believe you are throwing this hit into the same pile as taking someone in the air??? I'm talking about legal intimidation as JonnyEnglish has summed up below, not illegal play... "This type of his could end someone's career"? Come off it, a scrum could end someone's life, an innocuous awkward tackle such as the ones 1/2p makes could end his own career.. If you're playing 10 and you're aware Lawes might 'end your career' then you're going to ship that ball a lot quicker and as such you'll make more mistakes therefore Lawes job of intimidation is done here!

    Reply
  •  jonnyenglish
    jonnyenglish
    1:17 AM 24/03/2015

    Certainly would've shaken Plisson up and put pressure on him, as well as the other backs knowing big Courtney is around, I'd say that's a gain.

    Reply
  •  jonnyenglish
    jonnyenglish
    1:17 AM 24/03/2015

    Hahaha, I'm loving some of your comments here.

    Reply
  •  jonnyenglish
    jonnyenglish
    1:14 AM 24/03/2015

    Read the laws, this is no where near high, and in the back? Are you blind? He hit's him from the side! Of course he goes out to hurt him and pressure him, we all do that, it's called playing Rugby. Every tackle has the potential to injure. Look at the tackle on Morgan Stoddart in 2011, he broke his leg but we didn't ban that kind of tackle because it was perfectly legal and just unfortunate. If Plisson had been injured it'd be have tragic, but not Lawes fault. He's not targeted Plisson because he is Plisson, he's targeted the number 10 because a) he has the ball, b) it's his job to pressure the 10. Of COURSE you hit him hoping he'd be shaken, that's the WHOLE POINT of pressuring the 10. Honestly what kind of backwards rugby have you been playing if that's not a thing?!

    Reply
  •  jonnyenglish
    jonnyenglish
    12:56 AM 24/03/2015

    He looks marginally offside at the Ruck, can't tell from the given angles, not enough to give it though if you look at what NZ do every time they play.

    Reply
  •  jonnyenglish
    jonnyenglish
    12:45 AM 24/03/2015

    Sorry but I disagree with the "game has grown up" comment, I used to play blind side and I used to love lining up the fly-half and smashing him, causing him to change the way he played and make mistakes, it's about pressure, even if he'd shipped the ball I'd pull out of the tackle just in time to make sure he'd know I was there. I'd never hit someone in the air, that's just dangerous. I agree that it takes courage to make the pass anyway, but I'd be very hessitent about branding this sort of hit illegal. On a side note: There's no way that Lawes could have pulled out of that tackle without going through Plisson without his arms, being definitely illegal and risk of serious injury to Plisson.

    Reply
  • 11:37 PM 23/03/2015

    No I think the game is more about courage than intimidation and fear. It takes courage to make that pass when you know you are going to get smashed. It does not take courage to make that hit. When I started playing I thought it was the greatest thing in the world to do that, I even used to smash guys in the air on kickoffs. But I, along with the game, have grown up. That type of hit could end someone's career, and he didn't even have the ball. No one should have to fear anything when they no longer have the ball.

    Reply
  •  jimmy23
    jimmy23
    11:28 PM 23/03/2015

    Safe to say this incident has stirred up one s**t storm of a comments section.

    Reply
  •  themull
    themull
    11:20 PM 23/03/2015

    This is how you deal with Lawes lining you up ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK_ZjOSMV_E

    Reply
  •  45678
    45678
    9:54 PM 23/03/2015

    Slo-motion should not be admissible as evidence IMHO. It always makes it look much worse. The timing from lawyers only looks out in slo-mo but in real time is fractional.

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    8:45 PM 23/03/2015

    World Rugby need to listen to us, because we could make rugby a lot safer and a lot more fun to watch at the drop of a hat. I vote that we replace the scrum with 'duck duck goose'. Quicker to get over and done with, less chance of injury, and it will be interesting to see what new way Brian Moore finds to get really, really angry.

    Reply
  •  10stonenumber10
    10stonenumber10
    5:16 PM 23/03/2015

    It is a rough game. You are coached to HIT someone, not to tackle them. I have been on the end of hits like this. Obviously nowhere near the gargantuan forces involved... but still bone jarring late hits. I'm sure it isn't the first time Plisson has been obliterated either. Playing fly half has a very steep learning curve, in a game of percentages, you think, you get sunk. If you've got any sort of dog about you, you just get up and accept it. You also accept the fact that at some point against England, you are going to have 6ft7 of Northampton's finest flying towards your rib cage. If I was a 2nd row rather than a featherweight fly half, I would do the exact same thing.

    Reply
  •  castafeletti
    castafeletti
    4:48 PM 23/03/2015

    este video no se puede ver en colombia, porque la persona que lo publico no lo permite... muy mal me parece

    Reply
  •  felipeg
    felipeg
    4:06 PM 23/03/2015

    Unnecessary is the word. You put your finger on it. So it's not only late and disgracious, its useless... unless you hope for Plisson not to get up. Unless you hope you did some damage. Oh and unless you hope to get a youtube video of your tackle, with heavy metal as sountdrack...

    Reply
  •  welshosprey
    welshosprey
    3:31 PM 23/03/2015

    He gained absolutely nothing and could have injured Plisson. Have a look at the video of Lawes trying to do the same thing to Sean O'Brien and Lawes ends up on his ass.

    Reply
  •  lucius
    lucius
    3:00 PM 23/03/2015

    It's dangerous, brutal, not a spear tackle, nor illegal anyway. Unnecessary roughness

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    2:32 PM 23/03/2015

    And he calls his mother twice a week, gives money to charity, is good with animals and respects his elders.

    Reply
  •  moddeur
    moddeur
    2:31 PM 23/03/2015

    Maybe ok for the timing, but regardless of your momentum if you keep on holding to a player who lands head first you are causing a dangerous tackle. You can't argue that "it's not his fault, it's momentum" and that "it was a proper tackle" simultaneously, and yet not take dangerous play into consideration. If it were Betsen smashing Wilkinson I'd certainly say the same thing. PS: IRB section for referees on dangerous tackles: "Tackles making contact with the head or neck OR which might cause damage to the neck or head" PPS: IRB definition "A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is brought to the ground"

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    2:30 PM 23/03/2015

    Excellent point, well made.

    Reply
  •  timh
    timh
    2:29 PM 23/03/2015

    Not sure that a ball in the air *is* comparable to this tackle... If the ball is in the air you have a reasonable expectation your oppo will jump to catch it, his alternatives are limited to letting *you* take it, or running away. However Plisson had many more options - pass, kick, go to ground, or dummy/step. With hindsight he probably should've tried to step... Wales vs. Scotland had a couple of in-the-air challenges that were appropriately carded.

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    2:29 PM 23/03/2015

    If Plisson was in a wheelchair and then Lawes had tackled him like that I'd have been pretty unimpressed. How would the keyboard heroes react if Lawes had tackled Plisson's guide dog like that? Eh? Eh? Lawes should spend time in jail because nobody, and I mean nobody, should be allowed to get away with tackling a hypothetically wheelchair-bound blind individual.

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    2:26 PM 23/03/2015

    I want Oliver to be able to dislike players because I want to be able to dislike Chris Ashton and Mike Phillips. I think Mike Phillips is probably the most objectionable human being I've ever had to watch on a TV screen, apart from maybe Katie Hopkins. Let's keep this discussion about what Lawes did or did not do.

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    2:22 PM 23/03/2015

    All tackles could potentially lead to a very serious injury. Sadly accidents happen. Tough cases make bad laws. We shouldn't rewrite the laws because Courtney Lawes hit someone so hard that they folded.

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    2:21 PM 23/03/2015

    It would be even better if another player had to crawl through his legs before he could move. I'd love to see a massive prop trying to squeeze through a scrum half's legs.

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    2:18 PM 23/03/2015

    Oh God yes, this is absolutely what they should do next time. And the tackled player should have to spin around three times and touch the floor before they are allowed to move again.

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos
    2:15 PM 23/03/2015

    Has he done anything else? Dominates line-outs; wins almost every ball he jumps for, is a massive pain in the arse on opposition throws. Pressurises ball-carriers with phenomenal line speed. Very impressive work-rate in the loose, securing shitloads of ball without giving away penalties, (something some people seem to want to level at him). Runs excellent support play including providing an outlet for the backs to offload - eg that one last year where Burrell was denied by Halfpenny's head - Lawes involved about three times in that move. Similar examples in this year's competition.

    Reply
  •  mise
    mise
    11:53 AM 23/03/2015

    core issue it seems is actually the placement of the player onto the ground, not the tackle. Tackle looks worse in slo mo, but is touch and go. Placement is more an issue as players have a duty to place the player properly after a tackle. I know that sounds weird, but that's part of what is, technically, supposed to happen. So even if Lawes didn't deliberately tip him, the momentum of the tackle caused a tip. So, I reckon lawes had a duty to try to prevent the head from going down first. What seems to have happened is that lawes didn't do that, and may have done the opposite. He may have actually driven it a bit. Look at where the head and feet are at the very end. Owens seems to have seen the tackle and timing and called it as fine - that's fine - but did he watch it through to the end? Possibly not - he had a game to watch! Lawes may end up getting a ban from the citing comm for that bit at the end.

    Reply
  •  finedisregard
    finedisregard
    11:42 AM 23/03/2015

    Denis, you're the guy that is responsible for ruining rugby. What if a player is the process of committing to a tackle and the ball carrier gets the ball away a .001 of a second before? You want to hear a whistle blown? It takes more time to tackle than it does to pass. Take your reformer mentality to politics or education but please leave rugby alone.

    Reply
  •  gazza
    gazza
    11:38 AM 23/03/2015

    Another hit on a half back. Yawn. Don't get me wrong, it was timed ok so no penalty. I think there was some malice in trying to drive his head into the floor but that happens when dominating a player like that. Questionable but was given the benefit of the doubt. My issue is this: Has he done anything else besides become anonymous in tight games against a dominating pack? No.

    Reply
  •  oldflyhalf
    oldflyhalf
    11:22 AM 23/03/2015

    In my oppinion, that's the essence in "the matter Lawes": premeditation, or not, of the action with the clear purpose to hurt the opponent. ...yes, or not ? Lawes, probably, will must to play next year on Parc des Princes. :)

    Reply
  •  s_conner
    s_conner
    11:22 AM 23/03/2015

    Some people on this thread need to get a grip. Doesn't matter about the context of the game, the player's history or the sides involved. Ultimately it's a huge tackle that any forward would want to make during a big game. I really don't see any issue with the timing and technique. Yes the ball's just about gone, but anyone who's played rugby will know that this can happen when you're committed to a tackle. Mind you, I've rarely seen someone get hit that hard - wallop!

    Reply
  •  timh
    timh
    11:16 AM 23/03/2015

    Ball was long out of the ruck - there's no offside in open play

    Reply
  •  jimmy23
    jimmy23
    11:13 AM 23/03/2015

    Something tells me if Lawes was Welsh, or anything but English, you wouldn't be making these comments ;) Also Plisson is 92KG, Lawes is 118. I would hardly call that, "half his size".

    Reply
  •  bunn
    bunn
    11:12 AM 23/03/2015

    Should we take away some of Shane Williams' tries because he beat a tight 5 forward to score? It's a game of mismatches and how you play those mismatches decides whether you win the game. Big guy v small guy, fast guy v slow guy. Take that away and we have rugby league.

    Reply
  •  bunn
    bunn
    11:02 AM 23/03/2015

    I fascinated by the statement that you don't like his character?! Judging someone via your interpretation of their actions on the pitch and then calling that their character is possibly symbolic of the social media age! As a player Lawes also has a very good disciplinary record, he was banned during the last world cup for reckless use of the knee, but apart from that he's never been in any trouble as far as I know. So disliking him for flattening people is strange, cos that's a large part of the appeal of rugby for many people.

    Reply
  •  timh
    timh
    10:59 AM 23/03/2015

    ??? Xavier Rush clothes-lined Lawes, from the front when Lawes still had the ball, so I'm not sure how that is similar to Lawes' hit on Plisson? The height & timing for Lawes on Plisson was deemed ok by ref and TMO. If Dussatoir had thumped Ford then I'm also sure Twickenham would've called for a card - its up to the ref to decide whether it was legal, not the fans/audience. Law 10.4-j covers a Sam Warburton tip tackle (also vs. France), not a momentum-based result. And no, I'm pleased to see any player leave the field injured. If it is due to foul play then the player should be sanctioned. If not, then it is, unfortunately, just part of the game.

    Reply
  •  oneeye
    oneeye
    10:30 AM 23/03/2015

    As I said, curve ball. The intention behind the law is to prevent serious injury. It is not a stretch to see one of these causing a neck injury that ends a career.

    Reply
  •  timh
    timh
    10:08 AM 23/03/2015

    I disagree that a waist-high tackle would've been safer - Plisson would've been cut in half and at much greater risk of back/rib injuries. Momentum from the tackle rolled Plisson up onto his neck. If Lawes had let go after the initial hit, or tried to pull out, he would've been pinged for no arms. Ref+TMO decided it was within the laws of the game. Whether the laws need to be updated is another question.

    Reply
  •  welshosprey
    welshosprey
    9:45 AM 23/03/2015

    Another barely legal hit on a flyhalf, half his size. Lawes is pathetic.

    Reply
  •  felipeg
    felipeg
    9:41 AM 23/03/2015

    I must say I was horrified rather than impressed. It may be "legal" (which depends on the definition of "late"), but its ugly imo. Of course you don't have to get all pysicality out of the game. But high late tackle in the back... no, never gonna find it beautiful, sorry. The intention to hurt would ne part of the game? If this is so and clear for everyone, really, I m out. Being better, stronger, even causing pain, face to face, absolutely agree that its part of the game. Hurting someone hoping he's not gonna get up? Or at least he s gonna be shaken? No way. On the field I would never target someone. A space, a number, not a guy specificaly. Except for...guys like Lawes.

    Reply
  •  colombes
    colombes
    9:35 AM 23/03/2015

    For me, it was legal pressure. Always impressed by his commitment. But i was far more interrogative on the timing, regarding his precedent tackles

    Reply
  •  oliver
    oliver
    9:23 AM 23/03/2015

    @ Dan: I just reread the law on spear tackles and.........you're right. Maybe it needs to be changed cause this tackle could have caused a very serious injury. @Stroudos: I believe Lawes is playing perfectly, to the limit of the laws. Am I simply allowed to dislike the guy?? lots of players made "spectacular and dramatic" tackles on guys their own size you know. Admiring him is kinda sick in my opinion.

    Reply
  •  oliver
    oliver
    9:17 AM 23/03/2015

    Andrew, you don't know me, so don't make assumptions. I've played rugby for a long time. But maybe I'm not allowed to an opinion as I was never pro myself? How many caps do you have? That being said, I already explained my dislike for Lawes above. Basically he's like a schoolyard bully, never smashing people his own size. Also, he has been banned before. So don't pretend his rap sheet is so clean.

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos
    9:11 AM 23/03/2015

    Oliver Lawes tackles forwards all day long. Those tackles don't get posted on rugbydump because they're less spectacular and dramatic. When you tackle a forward you usually only have to cover a couple of metres; to reach the flyhalf from a set-piece you need to have covered at least 10m and to have done so very quickly indeed. If you're a forward you're likely to be running into a smaller person and at full speed. Should you, on recognising the disparity in size, soften your tackling technique to be considerate? Or capitalise on your relative strength and smash him? Bearing in mind of course that this is what you're paid to do and am have been training hard to do for all your adult life.

    Reply
  •  jimmy23
    jimmy23
    9:08 AM 23/03/2015

    I seriously doubt it would have been any different if he was French, I don't think there is a conspiracy theory out there to punish French players. Apologies for making you say "it's irrelevant" again. I admittedly don't watch a lot of French rugby so it's hard for me to comment on Dusautoir smashing other forwards on a regular basis. But Lawes did not lift him? So he has no need to "bring him down safely"? The sheer power of the tackle made Plisson do that, what are you suggesting Lawes could have done? Not tackle as hard?

    Reply
  •  oliver
    oliver
    8:54 AM 23/03/2015

    Yes I am French. To be honest, if Lawes was French, I would not be complaining but I would not be glorifying it either. Also, if he was French, I have serious doubts as to whether he would have escaped punishment....... Again: I said it's irrelevant myself. Do I have to spell it out? (however some players do make dominant tackles on other forwards consistently, Dusautoir comes to mind and I've never seen him smash a player from behind) Finally: it's the tackler's responsability to bring the other player down safely. In this case, he did not.

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    8:45 AM 23/03/2015

    Lawes didn't lift him, so it's hard to see how it can be called a tip tackle.

    Reply
  •  danknapp
    danknapp
    8:43 AM 23/03/2015

    There was zero lifting from Lawes. Plisson just folded. If you lift a player then you have a responsibility to return them to earth safely. Lawes just hit him sickeningly hard.

    Reply
  •  jimmy23
    jimmy23
    8:41 AM 23/03/2015

    Judging by your picture I'm guessing you're French. Can I ask this, if Lawes was French, would you be complaining? I think the comment "he never does it on forwards" is irrelevant as well. Be honest, how often do you see a forward make a completely dominating tackle like this on another forward? Very rarely in my opinion. Also the idea that he should get cited for a 'tip tackle' is a bit silly really. Sheer power from the tackle is the reason Plisson landed like that, Lawes didn't lift him like that. Nigel Owens was right there and when you consider how tight referees these days are on that sort of thing, if he found it okay then there's nothing wrong with it. If he got cited for that then you might as well ask players to "not tackle so hard".

    Reply
  •  oliver
    oliver
    8:18 AM 23/03/2015

    Oh I admit it's irrelevant! I even said so. I simply find Laws quite despicable as a character, but that's my personal opinion of him and it has nothing to do with the laws of the game. (by the way our differing opinions about this may come from the fact I was always a back, and a rather skinny one, thus more on the receiving end of these types of things!)

    Reply
  •  oliver
    oliver
    7:55 AM 23/03/2015

    well here we go again, Lawes with his trademark move: smashing players way smaller than him - from behind. I'm sure he's proud of himself too. Funny how we never see him doing a big tackle on another forward, with all his "athleticism" and all......Anyways, that's just a reflection on his character, but I had to let that out. Now as for the referee's decision, at first I agreed with him. Then I saw that Plisson lands head first and his legs go past horizontal: tip tackle, at least a yellow. Also, Lawes was clearly offside. Now the only positive thing for me is that French management has finally stooped to the other teams'level by citing players. First time ever I believe? Or can someone correct me?

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos
    7:27 AM 23/03/2015

    Legal pressure on the flyhalf. Sans doute. In slow motion the ball has already gone away. In real time he is smashed during the movement of passing the ball.

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos
    7:24 AM 23/03/2015

    Best Twitter reaction I saw was David Flatman's: @davidflatman: F**k wearing one of those from Lawes! Retirement never felt so good.

    Reply
  •  stroudos
    stroudos
    7:23 AM 23/03/2015

    I'm delighted this has its own RD post, to add to the "fly halves smashed by Courtney Lawes" archive. Annoyed though that some commenters see it as a point of debate rather than simply admiring one of the most aesthetically pleasing aspects of this game. His line speed and athleticism are phenomenal. In every game I think I've ever played, there has always been a concerted effort to "put pressure on the 10". Anything you can do to limit his options, force him into passing predictably or stand deep or be afraid to attack the line. If you're the flyhalf and you feel like you're going to be snapped in half by a human Exocet if you don't get the ball away quickly or too deep, you're going to have your team playing too deep and on the back foot. So it is tactically effective. And as Mr Owens clearly stated (and confirmed after he'd seen the replays), the execution was perfect. Watch any rugby tackle in slow-motion and it will look brutal.

    Reply
  •  upthejumper
    upthejumper
    1:26 AM 23/03/2015

    Spot on!

    Reply
  •  upthejumper
    upthejumper
    1:25 AM 23/03/2015

    Hot Ham - newsflash: it's a full contact sport! Every tackle has the intent to hurt to some degree, to stop the player and knock him to ground, otherwise we'd all be playing touch! Yes, there are rules against high tackles, taking playing out in the air, foul play etc but it won't be half the game it is if you take the brutal physically out of rugby. I'd have to start following NRL instead...

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    1:15 AM 23/03/2015

    I watched the tail end of a program this afternoon which was something to do with the 6N history, they had lots of famous names commenting - Wilkinson, Betson, Dominguez etc.. A very interesting point was a part where it got to an England France game where Betson was told to target JW, that is what he did, he gave JW a bad day at the office and eventually he went off looking a bit ragged - I'm not sure on the outcome of the game, but I used to pride myself in smashing the fly half when I played open side and if it ruined his day, made him pass earlier, pass badly etc then my job was done. Intimidation and fear is as much part of the game as anything else.

    Reply
  •  upthejumper
    upthejumper
    1:14 AM 23/03/2015

    Sorry, don't agree. Watch it again in real time: his head was down as Plisson began to swing his arms in the pass. Nigel Owens immediately stated "Tackle's fair, timing was good." and he had the best view of it! Canadian content nailed it: what is he to do, get dummied?

    Reply
  •  drg
    drg
    1:10 AM 23/03/2015

    Agree totally Jimmy, in fact it could be said that if Lawes even tried to pull out if would have ended with a possible shoulder charge/barge or something. I was glad the officials got on with it. Good hit, good decision and great play by both teams.

    Reply
  •  jimmy23
    jimmy23
    12:45 AM 23/03/2015

    I'm surprised at how much controversy this hit has stirred. It was legal, Lawes launched himself before Plisson passed. Was was he supposed to do, stop mid air? If it was clear that he could have pulled out of the tackle in time then it's illegal. I don't know why people seemed to be upset about the fact that Lawes did it for 'intimidation' or to try and cause a bit of pain. Would people not agree that's the point of putting a big hit?

    Reply
  •  jambonchaud
    jambonchaud
    12:05 AM 23/03/2015

    Well, I've been arguing with a friend about that one and was defending Lawes originally but if you read the IRB rules it says late and dangerous tackles are not permitted, perdiod. There is no precise definition of what late/dangerous tackles actually are. Unless I missed something. The ball was gone before Lawes hit Plisson but he was also commited to the tackle before the pass... So it's a bit of a grey area. That said, Lawes intentions are clearly to hurt Plisson, and not to take him down. Which sounds and look definitely dangerous. At the replay, should have been at least a penalty to France.

    Reply
  • 11:05 PM 22/03/2015

    Agreed, I have to disagree with RD, this was not perfectly timed as his target no longer had the ball. When I was young I dreamed of making this tackle, now I just see a completely vulnerable player getting smashed and nothing more than intimidation happening. Still, hard to penalize as what is he to do, get dummied? I do think his technique should be studied though, sure seems to happen with him a lot.

    Reply
  •  colombes
    colombes
    10:53 PM 22/03/2015

    Brutal but perfectly legal! One remark though: I've noticed Lawes very often smashes flyhalves in the movement, but, when the ball is already gone away. What's your opinion: Legal pression on the flyhalf or deliberate dangerous timing?

    Reply
  •  10stonenumber10
    10stonenumber10
    10:52 PM 22/03/2015

    Mon Dieu.

    Reply


Great Tries

View All

Big Hits & Dirty Play

View All

See It To Believe It

View All

Funnies

View All

Amateur

View All

Player Features

View All
Courtney Lawes lays into another unsuspecting flyhalf, this time Jules Plisson | RugbyDump - Rugby News & Videos