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Monday Nov 21, 2016

New Zealand avenge previous loss with bruising win over Ireland

New Zealand avenge previous loss with bruising win over Ireland
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Ireland were unable to repeat the heroics of their famous victory in Chicago, as the All Blacks avenged that loss with a 21-9 win in front of 51 000 fans in Dublin. It was a bruising clash and Ireland now have injury concerns, while the All Blacks have two players cited for foul play.

Robbie Henshaw, CJ Stander and Rob Kearney suffered head knocks while Johnny Sexton has a hamstring injury. They face the Wallabies next, who are on a high from their 25-23 win over France.

Injuries are a concern for Ireland coach Joe Schmidt, who says it will make the few weeks of Test matches difficult to assess overall.

“Well, we’re going to potentially see some different personnel and it’s hard to assess a series when you go match by match because the personnel are quite different. Obviously, there was success against Canada in that there were a number of guys, I think the number of new caps was us trying to take an opportunity to have a bit of a look, and to work with a wider group.

“We’ll probably be afforded that opportunity to a degree again next week because we have guys who are knocked about. So, as far as looking at the overall series, if you had said to me before the series that you’d be two out of three going into the Wallabies, I probably would have taken it because that means we’d have to have beaten New Zealand in one of those two games.

“Considering we hadn’t done it in 30-odd times of trying in 111 years, you’d probably put your hand up and take one of those. As it is now, we weren’t that far away and I think there’s huge merit in the effort that the players put in,” he said.

New Zealand coach Steve Hansen said Ireland had to do more if they wanted another win.

“Whilst it wasn’t always pretty, we’ve got to be pretty happy with the result. If you want to beat the All Blacks, you’ve got to score more than nine points. It was a good Test match by both sides and plenty of attitude from both teams.”

Refererring to the citings of Sam Cane and Malakai Fekitoa, Hansen conceded one of them.

“Obviously the discipline has got to improve. The Rob Henshaw tackle was a head clash [with Cane]. I just reviewed it again there this morning and they have collided heads. It wasn’t a high tackle so he was knocked out as soon as they knocked heads, but Mala’s [Fekitoa] one was high.

“He just needs to have a look at that. It’s clumsy and it’s not the way we want to play. He will be spoken to but it was a physical Test match. That’s what you expect when you get two good sides playing each other.

“There was plenty of things on both sides. There was neck rolls and all sorts of things going on that were missed and that we could sit and complain about but when you get a physical Test match you get a physical Test match and that’s what it was. No quarter asked and no quarter given.”

45 Comments

  • stroudos
    2:12 PM 24/11/2016

    Jeremy Guscott is not Eddie Jones.

    Reply
  • stroudos
    2:11 PM 24/11/2016

    Hear hear!

    Reply
  • stroudos
    2:04 PM 24/11/2016

    Majority of UK media are twats. My theory is they're people who failed at sport themselves and can't bear to see others being successful. This is of course multiplied for NZ given just how successful they are. These pathetic jealous bastards just can't bear to let other people do well. Problem in this case is people seem to be getting the impression that Ireland have been sore losers, based on things written in British newspapers.

    Reply
  • stroudos
    2:00 PM 24/11/2016

    Oldflyhalf - at 73:16, all I see is a shit kick from an Ireland player that goes out on the full and the lineout being awarded. What were we supposed to see?? Please don't conflate Eddie Jones / England team with the pathetic scum who write for the media in the UK.

    Reply
  • stroudos
    1:54 PM 24/11/2016

    Quite right Moo. Show us the incident which led to the penalty being awarded. The actual kicking of the ball is of minimal interest. Don't know why (many) highlights producers can't seem to understand this.

    Reply
  • drg
    1:51 AM 24/11/2016

    RD is in it's own right, a news outlet..... bad news, or contentious news sells... gets people talking or sharing.. Can't blame them..

    Reply
  • mise
    11:00 PM 22/11/2016

    i don't think there is any special animosity towards NZ after the match in Ireland actually - I don't think it'll sour relations in the future or whatever - genuinely - Warren Gatland's potty mouth does more to annoy people in reality. Irish folk are in general delighted to have finally beaten them and done reasonably well the second time - ie not capitulation, as many had feared. And they know the best team won. I'm suprised Rugbydump has actually started another tread on this, after I'd imagine we're more or less finished talking about it! Fundamentally, NZ play a brilliant and v high tempo brand of rugby and in many ways its good that its on the edge. The alternative? Look at the English and French championships. Boring as hell and brutal anyway.

    Reply
  • pete
    10:04 PM 22/11/2016

    Fair point, right you are!

    Reply
  • jimmy23
    9:18 PM 22/11/2016

    I agree, the media should take a lot of the blame for what I was alluding to. However, as a quick look on social media will show, a number people are buying into it. The rugby community need to rise above it, even on Facebook or Twitter.

    Reply
  • drg
    7:37 PM 22/11/2016

    I think the rug y community needs to start coming together and either ignoring tabloid bs, or reading very little into it. Let's face it, the best team in the world won the match, why are we so shocked? We have a team that played amazingly and beat the AB's in Chicago, and for whatever reasons, they did not play with the same intensity this time round. Sure they lost players to injuries, but that is the nature of the game and really you should have a sub who is 99.9% of the player he is replacing. The abs played some good play and of course some good cynical play, we all try things on the pitch, I think it should be highlighted of the AB's but the fans should not take offence, it is a skill and they used it to their advantage. Good game all round. Best of luck to all in the up and coming games.

    Reply
  • oldflyhalf
    4:29 PM 22/11/2016

    Before the end of the match, I told a friend: All Blacks has made a new friend ..."of death". In my opinion, this media war, ignited for nothing serious, will have one winner and a bunch of victims. The only ones who will benefit from this media war, I say well concocted, are the boys of Eddie Jones and implicitly England. Follow the British press and the comments made by Eddie in the months, and the years ahead. In his BBC column, J. Guscott said: "Referees need to look harder at New Zealand - their speed and intensity means the game moves so quickly, but they are canny. The All Blacks have to watch their high tackles - they have got a reputation for it and have had two players cited from Saturday - but for all that, you can't blame the players." "I'm not one who thinks their players go out there to hurt anyone illegally, they are sportsmen and do their best. There is ferocity in everything they do and they take everything to the limit, but it is up to the referee to be better at seeing and penalising them." ...not bad for starters. :)

    Reply
  • oldflyhalf
    3:21 PM 22/11/2016

    @DrG Don`t worry, Jaco entered for some time in a select entourage. The club "wayne barnes". Sorry, I know, my comment is 100% mischievous, but I could not to restrain myself. :)

    Reply
  • jeri
    12:54 PM 22/11/2016

    The media, as usual, does more sensationalism, and less illumination. It was a physical match, and both team's players came out battered and bruised, but you don't hear them whinging and raising hell about it. The loudest mouths are the retirees, the columnists and social media.

    Reply
  • moo
    9:55 AM 22/11/2016

    A good excuse to watch that back. Richie was only at the beginning of his international career and had a bit more to come though! Loved watching Will Greenwood in that match. Immense.

    Reply
  • jimmy23
    8:37 AM 22/11/2016

    The worrying thing for me is how bitter the fallout from this game has been. Yes, some of the All Black tackling was a bit dodgy, but two players got sin binned and have been subsequently cited for their actions. Also, et's not forget Sexton almost taking Barrett's head off when he was scoring his try. The ref had a iffy game and missed things on both sides. This was a particularly brutal game that had an extra spice to it due to the Chicago game and it showed. But all this talk of the All Blacks being a 'dirty' side and the Irish being 'bitter' is not good. What makes me worried is that this fallout is going to escalate from it becoming a 'fierce' rivalry into an unpleasant one and that will be bad for the game. That's treading into football territory.

    Reply
  • danknapp
    7:51 AM 22/11/2016

    Ireland is not part of the UK. It'd be like us saying that NZ is part of Australia.

    Reply
  • guy
    7:31 AM 22/11/2016

    Okay, I should read all comments first before I respond to an older comment. Excellent piece!

    Reply
  • guy
    7:29 AM 22/11/2016

    With the penalty count 3 times as high and 2 or 3 yellow cards, I would definitely not say the referee turned a blind eye. I mean...he did penalize them...3 times as much. Besides this you have to remember penalizable offences take place all over the field and only part of the penalties are for foul play. As for the Barret try: I think the Irish were a bit lucky there. If a try had not been awarded, the ref could have awarded a penalty try for a high tackle and foul play preventing a try should be accompanied with a yellow card or sending of (if I remember the laws correctly).

    Reply
  • drg
    7:03 AM 22/11/2016

    Pretty safe to say Peyper had a shocker really... Nigel Owens for all international matches?

    Reply
  • drg
    7:01 AM 22/11/2016

    However with a penalty count 3 times as high and was it 2 or 3 yellows over all? That's quite poor refereeing. But, with all respect, it's typical of NZ! They find the referees line, and tip toe along it all day long. Other teams find the line and then retreat back a safe 20 metres or so... You have to play to the very edge really.

    Reply
  • drg
    6:53 AM 22/11/2016

    Actually Rabbit most of the media I've read seem to give it a fair assessment.... Ireland could have won had they taken their chances like they did in the previous encounter.... Seems fair enough to me. As for the high tackle to save a try, I missed that myself, but as moo (these names...) mentioned, it's actually quite rare to see a penalty try and yellow these days... I wasn't suggesting that 'the AB's cheated and robbed Ireland'... I was suggesting that Jacos refereeing was a little dubious at times, and it certainly didn't help Ireland, however the reality is, was anyone expecting Ireland to really win again? NZ are certainly not unbeatable, but they're the top team for a reason and that's more to do with their management of the game outside of the 80mins game time than it is directly on the pitch!

    Reply
  • pete
    1:46 AM 22/11/2016

    Right, I'm not for a minute going to defend Fekitoa, as everyone knows that was a shocker (including him) and he was rightly binned for it! I will however say, the stiff arm given to Barrett when scoring hit him squarely on the jaw - and hardly a mention form the UK press? where as teh internet has lit up in the other direction. As for Henashaw, I thought he cut back into the defense rushing across, when you change direction your head often leads - he got clobbered and it didn't look good but I'm not sure it was by design as suggested. Everyone thinks we get away with murder but I thought we were heavily penalised and not sure why Aaron Smith got sent, from my eyes he came from behind, stepped over, didn't use his hands and kicked the ball through (a man down for 10) - what did I miss? Anyhow, I found the following article probably the most balanced I've read (and no it's not from a Kiwi). http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/international-rugby/beauden-barrett-score-should-have-been-a-penalty-try-referees-shocking-performance-in-irelandall-blacks-clash-analysed-35230394.html

    Reply
  • 1:36 AM 22/11/2016

    I just put the article to show an alternative point of view. The media mainly but also ex players and people that should know better are still going on 3 days later as if only 1 side hit hard. The ref was poor to both teams and for different reasons. Lopsided penalty count can also suggest 1 side was watched harder than the other when both teams seem to be making the same transgressions - such as coming through on the 9.

    Reply
  • mise
    1:17 AM 22/11/2016

    true, tackles can look worse slow, and i choose not to upload an even slower one for that reason .But the point of contact is the point of contact. And one player can see what's about to happen, the other can't. that's indisputable. With the new info from authorities on head tackles, for this to be called just a collision seems naive from the ref- or, he bottled it. In any case, the citing commissioner sees differently. As regards selected pictures in the irish or NZ press, they are way too decontextualised to be taken too seriously. Obviously Irish and NZ media will be selective ,backing up their own - there are loads of available vids of illegal head tackles on stander, zebo, O Brien for eg). However - inevitably, with an 8 vs 26 pen count against NZ, the cards and now the citings - its clear which side was breaking the laws of the game. Also the citing commissioner found 12 incidents of concern , 1 Irish and 11 NZ. And the Irish didn't cite NZ. None of this is to say that Ireland would have won - they probably wouldn't have! NA are very hard to beat, they had their locks back, and had won 18 of their previous 19 games! But when a game pans out the way that one did, you do have to look at the head stuff, with the problem of concussions etc. Its a broader point. (But its worth repeating, NZ probably would have won anyway)

    Reply
  • oldflyhalf
    1:13 AM 22/11/2016

    ...it's right, but on turf in practice is a little bit different. the boys who have more than 100 kg are in moving, in very fast moving. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGAd0OkyKoY&t=6254s ...an freeze at 73:16". ...what do you thing? :) too many frustrations, too many egos and too much hatred! England, Eddie Jones, will use this match that sparked some controversy on how it to defends/play/tackle/hit All Blacks to trigger in force and the long term, at least until the RWC 2019, the mass-media campains to discredit the All Blacks, to put a big pressure on them. . No wonder that England is known as "perfidious Albion." :)

    Reply
  • 12:57 AM 22/11/2016

    All tackles can look bad in slomo. At full speed the payer spins and turns into Cane who almost just runs into him without expecting it. High yes, on purpose no. As for the rest of the comment it is like the media mania being printed and without base. As an alternative http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11752065 It is a picture of what may or may not have been a bad tackle but the shoulder looks high inb a single frame

    Reply
  • mackinaw
    12:37 AM 22/11/2016

    Here's Richard Hill & Neil Back playing Richie McCaw in 2003: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYlvXHs7u0g

    Reply
  • mise
    12:24 AM 22/11/2016

    The kiwis knew what had to be done, and knew they'd get away with it. Over the two matches ,the peno could was 8 (IRL) vs 26 (NZ). With the yellows and now the citings ,its obvious the ref was too star struck to get a grip on the stuff that was over the edge. And NZ knew this ,got away with it, and won .They knew where the line was - a Nigel Owens type ref would have controlled it better. Once a kiwi was in the bin he was never going to bin another during those 10 mins, no matter what happened. Of course it was hard on both sides, plenty of this and that, but Henshaw and Stander -two of Ireland's best attacking threats - were taken out. Henshaw defo was victim of a head and shoulder charge - he was blindsided, Cane saw it all. That said, even though it looked like Sexton did actually hold up the ball excellently, prob would have been a penaulty try as his grappling on the ground for the ball meant he went high. TMO had a nightmare on that try (in many respects!), but ref seemed afraid to call what was obvious. TMO/ref Should also have checked for the forward passes in the last try too (no one got to see if they were or not) https://m0.sportsjoe.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/20100403/Henshaw-tackle-iloveimg-resized.gif

    Reply
  • jeri
    12:11 AM 22/11/2016

    The Irish played with heart, but no industry. Even with the benefit of playing against 14 men, they continued to attack using rugby league style of play. I don't know why they refused to be more ambitious in attack on their home turf, they did in Chicago and they won. They didn't in Dublin, and they lost. Which begs the question - will we see their Chicago performance again? And when? Otherwise, normal routine has resumed

    Reply
  • desertcolt07
    10:41 PM 21/11/2016

    14 penetals and 20minutes playing against 14? yes the score was flattering...for Iraland

    Reply
  • larry
    10:37 PM 21/11/2016

    Do you think head clashes are more common now than in the past? Good point you make about how the game is played, and the safety needed and laws applied to make the game safe. You mentioned not wrapping with the arms. Some of the worst I see, and not always called, is a player going full blast into a ruck situation to clear out an opposing player, just charging in, not in control and not wrapping. It's dangerous, and if the ball has already just been picked out of the ruck, or heeled back out of a ruck, it's also obstruction, as the ruck is over and no longer in process.

    Reply
  • 10:26 PM 21/11/2016

    It wasn't meant as a troll. Serious question as all the UK media has gone off at the AB's and overlooked many Irish offences (typical of any media I suppose). Some of the reporting has been incredible. High tackle (or penalty) to save a try is automatic yellow card yet is never mentioned. There are a few pics in the NZ press of Irish players making head high hits and neck rolls, depends on your starting view point I guess.

    Reply
  • larry
    10:26 PM 21/11/2016

    One last comment about the previous match: it wasn't televised live in America, but some two hours after the fact. I went on YouTube the other day and downloaded the RTE highlights vid. Trust me, most of you who live in the UK, or NZ, or anywhere else where rugby is much more popular, you'd have gotten a few chuckles out of hearing the American broadcasting crew. Of course the Dublin match wasn't on our TV here in the States, unless one has one of those special channels, if it is even on the cable network that is subscribed to, as many cable providers do not even have those sports networks available to purchase. Then one has to find a website on the Internet and pay up front money. NBC Sports Channel broadcast the Chicago match.

    Reply
  • moo
    10:22 PM 21/11/2016

    Never bought this argument. You pick who you have available. No excuses at this level.

    Reply
  • danknapp
    10:20 PM 21/11/2016

    The ABs looked pretty rattled by what happened in Chicago. They came looking for revenge, and were determined to extract it. Plenty of high shots and neck rolls, flying into the ruck without binding, all sorts of shit. Ireland really got under their skin. They really don't like the idea of being beaten, which I can utterly respect.

    Reply
  • larry
    10:17 PM 21/11/2016

    I should think 21-9 isn't exactly, with tries now worth 5 points instead of 4 or 3, a "blowout" of any sorts. Some of the commentators a few weeks back suggested that New Zealand were going to win by 50 points or so, or at least by a very large score. I never thought that would happen, but I questioned whether Ireland could pull off two straight against the All Blacks. Having said all that the score line does suggest, and I haven't seen any highlights let alone the match itself, that there weren't all that many scoring opportunities overall, or if there were, neither team capitalized to get the sort of scoring in the previous match. The comment about not being able to beat New Zealand with a mere 9 points says heaps. In modern times I don't know if anyone has beaten New Zealand, or drawn even, with less than 15. Last point: Soldier Field's rugby configuration had a pitch only some 96 meters from goal to goal (104 yards), and barely 7 meter in-goals, though the width was close to international standard, maybe three or four meters narrower. It seems to have become the place for an international rugby match in the USA. There are other stadiums in other cities in which a full-sized pitch could be used, and it isn't as though other major cities in the USA do not have large Irish-American populations. Perhaps Foxborough near Boston could be a site for a game in the future, or Levi Stadium somewhat near San Francisco.

    Reply
  • mastersa
    9:37 PM 21/11/2016

    The loss of Henshaw (shoulder to head), Stander (shoulder to head and no wrap by Dagg not spotted by anybody it seems) and hamstrung Sexton in the first half, definately weakened the Irish attacking options. Ref didn't help much either, but that said the Irish know that they left this one behind lacking the clinical and cynical edge of the champs. Hats off to Barrett, Wittlock and Rettalick for making a significant difference to Chicago.

    Reply
  • 8:54 PM 21/11/2016

    Should the player 'tackling' Barrett on his try have been carded too? Swinging arm to the head. It wasn't all one way.

    Reply
  • drg
    8:15 PM 21/11/2016

    Heard some interesting arguments, the most compelling were "should Cane have been yellow carded? Yes, would it have changed the outcome of the match? Ireland didn't take advantage of the 15-14 men advantage they had for 20 mins if the game, it's not fair to say that they would have in this instance" "Ireland beat the AB's for the first time in 111 years, it might have been a big ask for them to do it twice in a fort night" There were questions raised about jaco's refereeing... But I've yet to read into it...

    Reply
  • welshosprey
    8:13 PM 21/11/2016

    Back to reality for Ireland when NZ use their proper team.

    Reply
  • weejockmcplop
    7:41 PM 21/11/2016

    Watch the you tube video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er8u04TPRe8 ...and freeze at 0:24, Cane's head may indeed come into contact with Henshaw's head but it would be the cheek /lower jaw that strikes as Cane moves his head forward and down and certainly would not have laid Henshaw out cold. It is the action of the shoulder into Henshaw's jaw that causes the damage. Just to be absolutely clear, the law is that he tackle must be below the level of the shoulders and must not ride up, the arms must wrap in the tackle and not just be a shoulder charge. Cane may have tried to wrap, but he is too high in the tackle, and moving in and up with force, that he cannot help but come into contact with Henshaw's head. For that reason the tackle is reckless and should have seen Cane binned. Yes, Sexton's tackle on Barret was high and should have been punished, but it did not result in a serious injury. Given that we are trying to grow the game world wide and encourage children to play the game, we must do everything to make it safe. Referees have a duty of care to the players in their charge and must ensure that the games is played to the rules and not recklessly. Pictures of players being carried off on a stretcher does nothing for the reputation of the games nor the All Blacks.

    Reply
  • moo
    4:59 PM 21/11/2016

    Exactly my thoughts on the editing front. Though it could be the other way on RTE (no idea) with a super-slow-mo hi-def shot of Henshaw, Rocky-esque going down to the proverbial canvas! I do have another gripe with the producers most 'highlights' packages: yes, I want to see the scores and yes, sometimes the kicks are a big part of it... BUT please don't sacrifice significant moments / contentious issues / key bits of play for yet another shot of a fly-half (or whoever) pausing for an age and then slotting the ball through the uprights.

    Reply
  • weejockmcplop
    4:03 PM 21/11/2016

    Great editing, seems to have whitewashed all the contentious moments. Looks a bit like a Steve Hansen post match review"...what high tackles, I didn't see any high tackles, you guys from the NH just whinge when you get beaten" :D

    Reply
  • guy
    2:48 PM 21/11/2016

    I guess the AB's deserved their win but the scoreline is actually a little bit flattering. I thought the Irish were pretty much in it but NZ were just a little more clinical. Nevertheless Ireland deserve just as much praise.

    Reply
  • jimmy23
    2:34 PM 21/11/2016

    I predict a spicy comments section with this one. *gets popcorn and will wait when I'm not at work to actually contribute to the discussion*

    Reply


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