Tuesday Oct 25, 2011 Richie McCaw knee on Morgan Parra, Donald kick, Rougerie eye-gouge, and more

Richie McCaw knee on Morgan Parra, Donald kick, Rougerie eye-gouge, and more
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In the aftermath of the All Blacks victory over France in the Rugby World Cup final there have been many different theories and allegations, some within reason, others perhaps not. Today we attempt to provide more clarity on all the incidents. 

One thing that’s clear is that everyone has an opinion. If you’re French, you’re more than likely going to be quite vocal at this time, but that’s understandable – your team lost and you’re unhappy. We sympathise with you. Everyone goes through it from time to time. Just ask Wales. 

For the neutrals, some of what has gone on has left this RWC with quite a quite sour aftertaste. The tournament that has been litterered with controversy, and be handled badly at times. Here’s a look at three of the incidents from the final though, and a few thoughts on each. 

The Stephen Donald penalty kick 

There have been numerous site comments, emails, tweets, etc all saying that this penalty kick from Stephen Donald actually missed. It didn’t. 

Having studied it in good quality, slowed it down, and having used a bit of common sense, you can clearly see that the camera is moving from left to right, creating an illusion of it having slipped wide and to the right of the post.

The ball ends up on that side because he’s kicked it in the form of an in-ducker, which is basically when the ball goes from left to right from a right-footed kicker after he’s stabbed at it. It’s almost like a slice, or the same direction you’d expect a slice to go anyway.

That’s certainly not conclusive proof, but just look at the reactions of the touch judges (flags up straight away), the crowd, the French players, and Donald himself. It might have looked like it missed when watching on tv, but there’s no conspiracy here. Hopefully we can put this one to rest. 


The Richie McCaw knee on Morgan Parra

Early on in the game French number ten Parra took a bad knock to the head from All Blacks skipper Richie McCaw as he attempted to clear out Thierry Dusautoir. Parra had to leave the field. He returned but didn’t last long, and left again.

You can see in the above picture that the knock was a fairly hefty one, and the video replay showed that McCaw’s knee (and hand, depending on how you want to view it) made contact with his cheek. It’s also possible that part of the knock came from the initial burst by Ma’a Nonu. 

Was there anything intentional there from McCaw? This is another one for you to decide on, depending which side of the fence you sit. As a neutral, you would think no, it was not intentional. While the super-slowmo shows us a knee hitting a face, every other angle indicates that he was doing what every loose forward does in every game of rugby on the planet – attempting to clear out a player and compete for the ball. 

If anything it was clumsy, as his eyes were on Dusautoir the whole time, but perhaps at a stretch one could say that he could have been more aware of Parra on the floor. 


Aurelien Rougerie eye-gouge on Richie McCaw

During the game it was clear to see that something had happened to McCaw on the floor. His reaction to the ref, and the redness in the eye, and eye area, showed that something must have taken place. TV show Reunion in New Zealand have now released a video of it, following strong allegations by commentator Keith Quinn.

“It was clearly seen on TV,” said Quinn. “McCaw needed attention from medical staff.”

A source within the New Zealand camp confirmed it, but the video wasn’t clear, which is why Reunion have released the below footage. You can decide for yourself what takes place. 

The citing period for the match has passed, so it’s possible that Rougerie may not face any punishment. The IRB usually take quite a strong standpoint on such offences though, so we’ll need to wait and see what happens. McCaw himself hasn’t complained formerly, but did say that he felt something around his eye but didn’t know what it was. He also said he wasn’t sure if it was intentional or not. 


Other controversies

The refereeing of Craig Joubert had been praised for most of the tournament, but in the final game the 50/50 calls seemed to go New Zealand’s way, particularly in the first half. Was there an agenda? One would like to think not, but stranger things have happened at this tournament. There is a video doing the rounds that includes two pundits from an Ireland television station analysing the breakdown. You can view that here and make your own mind up.

One thing is certain, Joubert is not a popular man in France right now. 

Haka fine for France
As you will have heard by now, France have reportedly been fined for part of their response to the Haka just before kick off. The fine, reportedly amounting to £2500, is not actually for responding, but is specifically because they crossed the halfway line, which is against the regulations and agreements in place for ‘cultural challenges.’

This crazy thing is that technically some of the New Zealand players also crossed their ‘border’, as you can see at the end of the France challenge the Haka video that was posted here earlier in the week. We are however yet to see official written confirmation of the fine. 

Impartiality
Lastly, accusations of bias and a lack of impartiality on Rugbydump are completely unfounded, and to be totally honest, fairly narrow minded and insulting. If you’ve visited the site for the past five years you will know the site’s intentions.

Nothing has suddenly changed, and why would it? Please take a moment to think things through before posting unwarranted abuse. Here’s looking forward to the rest of the season. Cheers. 

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142 Comments

  •  browner
    browner

    Anyone who has played Flanker/Back row knows exactly what McCaw was doing - as did he ....... He took the 'opportunity' to punch Parra in ther face 'on the way into the contest with Dusautoir ... i'm 100% that any knee contact was accidental , but i'm 100% that the clenched fist that was heading downwards towards Parra's face was deliberate [it's contrary to all the laws of motion/physics for someone intending to engage with dusautoir] that fact is that it all happens so quickly is the pure brilliance of McCaw - he knows, and if he ever reads this then he will chuckle and smile, but likely never admit it. It's part of what made him great. The Eye gouge is despicable, and McCaws response adds weight to his greatness . rougerie should be banned, NZ were right not to raise it, but if the IRB are serious at cleaning up such thuggery then they should not need NZ to raise the subject they should just act anyway ! LISTEN and ACT IRB your credibility demands it!!!

    Reply
  •  pretzel
    pretzel

    McCaw is no saint, but I honestly, truly cannot believe that people are going on about the McCaw Parra incident.... especially seeing as when Trin Duhc came on he played immensely... nothing like taking a 9 wearing a 10 shirt off and subbing him with a REAL 10.... I though Parra played really well and all credit to him, but this incident looked nothing more than an accident... really given what McCaw was up to all game I'm pretty sure you'd have other things to moan about rather than Parra... As for RD showing an apparent lack of impartiality....!??!?!?! what??!?! I haven't been as frequent on the comment section as I used to be when it was a bit more free-for-all like... so maybe its in the commenting, but who exactly is RD supposed to be more bias towards?!?! I can't say I ever noticed it....

    Reply
  •  pretzel
    pretzel

    hmmm, the problem is the RWC is the worst competition to see flair and inspiration.... I mean look at the final, I'm sure everyone can say that NZ are probably the best (or at least one of the best) in the world, but did they look like that in the final? I mean their backline are supposed to be one of the most deadliest in the game, quick, fast, strong etc etc... all I saw them do was tackle (which to their credit they did immensely)... they looked lost really. The french on the other hand showed great flair which is pretty unusual in a world cup because lets face it, flair can be risky, and the last thing you want to do is lose a world cup because you did something slightly risky and it lead to points to the other team... you just need to listen to attitudes of the players, I think Quade cooper summed it up pretty well, when he said something along the lines of "i'd rather play badly and win than play well and lose" because lets face it, they are not comedians or actors, they are not there to entertain us...

    Reply
  •  gaetan
    gaetan

    French media could say the same for the kiwis: http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/breves2011/20111009_062325_jane-fait-polemique.html

    Reply
  •  gaetan
    gaetan

    You should learn french buddy. French media didn't give the same story... lost in translation

    Reply
  •  jury
    jury

    Matt Williams has one of the worst coaching records of all time. I think we know why now. He doesn't know the rules of the game. The clips he's posting are incredibly selective.

    Reply
  •  jury
    jury

    It's mainly the Granny (NZ) Herald and they are atrocious. I was embarrassed for the inflammatory rubbish they were writing about the French team. It's not reporting the news. They just made stuff up and kept antagonising the French. When they were called on it, they acted like "who me"?

    Reply
  •  kevtoulousaing
    kevtoulousaing

    hahahaha deadly! yep, i think "throat slitting" means " let's go home and have a cup of tea, then I might give you a massage with jasmin oil" in maori.

    Reply
  •  kevtoulousaing
    kevtoulousaing

    Totally agree. Only difference is that in most games you're talking about, refereeing wasn't that much on a one-way track. The final was. Seems you didn't see my post. I'm not talking about conspiracy theories, only of one man overwhelmed by pressure. Anyway, well done NZ! Well done France for a great final! We are proud anyway

    Reply
  •  jeroz
    jeroz

    I believe he had a few times. I remember one of them being against the English team in one of the End of Year tours.

    Reply
  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    yes 2 from new zealand (both are regarded as dirty players in nz) and counting rougerie there is 6 from france.

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  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    They are ready for it because it already happens evey time they tour. Calls to ban the haka, richies a cheat, they get favourable treatment from refs, the IRB favours them. This is all common place from media people in their main rivals countries.

    Reply
  •  pretzel
    pretzel

    incorrect, mccaw gets singled out because whilst every other 7 is given 10 minutes to think about how naughty they were at the breakdown, he gets jolly reach around from every ref under the sun... infact has he ever had a card?

    Reply
  •  bib160
    bib160

    You are right, The only problem is that against NZ there is only to ways to score point: 1) Scoring penalty from a very hard pressure by the forwards in the rucks 2) Scoring tries after multiple phases (+15) without making mistakes (knock on or penalties) The bad refereeing in the ruck area resulted in the impossibility to play multiple phases (hence, no tries) and the pressure put by the forward should have resulted in kickable penalties but Joubert forgot to take his responsability. An other concern of the french fans is also that the 3 kickable penalties given to the AB should not have been given.

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  •  kevtoulousaing
    kevtoulousaing

    (french fan by the way) knee and kick not even worth talking about. A bit sad for Parra who was playing the game of his life. Gouging is a shame. Rougerie should've been cited and banned for a few months My real concern is about Joubert. I think he was under terrible pressure and lost his impartiality. Since they weren't being penalized, the ABs (especially McCaw) noticed it and made the most of it (Kaino incident). Yes I'd call them cheats. But I'd do the same thing to win a RWC! Problem is JOUBERT SEES ALL THAT AND DOESN'T CARE. Where did he loose it? Other problem is: The game lost a lot of credibility Last problem is: We'll have to declare war to NZ if f**** journalists keep on treating our boys like shit ;)

    Reply
  •  rugbyplayedbymen
    rugbyplayedbymen

    I watched it and all it did was point out AB infringements and a half hearted French on. I have re-watch the game and in the first 40 minutes if the ref was to be totally to the letter of the law and based on other decisions in previous WC games the feanch should have been penalised a futher 10 times and the AB's 4. Now what Samoa were red carded for against SA, the French #4 did to Thorn and Richie was told to speak to Thorn when he stood up for himself (Thorn should have dived on the ground like the SA did in the Samoa game) also French # 8 attacked the face of Woodcock in a rolling maul, and a French tackler lead with a forearm to Kaino's head so I too if I was a TV commentator could do something similar. But why, all games can be dissected to show what ever you want, its not the players or the ref that needs to change, its the stupid laws that allow for 10 people to see the same play but yet view 10 different rulings that could be taken depending on view point, and yet be justified for their decision. Players and Ref's do what they think is right at the time and I for one can't wait till the player can sort it out themselves with in reason.

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  • The NZ Media were a bunch of immature tossers and some of the stories that ran leading upto the final pointing out French past wrong doings was totally inappropriate. I hope they are ready to have the NH media doo exactly the same to the AB's in 4 years time and they have only themselves to blame. If I was AB's media manager I would not give that publication any access to the team during any WC in the future.

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  • You make a comment about a fist from McCaw, if a boxer made a fist like that the opponent would laugh in his face. A fist is when the hand is closed not open. Then you dismiss the claim of the head butt, you show that you are against the AB's and look only at their wrong doings. Get impartial and be someone worth listening to. If McCaw hit Parra with a fist then McCaw was definately head butted, have to be fair both ways.

    Reply
  •  murph
    murph

    If NZ deserved to win the cup because of form then why bother having the final at all? We in Europe could have stayed in bed. Aaron Cruden's knee would still be intact and the Kiwis could have engaged in their onanistic orgy a week early.

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  •  murph
    murph

    Rooking=cheating=McCawing

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  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    And that has waht to do with anything?

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  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    then by your reckoning of the 1 in 10 are caught, counting rougerie that means there are 60 french cases.

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  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    Kaino did NOT have his hands on the ball to start with, when he does he go for it he is on his feet. And yes he does knock it on which Joubert does give the French the scrum feed for. Read did not effect play in anyway. Parra was directly involved in the play.

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  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    Nope, that vid is strictly from a french sympathetic point of view.

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  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    Firstly, Rooking? what the hell is that. Secondly, Macaw did nothing wrong in regards to Parra. It was Parra who lifted his head into the line of fire. Maccaw by that point only had eyes for clearing Dusutoir. Secondly, every single 7 in international rugby does exactly the same as Maccaw, Maccaw just gets singled out due to playing in the most succesful team in the world.

    Reply
  •  cooperkid
    cooperkid

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5848969/French-players-in-confrontation-with-press

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  •  cooperkid
    cooperkid

    or someone who risked your mental health by rooking like a schoolboy?McCaw is either a dirty player and hit parra intentionally or he is crap at rooking and gets wrong often.coming in from the side,killing the ball,playing while off his feet - the list goes on you decide. By the way im Irish and totally unbiased here, i love to watch the all blacks but for me piri weepu's ankle tap won them that game!

    Reply
  •  moddeur
    moddeur

    Colombes, as far as I recall, UHTiger is also the guy who said that Cory Jane actually did Traille a major favour by tackling him in the air during the France-AB pool match (to prevent Traille from tipping over and hurting himself - Jane is such a great guy when you think about it). Basically, UHTiger is biased, you're biased, and I'm biased. Conversation seems a bit futile so I'm moving on now.

    Reply
  •  moddeur
    moddeur

    Well as I pointed below, I see 2 All-Blacks in the following list, with corresponding events in NZ domestic games: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye-gouging_%28rugby_union%29 There are 5 French players in that same list. How many players have gone unpunished? If the IRB only catches 1 criminal in 10, then there are still 20 cases of unpunished eye-gouging ABs out there ... What I'm trying to say is that eye-gouging is nasty and unforgivable but it's not typically French or typically non-NZ. You can therefore let it go, France is no worse than any other nation of rugby. Rougerie is a major asshole if he's eye-gouged McCaw. Rougerie. Not "The French". Rougerie on his own. Get it?

    Reply
  •  simmer
    simmer

    Wow, their video is pretty subtle for sure, if I wanted to see it miss then I would probably believe it too. I figure, if we cant be certain which video is doctored, then logic tells me the French team (standing under and very close to the posts) would never have let that penalty go un-protested if they thought it had missed.

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  •  simmer
    simmer

    This is a very poor attempt at impersonating an (ex) All Blacks supporter. Real All blacks supporters are either: - clueless and arrogant, unlikely to ever change their opinion - or well aware of the claims of favoritism that (mostly NH) media and fans make, and can see why those claims exist and tend to wish it wasn't such a big distraction. But still recognize some really awesome players in the nz side, who were lucky or skilled enough to play right up to the referee's limit. The only embarrassing transgressions in the final were french, and perhaps Craig Joubert's.

    Reply
  •  colombes
    colombes

    UH Tiger, after your 50 or 60 comments where u insult frenchs, try to glorify all blacks victory, mc caw is god, all blacks fans never complain, all blacks are "fair play", etc... everybody know that french are filth, coward, whiners, etc... i think people have quite understand what you are about. it's maybe maybe time to rest for you, time is precious again, congrats to all blacks, all credits for their most complete world cup (and when i say all blacks, i think the players and staff, not their fans and newspapers) and congrats to you: you would do a formidable press officer. ps: send your candidature to NZ Herald ps2: o-b-j-e-c-t-i-v-i-t-y (very important)

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  •  breakaway
    breakaway

    @nemo34: I appreciate you pointing out that you're French at the start.. I would never have guessed. Comparing your silly over-the-top rants against NZ and the RWC, with your assessment of Rougerie's eye-gouging as "there seems to be something", is amusing.

    Reply
  •  nemo34
    nemo34

    Ok, thank you Rugbydump for your impartiality. I'm french. Yes, I think there are legitimate questions to be asked to Rougerie. It is not a proper "fork" but there seems to be something; Yes, I think referring in the famoue 2007 quarter-final was unfair; No, I don't think Duck'penalty missed ann I don't think Yachvili's one was in but 1 - The referring of the final is outrageous. And this outrage was done in front of the whole f...g rugby planet. What a marvelous example to be shown to kids: You wanna be champions? Play it like Kaino! The number 10 bothers you? Ram-it like McCaw! 2 - During the whole World Cup, the kiwi press has been outrageous with the french team. Remember the "Final Insult" headline of the Herald. I always pretended Rugby is a gentlemen's sport and kiwis are rugby gods. Now I know it was all bullshit. 3 - The gouging case seems like a very pale smoke screen thrown by kiwi press to try to cover with numerous insults. It legitimate their villaining campaign (we told you they were bad boys), it makes us forget the poor game played by ABs during the final, it changes the refering evaluation from "partial" to "poor", it balances McCaw agression on Parra (McCaw is no beginner. 3 times best player on the planet, 1.5 millions rucks a year and it didn't see Parra's head?) 4 - This Cup is tainted with shame and dishonor. Bash-washing will not help make it shine

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  •  breakaway
    breakaway

    Thanks for the link oslo, I hadn't even read that article, and so regarding the overall quality of the tournament in the eyes of people who experienced it first-hand, I rest my case. Just for the record, at the time I was hoping Japan would get the tournament too .. and I think 2019 in that country will be superb. As far as the other points he makes I think the most crucial one is, to use the writer's own words: "but then again perhaps all this depends on your nationality. Referees are easy to blame." His take on most of the incidents in the final that he mentions (like the video that's going round) could be contested point for point and a different selection of moments could prove exactly the opposite.

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  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    I agree, the fine is stupid but then again the rule is their for a reason and the french broke it. The same rule applies for the smaller nations that do their own haka. The haka that the all blacks do is not one of war. The throat slitting gesture means something different in maori culture however after initial complaints they did change the action. It is only a couple of the over zealous players who do it. The NZ press are the same as anywhere in the world, the All Blacks get the same whenever they visit their main rivals. "I have no respect for the AB anymore". No-one cares about a sour frenchman who's throwing his toys out the cot because his team lost. Joubert reffed the same way he's always reffed. He rewards teams for having a good counter ruck and realises that players can and will lose their footing whilst doing so.

    Reply
  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    You say "lets move on" yet you put up a link to an incident which happened 7 years ago.

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  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    "Maybe i'm biased". Yes, yes you are. Trying to say the gouge was anything but confirms this. 80's or 1800's, he still has an opinion aswell as first hand experience so therefore can state it. The fact that so many french made comments on this and other sites condole Maccaw getting eye gouged because they think he cheats is testament to an underlying attitude which Buck was commenting on. After the 99 world cup game more than a few all blacks complained (behind closed doors) about having had similar treatment at the hands of the french. No-one said anything at the time as they did'nt want to make excuses about the loss.

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  •  moddeur
    moddeur

    Your tone is a bit pedantic. Is French rugby a paradise for filthy eye-gougers? I see 2 All-Blacks in the following list, with corresponding events in NZ domestic games: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye-gouging_%28rugby_union%29 Of course this list is only about convicted felons, there may be a lot of free-roaming gougers still out there (and Rougerie may yet be one of them).

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  •  moddeur
    moddeur

    If you are referring to Morgan Parra's nasal fracture (read the news) in the final, then I suppose you are right and the boy was clearly simulating. If you think that spitting at a papparrazzi annoying you when you're a "celebrity" is a scandal, then you should read the gossip section more often. Other than that I have no complaints, apart from my take on McCaw, who in my eyes is nothing more than a modern-day Dallaglio on the field (and a good guy off it). Aren't we all entitled to our opinion?

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  •  moddeur
    moddeur

    Shelford has experience with what some French players did in amateur rugby of the 1980s. How does that amount to "what the French will do to win?". In the 1980s Argentina and England were fighting over a rock and a Hollywood actor was president of the USA. My take on things: Rougerie is a very nice lad, but he is filmed trying to rip McCaw's head off at the 76th minute of a rugby world cup final. Perhaps it was eye-raking, perhaps it wasn't, I can't tell, even objectively, although I don't think it looks good for Rougerie. I honestly don't know the speed of the slow-motion, did the whole action last 1/10th of a second or 2 seconds?. Now in my mind, be it French or not, since Rougerie is such a nice guy, I'll believe he was pissed off and didn't try to make McCaw lose an eye. Maybe I'm biased. But maybe I'm wrong, and if I am I'll be the first guy to ask that Rougerie be banned for ages.

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  •  moddeur
    moddeur

    Well I do say something stupid here and there, I'm not perfect :) Regarding Rougerie, it's just that he's such a nice lad ... makes it difficult to imagine he could do such a thing. There is no excuse for this type of behaviour, even if we all know why he lost it for a brief spell. Regarding the comment about "the French", it's not so untrue. It is in fact true that in French rugby it is considered sort of normal to do justice yourself, kneeing, punching, ??gouging?? (never seen a case at my amateur level) players who cheat or do dirty tricks that the referee doesn't notice. I personally don't do it. In fact I remember getting more or less grabbed by the balls during my last game on Friday, and not doing anything in retaliation. I just keep focused on the game. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind ...

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  •  frenchie
    frenchie

    The fine is just ridiculous! You know what i'd say? Lets cross the freaking line everytime we play against the AB! Lets pay the fine everytime, as a French fan i'll be more than happy to send some cash to the French Federation and tell the AB to fuck off! The Haka becomes even a farce itself with such fine: the AB can do their stuff, intimidate you with a throat cutting gesture and you're supposed to stand there and do shit?? Soon the opponent with have to clap and say thank you...After all it's a war dance so you'd expect a reaction from the opponent, right. The IRB has been way too far protecting the AB, big shame! As for the NZ press it has hit bottom low with all the crap they've been writting, similar to a trash talk tv show. In short the French are the bad guys, the Kiwis are angels (especially the Captain). Great stuff guys. I have no respect for the AB anymore. Joubert clearly had a shocker on the day and didn't ref the ruck area for 40 min. Full stop!

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  •  oslosinclair
    oslosinclair

    Andrew....the spear should be condemned you're right. So can you condemn the two players who speared Bod?

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  •  oslosinclair
    oslosinclair

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/1025/1224306445492.html

    Reply
  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    Did you even watch the vids theyve got linked with these comments. Much better video quality and clearly shows it going over.

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  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    What a joke, like i said, Shelford had first hand experience with just what the french will do to win and as i also said it was completely founded in Rougeries actions. Trying to say the Parra injury is anything more than an accident is just clutching at straws, Maccaw didnt once look at Parra and it was Parra who lifted his head up into the line of fire. It was actually Keith Quin who first brought up the eye gouge (one of the most respected commentators in rugby, he's never been bias towards the all blacks so if he brings something up its for a reason. If the stuff you've written is your idea of objective then you clearly dont understand what the word means.

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  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    Just saw on an australian website that Rougerie has actually sued another rugby player after he was fended off and hurt his throat. What a bloody hypocrite.

    Reply
  •  lnd
    lnd

    aaron did you get gouged also? it's just you're so one eyed! :D If you have ever been to this site before you might recognise moddeur as a frequent poster who does not make nonsense proclamations. By the way, it would do you no harm to be graceful in victory as you will not be world champs forever (they can't stage the tournament in NZ every 4 years)

    Reply
  •  rugbydump
    rugbydump

    Thanks for the support of those who have left positive comments. They've all been read and are appreciated. Great to see some good discussions taking place too. Cheers

    Reply
  •  rugbydump
    rugbydump

    Spot on, thanks. And you're welcome.

    Reply
  •  jeri
    jeri

    Bastareaud tried to kill himself later on - which is sad and nobody's happy about it. However I'd like you to keep in mind, the next time you insult another team's honor, that France is the only rugby team to have produced a player that lied about being racially assaulted on tour. Let's move on. Good luck with your team next RWC

    Reply
  •  mendorugger
    mendorugger

    In regards to RD showing favoritism, which I have read nothing about but im sure it has something to do with to much All Black footage, I would say I disagree. RD has always shown themselves to be a high caliber site who shows "whats going on" in rugby in the moment. There has been alot of NZ footage lately, but let me remind you all that they were hosting the cup, therefore if you want to show footage from the RWC11, its gonna be in NZ. Some people just dont know how to say thank you. Thank you RD for all that you give us and for remaining balanced in this fellas eyes. keep on doing what yall do

    Reply
  •  breakaway
    breakaway

    .. glitch .. my post above is in reply to Buzz at 8:18 am.

    Reply
  •  breakaway
    breakaway

    "It was obvious before and is more obvious now that they didn't merit hosting a World Cup." Rubbish .. this is exactly the opposite of what I have heard and read from people who actually went there, including members of the UK press who have praised the organisation, the game atmosphere, the hospitality and the fans. The rugby was also generally better than the endless punt-and-chase of 2007 and the refereeing was no better and no worse. There will always be arguments and controversy wherever a tournament like this is played but the consensus among those who actually went to NZ disagrees with you. One of the most ridiculous ideas that keeps popping up and is never actually explained, is that the IRB are constantly trying to favour NZ. Why they would taint their whole process to help NZ win is a complete mystery. The All Blacks were a dominant team for decades before the modern IRB existed and when rugby admin was dominated by the "Home" Unions who had double the voting power of SH unions until the late-50s. Currently, of the 20 representatives on the IRB executive from the major unions, NZ have two (as do Eng, Ire, Scot, Wales, Fran, Oz, SA) and Arg, Jap, Can, Italy have one each. That's 13 NH reps and 7 SH reps. The Chairman of the IRB is French! Why the hell would the IRB corrupt and jeopardize a multimillion dollar organisation built up over decades to help yet another SH team win the RWC? Apart from 03 the SH has been handing the cup around amongst themselves and I have no doubt that the IRB would absolutely love to have another NH winner. If they are so good at manipulating a win for any team they want (which is what some geniuses are suggesting) I am sure there would be at least two or three more NH champs in the books. And anyone who thinks the unions and IRB reps from SA and Aus (let alone the NH) are keen for NZ to win World Cups are seriously deluded.. seriously.

    Reply
  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    Your an idiot.

    Reply
  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    And just what did they do that was provoking?

    Reply
  •  anarchangel
    anarchangel

    I'm very surprised at the speed at which the Aussie pundit goes through that list. You can't see any of the penalties at first watch, most of the his criticisms are extremely subtle and require a second or third watch, and would ideally have a slow motion replay. Viewers basically have to take his comments on faith. That's terrible reporting. When you do their work for yourself and rewatch the alleged incidents yourself, it's pretty clear that half of the things the Aussie guy points out are not penalties at all. Moreover, the inconsistencies were explained very poorly, half of them weren't inconsistent at all, and Joubert was pretty much unsighted for the two legitimate penalties in there. I think they were smoking whatever Laurence Dellaglio was smoking when he "commentated" the game on ITV. That commentary team was right up there with the worst I've heard and these two pundits aren't much better. This just looks like the typical NH assumption of guilt as usual.

    Reply
  •  tanora
    tanora

    I agree with most of this but point 5 goes astray. Kaino pulled at the ball while off his feet and after being warned, that's a penalty. Also, was it not a knock on when he spilled the ball forward? As for the Parra-Read comparison, Parra gets his feet back to the line of the other Frenchmen on that side, so he does get back onside (that, or the penalty was given against all the French on that side but that wasn't my understanding). I can see how the Parra offside was a tougher call for Joubert from where he was, but the Kaino call was inexcusable, there was no mitigation for his failure to penalise Kaino.

    Reply
  •  tanora
    tanora

    Mark, did you watch the clip linked to above? It literally looks at both sides. Here it is in case you missed it: http://youtu.be/1XBqetaCfgo

    Reply
  •  kiwibornfrenchsupporter
    kiwibornfrenchsupporter

    I used to support the All Blacks but now post the final, I do not. I have seen the reality of the AB game and I am ashamed. Joubert (giving him the benefit of the doubt) was a complete coward. There were one set of rules for NZ and a different set for the french. He made a mockery of the refereeing profession. The AB's were a better team over the course of the tournament but France won the final. For me this ruined the spectacle as it was not a fair match. I am embarrassed how cringe worthy and obvious the AB transgressions were. I would like to propose in future the ref is not SH or NH top drawer but a true neutral. Also, the NZ press were embarrassing, Crass comment and what sort of rude idiot disturbs people when they are eating in a restaurant. This is harassment and is against the law in France. So to cut a long story short I have a new user name.

    Reply
  •  joeythelemur
    joeythelemur

    Yeah, one or two drunken idiots booing doesn't mean people were happy to see Cooper hurt. The Kiwis probably took Cooper's abuse a bit too far, but he was plenty willing to accept the role of Public Enemy. Kiwis know he's a hell of a player and gave him a respectful applause when he was taken off.

    Reply
  •  joeythelemur
    joeythelemur

    "Kiwis are just dicks and New Zealand as a country and people suck...New Zealanders are just halfwits." Sounds like someone got turned away from the Hobbit tour.

    Reply
  •  joeythelemur
    joeythelemur

    Exactly right on the eye gouge/rake. Seems like people are letting the intensity of the match get to them. There can be NO justification for hands across the eyes, not on Saturday morning, not in Top 14, not in 6 nations/tri nations, not in a world cup. And yes, not even in the last few minutes of a tense final.

    Reply
  •  joeythelemur
    joeythelemur

    Wow, maybe the best example of sour grapes yet.

    Reply
  • Sorry to hear you've had some abuse. I've been following for a few years and still haven't noticed which nationality you are, so don't let it bother you.

    Reply
  •  ystuk85
    ystuk85

    i think the major drawback this tournament has been the standard of refereeing. there has been so much controversy surrounding referees that simply should not be there. the aim of the referee should be to remain anonymous. you should not remember the referee in the game. craig joubert in wales v ireland was like this and i think this is why he got the final. unfortunately he reffed france out of it. i can understand the french's frustration but just remember you were on the good side of the ref in the semi. and as for richie mccaw not acknowledging the french, yachvilli did exactly the same after the welsh game. so try not to forget your own history. the mccaw knee wasn't deliberate in my opinion, the rougerie gouging is disgusting and he should be banned. as for rugbydump, i don't know what nationality the site is which surely shows how impartial they are!

    Reply
  •  chairmanrice
    chairmanrice

    mccaw's knee/punch looked unintentional, but he should still have been cited for it. that eye gouging was just filthy and uncalled for. not to mention it was done purposely. but headbutting? no way

    Reply
  •  simmer
    simmer

    NZ had a big advantage having just come from another game refereed by Craig Joubert, so Richie Mccaw had a big head start already. But any complaints against Richie Mccaw need to really be balanced against comparisons with other Number 7's - If a #7 isn't involved in every second ruck then they are not doing very well. They should be pushing as far as the referee allows them - or do northern hemisphere #7's really not do that? It certainly means #7 is a key recipient of 'payback' from the opposition in rucks and mauls. To get caught going for the face of the opposition #7 is not a good look. Meanwhile Media on all 3 sides (NZ, FRA, Neutral) are full of exaggerated views, so i am delighted to see clear facts here on rugbydump.com, and see heaps of constructive non-NZ views on the game. My votes on some of the remaining issues are: Some NZ media may be idiots, but others certainly thanked france for showing what its like to want the world cup so bad, and many agree that Dusatoir played amazingly. Quade cooper earlier showed himself to be a bit of a dick, but I'm well bored of the issue now and would prefer to see him become a star, if he can. Stink if he got booed after his injury. I hope that the general world opinion of the all blacks and NZ fans hasn't sunk further following the world cup - it was a great RWC with so many teams making a strong showing. Real NZ fans are now just relieved to be back to a level footing without media (both sides) continually claiming the world cup is all that matters to NZ. I guess France is next to feel hard done by in the world cup? We just wanna see good rugby from good teams. And after, good fan response, harmony etc (no soccer riots here please).

    Reply
  •  giorgi
    giorgi

    someone member Russia vs Ireland ??? For what have fined Cnobiladze? After this Cnobiladze is angel in comparison Mccaw

    Reply
  •  simmer
    simmer

    I too think your comments were well put. Referees just sometimes aren't looking for the things you as a spectator are looking for I believe. They probably shut their eyes, like Wayne Barnes not awarding NZ a penalty after huge pressure in the French 22 four years ago, even though I was willing and searching for it. The same happened in the final I guess.

    Reply
  •  bib160
    bib160

    Because when the kiwi press insults a french player it also insults me.

    Reply
  •  murph
    murph

    What part did didn't you like about Bryce's reffing? The bit where JP Pieterson puts JOC off his kick by charging early and Lawrence ignoring it? The bit where Bismark charges down QC's drop out, crosses the 22 as part of the charge down and Lawrence fails to ping him for being offside? The part where Burger repeatedly rakes Pococks face and nothing is done? The bit where South African players repeatedly went off their feet and nothing was done? Lawrence was poor but he missed crucial calls for both sides. SA have lost to Australia 6 of the last 7 times mate. If you can't win with 70% possession then that isn't the ref's fault.

    Reply
  •  colombes
    colombes

    as said before, rugbydump is a place where people try to be objective and not agressive. 1- the goal of shelford tribune was not to be objective but to give his feelings on french players doing cheaps shots in order to change the outcome of the match. do a 78th minute cheap shot changed the outcome of the match? nop, but you prefer to forget mc caw "unintentional" fist on parra, weepu punch on mermoz, woodcock trying to decapitate trinh-duc... :) 2- Wellington incident, completly off-subject, but ok, lets'answer: following bastareaud lies because he had hurt himself because of alcohol, FFR and the french prime minister presented their excuses to nz, bastareaud tried to suicide as he was on depression at the moment, he has been suspended for 6 months and never really came back at his real level and missed this world cup. is it enough for you? 2- concerning the eye-gouge, wasn't it nz newspapers who accused dusautoir of eye-gouge in order to discredit his IRB best-player title..? i personnaly hate eye-gouge and would have prefered to see rougerie sanctionned if judged deliberate. but again, i invite you to read mc caw reaction "I got a poke in the eye. I don't know if it was intentional, it was pretty quick" mc caw is maybe a breakdown cheater but he had the minimum of class for not complaining about somethin he wasn't sure. this forum is not a battle for who is wrong, who is right, as it's quite impossible to do :) but trying to bring quite fair analysis so again, read, inform yourself, try to be objective, or u will have others "coward", "eye-gouger" french fans like me to recall you the... truth ;)

    Reply
  •  yorffeo
    yorffeo

    Congrats Colombes I was gutted for the french because of most of the ref calls in the last 20 minutes...but let's get over it. You have to win it in 2015 :-) A lot of people were disapointed by NZ media but also NZ public booing Cooper even when he went out of the field injured (really really shamefull) I hope one day my country team will be able to compete in the final :-)

    Reply
  •  gaetan
    gaetan

    Provocation is not reporting the news, it's creating the news

    Reply
  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    Its not about harassing, its about reporting the news. The media were doing nothing more than doing their jobs. Its no different than any other media group around the world.

    Reply
  •  irishbob
    irishbob

    Rugby must be in a pretty bad shape when everyone ends up talking about the referee after games. The breakdown needs to be sorted out and refereed fairly or this will continue to blight the game. If you were to use this game to explain the breakdown to a novice you'd give up after 5 minutes. I enjoyed the final immensly but i was shouting at the ref for the whole bloody thing.

    Reply
  •  colombes
    colombes

    firstly, congrats to rugbydump for its objectivity. as french, i think the last days chats have been very lively between 2 passionate rugby sides who lacked, them, of objectivity ;) there has never been tension between french and nz fans, so it's unnecessary to create some. back to the controversies: 1- the s.donald kick have always been "in". i don't know how this rumour grew up. the camera angle was tricky, as it was on a yachvili penalty 2- concerning the richie mc caw knee on parra, it's not a knee but a fist. i don't think it was really intentional. At full speed, it's difficult to aim a precise part of the face, but u can maybe question the "fist" position of mc caw hand. only him has the answer. ps: parra has a broken nose and suspected orbital fracture... 3- rougerie reaction is idiot, coward and maybe sneaky. whatever it was the 54th time that mc caw was offside, off his feet or playing the ball in the ground, don't put your fingers on the face, nose, eye of your opponent!!! for me, it appears like a rake. so stupid and unnecessary from him, as frenchs have already a reputation of filthy players and it will give reason to some stupid tabloids. i think the nz staff didn't claim it because of incidents concerning nz players (woodcock high tackle, weepu suspected punch on mermoz) 4- Joubert biased? he was just under high pressure and gave all the 50/50 decisions to all blacks. i wish that nz fans will now stop to cry about wayne barnes ;) 5- the haka fine? i think everyone is ok. ridicule! A last word on french fans. most of them aren't bitter because of the defeat, they are rather proud of les bleus redemption, but have been clearly hurt by nz newspapers comments on french players and France in general. i understand the chauvinism (as frenchies are champions of it ;)) but it doesn't mean disrespect or insult a country and professional players... so again, congrats to all blacks can't wait for the next france-nz chapter in the 2015 rwc;)

    Reply
  •  tccalvin
    tccalvin

    How is rugby ever going to grow when the refs, players and most of the fans don't even know what the rules are? Newbies wont have a fucking clue. All this RWC has shown is what a mess Union is in.

    Reply
  •  jeri
    jeri

    I get irritated by the NZ press as much as the next bloke, but the NZ press just love to hate you because last time you guys were here, one of your players LIED to us. A nice young man by the name of Mathieu Bastareaud got injured one night and said he got racially assaulted on the streets. When I heard the news I was truly horribly ashamed, the entire nation was appalled, it was on the headlines everywhere. The prime minister made a public apology. And then Bastareaud said "sorry I made that up, I got injured because I was drunk". If there's one thing blokes can NOT get over, is to have our goodwill and sympathey betrayed. Sorry about bringing up ancient history we'd both like to forget, I just had to get it off my chest. Love you too RD.

    Reply
  •  buzzkillington
    buzzkillington

    It's nothing to do with post-colonial anything. The NZRU have a ridiculous sway on the IRB. How do you think NZ got to host the World Cup in the first place? It was obvious before and is more obvious now that they didn't merit hosting a World Cup. New Zealand are bribery merchants and buy whatever decision they like through bribery. I sometimes wonder if the IRB are trying to destroy Rugby. As with big hits, fights and running rugby, if you now want to see a decent haka you'll have to watch Rugby League. Everything that's good about Rugby the IRB seem to want to do away with. I agree too with your assessment of Kiwis. I think everyone who starts watching Rugby turns to the All Blacks for good rugby, unfortunately with time the reverse happens, people realise that Kiwis are just dicks and New Zealand as a country and people suck, and slowly withdraw their support from one of the greatest sporting teams in the world. The NZRU, the IRB and most New Zealanders are just halfwits.

    Reply
  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    Oh and the reason Rougerie wasnt cited was because neither Richie or the all blacks management laid a complaint. The fact that he did it was only brought to light because of someone outside the the group bringing it up. The review date has now passed so it's too late.

    Reply
  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    The aricle was written by an ex all black who in one game against the french, was rucked in the head needing stitches, eye gouged and had his scrotum ripped open from someone stamping on his balls, he was just making a comment saying that the french arnt adverse to using certain tactics and seeing the vision of Rougerie trying to remove Maccaws eyes it seems his point was a valid one. And the press have every right to publish the spitting/slapping article as the french players were stupid enough to commit the offences. I remember a couple years ago when the big guy who used to play centre for france had claimed that he was mugged in wellington. News papers around the world went nuts over it and sites like this were full of people spitting hate towards new zealand, when it turned out he was lying i didnt notice anyone giving any apologies.

    Reply
  •  tarutso
    tarutso

    As some people have already noted again and again -- challenging the haka is not the issue at all, heck, it should be promoted! The issue is infringing the rules!!!

    Reply
  •  gaetan
    gaetan

    So the nz media should be enough adult to be able to stop their harassement to french players. You won the world, what do you want more??? Let them go!!! Or maybe that's way to hide all the discussions about your captain

    Reply
  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    I've seen so many comments coming from french or french supporters that think eye gouging is justified. There are only a handful of things in life that i think harming a persons eyes is justified (like fighting for your life), a game of rugby is not one of them. Speaks volumes that so many think it's an ok thing to to. Like has been said before, Maccaw had 4 or 5 players lying directly on top of him, very hard to role out in that situation.

    Reply
  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    Stand up in the scrums unpunished? they got pinged a couple times for that very reason. The kick that Trun-Duch missed towards the end im pretty sure was for that very penalty.

    Reply
  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    Not really sure what maccaw could have done in that position, the all blacks had counter rucked and driven the french back off the ball, anyone whos ever played the game knows how difficult it is to stay on your feet when your walking over opposition players who a tring to stop you. Maccaw was on top of 3 or 4 guys and under another 3 or 4, not sure how he could have gotten out of that.

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  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    So the french players should be able to get away with abusing members of the media because they lost?

    Reply
  •  uhtiger
    uhtiger

    His refusal to acknowledge the french would more likely be from nearly having his eyes ripped out 10 minutes before the end of the game. You'd have to be some kind of saint to congratulate someone who risked your eyesight.

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  • Well said. Nothing more to say.

    Reply
  •  menial
    menial

    Yes, this was at the same ruck as the alleged/obvious eye gouging incident.

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  •  breakaway
    breakaway

    @AndreJ: "But you have to remember the All Blacks are well known for dirty play." The only example you can think of to back up this claim is an incident that happened so long ago you can't even remember who was involved. Why don't the numerous dangerous tackles, eye gouges, and other misdemeanors that have been clearly recorded by pretty much every team in international rugby in the 6 years since, make all those teams also "well known for dirty play"? Because it doesn't suit your prejudices. There is a video on this page showing a French player clearly and deliberately raking the face of another player with his fingers. This sort of evidence has resulted in long suspensions several times in recent years and such acts are universally condemned. If the video showed a NZ player doing it this site would be absolutely full of hate comment about NZ rugby and New Zealanders. Generally the response to this video, including from NZers, has been quite restrained and often sensible considering how damning it is, but there are some people even trying to say that it is a legitimate tactic.. the hypocrisy is mind-boggling.

    Reply
  •  cheyanqui
    cheyanqui

    Most French couldn't read a Kiwi paper

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  •  cheyanqui
    cheyanqui

    Most Kiwis probably couldn't read a French newspaper.

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  •  cheyanqui
    cheyanqui

    Sorry, pure coincidence. I wasn't channeling that ad, but rather a real place back in my hometown -- called "AAAACO"

    Reply
  •  tarutso
    tarutso

    Pause at 0:33. Parra already offside prior to movement forward. He moved forward, more offside where ref told him to back off. He then returned to still yet an offside position. Just look at where he is standing relative to where Dusautoir's hind feet are at. McCaw cannot roll away if the length of his arm is piled on with other players. 0:32 Mealamu did not blatantly join ruck from side -- used full arm and body was bound with teammates and opposition who were in ruck. My point is the Australian commentator is just calling out penalties left and right where in fact they were not penalties. Parra was actually offside and interferred with play - what's the problem? McCaw didn't play the ball off his feet. Hore was not offside!

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  •  apev
    apev

    the whole kneeing business surprises me. I am in no an all blacks fan, nor am i a french supporter. But, while initially watching the game, and I'm not sure when, but Dusautoir, clearly stomps (which is not a huge deal, as many players do to get clean ball) but then immediatley knee drops a new zealander (I think it was McCaw). Did anyone else see this? I don't know if anyone else noticed (nor do i wanna read all 70 comments to find out)

    Reply
  •  tarutso
    tarutso

    Your summation couldn't be less inaccurate lol.

    Reply
  •  kako
    kako

    Just read... http://www.rugbydump.com/2007/10/239/france-beat-the-all-blacks-jauzion-try Rugbydump 4LIFE! just keep doing what you do Man!!

    Reply
  •  murph
    murph

    Watch from about 2:10:00 onwards... http://www.itv.com/itvplayer/video/?Filter=283295 Half way through the interview the crowd arcs up and Desautoir is drowned out. At about 2:11:00 onward, Steve Rider notes Desautoir's dignified manner in contrast to the massive circle jerk going on in the background. I don't know if you can access ITV player, it might now be available to people outside the UK

    Reply
  •  tarutso
    tarutso

    Why would the All Blacks do the haka again after the game? Plz post video.

    Reply
  •  tarutso
    tarutso

    Just watched Irish television analysis. Just a few points as to what they're pointing out: Read vs Parra offside at 0:26 of video: Read went forward because Yachvilli engaged the ball which they admit is correct. Read did not interfere with play or move towards the ball. Whereas Parra was offside already regardless of his move forward. His move forward only made him even more offside. Look at the field lines and you can see Parra at least 1 metre ahead of teammates. Also, Parra was penalised because he was in a position that interfered with the play and moved forwards, towards the ball (Rule 11.1(a) and (b)) which forced Read to have to pass earlier. 0:59: How was McCaw playing the ball? His hands were up. 1:00: Kaino had ball while on feet. Got off feet and ball was out. Hore dived in because ball was out of ruck. Hore was clearly not offside. France simply did not dive for the ball when out in open. At 1:27 commentators say Kaino was off his feet and throwing ball forward -- what?? The only thing that I find to have any merit would have been the attempted high tackle by Woodcock.

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  • Damnit, cheyanqui! I already have to listen to that commercial five times during NFL games (the only time I watch tv live)...now you have to bring it here?!

    Reply
  •  cheyanqui
    cheyanqui

    So question to the classroom, should we simply bring back some productive rucking, to get hands and dead fish off the ball? Or are we too far gone to ever bring that back? What really gets me is how some teams (not just Kiwis) will stack dead bodies around the ball, and the defender is long gone. The referee prohibits the defense from hitting them because they offensive player is off their feet, yet the player makes no attempt to get back up and make himself an honest opponent. With all these piles of dead wood blocking the ball at rucks, we're inching closer to rugby league and then gridiron. IRB -- PLEASE bring back the contested ruck! {NFW I bet}

    Reply
  •  cheyanqui
    cheyanqui

    and for the record, I do believe the Stephen Donald kick was good. The JFK reference was simply due to the folks running tape of the kickin as if they hold the rights to the Zapruder film.

    Reply
  •  cheyanqui
    cheyanqui

    oslo was only first because he replied to Rugbydump's post in order to be first. I wonder if he owned a car parts store, if he'd name it "AAAAAAA Auto Parts" just to be first in the phone book.

    Reply
  •  cheyanqui
    cheyanqui

    yeah -- they've slowly but surely become as insufferable as New York Yankees and Dallas Cowboys fans.

    Reply
  •  unebrindille
    unebrindille

    eye socket fractured for Parra.

    Reply
  •  barryt
    barryt

    Did they actually do the haka while Dusatoir was being interviewed?? request that video cause thats appallingly bad stuff!

    Reply
  •  barryt
    barryt

    I've been following RD since the beginning, and in no way has this site ever been biased to a particular team or nation. They've been providing us with great videos and footage, that we've all loved (or hated if it was against our own team haha) all from a neutral perspective. Generally they try to start a spirited mature debate about the topic, and its we that posts the biased comments, as we would! I really can't stress enough that this is a great service RD provides and we should all be greatful My opinions of the videos: Donalds kick initially did look like it missed, but the crowds and the linesmen were certain of it straight away, so i trusted their decision, camara's can give skewed images sometimes too! I thought Joubert did give the all blacks alot of the 50/50 calls, mostly around the breakdown, to me, it appeared that he let the all blacks hold onto the ball when a french player got hands on after a tackle was made, this changed however in the second half. Thanks RD for the vid's and keep them coming!

    Reply
  •  unebrindille
    unebrindille

    Well... it so happened that that night, ruby WAS black or white.

    Reply
  •  joeythelemur
    joeythelemur

    Huh?

    Reply
  •  andrej
    andrej

    You know as much as I have never liked the Blacks, I have to admit. New Zealand has been crucial in taking Rugby to a whole new level. Its like the clash of the Titans out there. The game rarely has a dull moment on any level. I was impressed by the performance by no namers in the Rugby world like Canada and Japan in this Cup. So I do give a little respect to New Z. 4 more years seems like an eternity to wait.

    Reply
  •  andrej
    andrej

    Thats the one! Thanks!

    Reply
  •  murph
    murph

    Kick was in. McCaw was probably negligent but no less guilty of recklessness than, say, Warburton. Yet Queen Ruchie doesn't even get a reprimand. Rougerie needs to watch himself and probably lucky not to have been cited. Joubert's refereeing of the breakdown, in particular, was appallingly one-sided. He reffed Pocock out of the SF while ignoring Queen Ruckie's blatant indiscretions. Re: the 50/50 calls, Lawrence Dallaglio made the exact same point several times while calling the game for ITV UK. The haka fine is a joke. It seems that post-colonial guilt complex is well and truly entrenched at the IRB. Rugby dump is impartial. A couple of other points: Quade Cooper has an air of arrogance, yes, but the treatment dished out by the Kiwi media and the droves of Kiwi drone bogans was absolutely disgraceful. The fact that it culminated in cheers and hisses when QC busted his knee was both appalling and unsurprising given the level of hate being whipped up. Richie McCaw's and Graham Henry's victory speeches both failed to mention the French or any other team in the tournament. It smacked of a total lack of grace and complete arrogance. The decision by the ABs to perform a haka while Desutoir was being interviewed was the cherry on the icing on the cake of self-absorption. I will never support the All Blacks in any game, ever again and that includes ones involving...urgh...England. They and their fans are arrogant, ungracious winners and even sorer losers.

    Reply
  •  oslosinclair
    oslosinclair

    andrew bates... you're the problem..but you don't realise it....condemn the spear on o'driscoll if you can... you won't be able to...NZ obsession with rugby is unhealthy. McCaw didn't deserve to be eye gouged - it was cat.

    Reply
  •  menial
    menial

    Apologies for the double post, I just read JG's comment below. If the All Blacks lost to Tonga, barely beaten a 14 man Welsh team (including the nature in which they played the second half, can you really say they ), struggled for a large portion of a match against Japan, how do you think the NZ media would treat them? Granted, they may have waited until after the RWC for parochial/PR reasons, but the response would be so much worse. For real. Also, to say that the ahem, alleged eye gouging didn't occur as he wasn't cited is comical. I would say that if you truly want to wear the colours of rugby- a fifteen man style with technical excellence and passion everywhere (apart from the lineout) then you should still be in a black jersey. Hell, because of Adidas pricing, it's more than twice as affordable for you than it is for New Zealanders.

    Reply
  • ...hmmm...I understand all the frustration surrounding the match; it was a final, so people are especially critical. But the complaint against the Parra incident is one of the sillier ones to surface. Interpretations of what happened aside, if I were Parra, I'd be proud to have a couple shiners like that after the game. Wouldn't be too happy with getting benched because of it, but Trinh-Duc probably put on a better performance that Parra would have anyway. So it all worked out for the best. Maybe some of the indignation comes from the kiwi response to Quade Cooper dropping a knee on Saint McCaw... But of all the things to discuss about a rugby match, a bit of knees in the breakdown, speculating on the intentions of the players, has to be among the most trite. Fuhgeddaboudit.

    Reply
  •  andrej
    andrej

    No doubt about it Morgan Para should be Red Carded for Attacking Richie McCaws Knee. It was strange how he managed to attack others knees to the point he couldnt play anymore. Look at the photo at the begining of the article. You can see How mad he was.

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  •  andrej
    andrej

    I agree. The challenge to the Haka is what makes this sport Unique and Exciting. Even to have a Haka. But all this native rights stuff is over the top. Life is about challenges and tactics not about giving out rights and privillages to obsurd ideals.

    Reply
  •  moddeur
    moddeur

    This just in from stuff.co.nz: "I got a poke in the eye. I don't know if it was intentional, it was pretty quick," McCaw said. An intentional quick poke in the eye suggests that Rougerie was trying to rip McCaw's face off and failed (which we tend to see in the video - where he seems to go for his nose? then slips then goes for his eyes? ears?).

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  •  mbdefon
    mbdefon

    I can see nonu's not releasing the ball there.. just saying.

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  •  andrej
    andrej

    But you have to remember the All Blacks are well known for dirty play. Brian O'driscoll nearly getting his neck broken by Richie McCaw and was it Nanu? for bieng a frustratingly good player was why he was picked up and dumped on his head. I think there is long History of the Blacks bieng just that. Kind of like the Bad guys in an epic struggle. All of New Zealand loves the All Blacks but to the rest of the World they seem to me like the "Bad guys" that always win. So what is a world cup to them but just another way to boost thier already giant egos?

    Reply
  •  andrej
    andrej

    Interesting Article. I was nuetral before the game, but have to admitt I sided with France. Underdog Syndrome and it would make History for France to Win. It wasn't a very clean game. I think Rougires eye gouging doesnt help things at all. The Refing was Horrible. Maybe they should have 2 Refs in the future for the World Cup Tourney?

    Reply
  •  bunn
    bunn

    Kick is in, Parra was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's one thing to call McCaw a cheat, but another to call him dirty. As much as people dislike him, I wouldn't say he's my favourite, he only ever has eyes for the ball and I can't recall him ever being involved in any dirty play. The eye gouging doesn't look pretty, really no other explanation for it is there? I cannot be bothered to get involved in squabbling over refs calls, you could analyse every breakdown and call infringements so it's a cyclical argument. The fine was stupid, the Irb likes it's arbitrary fines now doesn't......

    Reply
  •  jackson
    jackson

    to address the impartiality of RugbyDump... i've actually been following for years and have never read or seen any kind of special treatment or favor to any one side in any league on this site and for that, i commend the site and it's editor/s. the kick? obvious. it's in. the knee? terrible and a real shame to have seen Parra off so early, but honestly... doesn't look or feel intentionally at all based on the angle and speed with which McCaw enters the ruck. the eye gouge? shameful and obvious with the right camera angel. for any player. especially during a WC final and the world watching... the fine against France for the haka? seriously? that's insulting as fan of the sport... I'm not even a French supporter, but it's AWESOME to see a team come up with their own pre-game war cry of sorts... it makes the sport unique and obviously it helped the French bring their A game and some quality rugby to my TV. good for them. get rid of that fine! the ref? good and bad calls from the ref only sway the game so much... if you think the ref may be in favor of the opposition, it's up to you to secure the game by at least a try or two and make an obvious show of it. i think he did fine. more than any one of his critics anyway, I'm sure.

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  •  bomsbomsable
    bomsbomsable

    Donalds kick is clearly over and fair play to him on it given that it appeared he'd never get a good crack at the AB's again. I think any suggestion of McCaw intentionally injuring Parra is a classic case of his reputation preceding him. By the nature of the game accidents happen in rugby, what ever the slow-mo looks like watch the incident again in real time, he's just trying to hit the ruck and Parra is unfortunate enough to be caught while making an effort to roll away. Many will remember Paul O Connell accidentally taking Brian O Driscoll out accidentally with his knee in a nations match against England in 2010....these things happen! In any case Trinh Duc was little short of immense for France when he came on and turned around the game. For me Rougerie soured his superb display by the McCaw incident. It's an offence that deserves a sanction- whether it be a gouge or not, it is clear that he makes contact with McCaws eye and this sight is full of such examples which were rightfully punished. Perhaps the IRB don't want to taint the pinnacle of the RWC but on any other occasion there would be a citing......but then again the date for citing has passed so it will be interesting to see if anything is done. France being fined for their haka response is somewhat ludicrous, if a challenge is being laid down then why can't it be accepted- we saw fiji and samoa perform theirs simultaneously so why should northern hemisphere teams be expected to stand behind the 10 metre line acting like frightened sheep? I'd concur with Matt Williams on Jouberts decisions, terrible! It'd be great to see the overall sin-binning record of countries in the RWC and see where NZ come in. Whats more it'd be very interesting see how many times McCaw has been binned as an AB! Finally anyone who thinks rugby dump is biased is simply deluded. I don't think there is any other sight which gives as good and as broad a coverage of world rugby. Keep up the good work

    Reply
  •  oslosinclair
    oslosinclair

    Kick was in. McCaw didn't knee Para. Rougerie raked. Joubert didn't ref New Zealand. French supporters should be and are entitled to be annoyed without your smarmy comments, regardless of what comments may have been posted. McCaw was a serial offender at the breakdown in the final and Joubert didn't do his duty. McCaw's refusal to acknowledge the french contribution to a fantastic final was a disgrace and shows that he now believes the hype from kiwi fans that he's untouchable. This mentality led to the Kiwis embarrassing themselves at every single game that Australia played. Fob it off as trans tasmin rivalry but they disgraced themselves.

    Reply
  •  andrewsmall
    andrewsmall

    This knee on Para is not intentional. It's practically impossible to knee someone at full speed, as you hit to clear a ruck, the Rougerie eye-gouge will probably just die, I believe it was intentional but I doubt McCaw cares - he won the World Cup. Joubert's refereeing was just what southern hemisphere refereeing is like, although, no Ref is perfect, he will have made a bad call here and there, they cannot see everything, so analyzing the whole game and picking out 5 or 6 mistakes is nonsense. I wish the refs at my level only made 5 or 6 bad calls in a game! This fine for France is nonsense as well, it didn't make any difference in the grand scheme of things, lets be honest, but a line does have to be drawn somewhere. And I agree with the comments that Rugbydump being impartial is idiotic, its been nothing but amazing all tournament. @Rodofle McCaw is one of the best players around. He may go against the laws but then find me a single 7 that doesn't. To call him a cheat and a "professional cheater" is nonsense. Eye-gouging to "stop him cheating with total impugnity" is rubbish. You are not allowed to take the law into your own hands regardless. To do so is worse than the original offence.

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  •  jumping04
    jumping04

    1) Kick was through. Plain and simple. 2) The "knee". I dunno, I do like McCaw, but in terms of a citing it depends what mode of consistency you want to follow. In my mind that was equal to the Courtney Laws knee on Roncero (or Ledesma, I can't distinguish the two sometimes), but not as bad as the Cooper knee on McCaw. Of course, Lawes was banned and Cooper wasn't... so not sure with that one. 3) Rougerie played outstanding in that match so I want to give him the benefit of the doubt but it does look like there was a raking action on McCaw's face which I find quite unfortunate. 4) I was really hoping Joubert would get things right, but you have to look at that video. Clear that there was some poor officiating done unfortunately. 5)As fettsack says, the fine is bloody stupid. I hate all this IRB hate mongering that people use, how much they insult it and claim it is pro NZ, but in this instance I do feel that they are well out of line. That was a brilliant challenge and they were a couple of feet over the line: oh no... not the halfway line. Just bothers me when a classic moment of rugby history is ruined by red tape and technicalities! 6) Rugbydump, Grant Constable and all those who work for the site: you are all legends. This is my favourite rugby site, and even though (as far as I know) you are South African, and you beat my beloved England out of a second world cup in 2007, you give some of the best rugby analysis in the world. It is impartial, intelligent, and often amusing. Ignore the haters, the maturity is awesome. Well done. Solid coverage. Thanks for providing it.

    Reply
  •  fettsack
    fettsack

    French fan talking: 1-Kick is in though I saw it out when watching live. 2-Doesn't seem intentional from McCaw. 3-I can't see much so no opinion. 4-Joubert did give 50/50 calls to NZ. 5-The fine is ridiculus General impression: NZ newspapers are worse than the french (tough to beat)

    Reply
  •  jayoflemo
    jayoflemo

    what about the ref leaving parra lying on the floor, then as soon as cruden goes down he calls the match to a halt?? roll on word cup 2015

    Reply
  •  bucklesf89
    bucklesf89

    In regards to Joubert, he did the exact opposite of Rolland. He did not step up to the plate on the day. I think he was better then Rolland in the semi final, even thought I think Warburton's red card was the right call. As Matt Williams said, it's a pity France didn't get the chance they deserved to try win it. Rugby dump being biased? Ridiculous, the reason I love this site is because the facts are laid out and we, the readers, chose how to interpret them.

    Reply
  •  rodofle
    rodofle

    MacCaw is a cheat and got what he deserved. And it wasn't an eye gouge, Rougerie just tried to grab his face in order to stop the cheat. How the hell this guy is almost never penalised, as everybody knows that he's a professional cheater? If the refs did make their job, MacCaw would be penalised and opponents wouldn't have to give him cheap shots in order to stop him cheating with total impugnity.

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  •  nathan
    nathan

    I'd normally agree with you about the SH style of reffing, but when the linked video shows that both team's doing the exact same thing yet only France get penalised you do have to wonder what the hell Joubert was thinking.

    Reply
  •  hcj
    hcj

    It would most likely be a very boring tournament without controversy of some sort. Its a difficult game to referee at the best of times and much of it is down to interpretation. Just get on with it! And if Rugbydump is biased - who to?!

    Reply
  •  nathan
    nathan

    That's not a good video for Craig Joubert! Some really bad mistakes!

    Reply
  •  moddeur
    moddeur

    The Donald kick is in, the knee looks uninentional but also lacks any form of restraint (a hardened version of Courtney Lawes' knee earlier in the tournament), the Rougerie eye-gouge allegation looks like Rougerie trys to grab MacCaw's face at any cost (nose, ear, eyes too?) to hurt him for being in the wrong place, Joubert's refereeing was not pro-NZ it was just Southern Hemisphere (let's not blow the whistle so that the game looks nicer), the fine for France is ridiculous, and allegations of Rugbydump being partial are idiotic. This is just my opinion ...

    Reply
  •  cheyanqui
    cheyanqui

    As a French fan, To all of those posting conspiracy theories about Stephen Donald's PK -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MLc0udf_74&t=3m29s "wide, and to the right. wide and to the right" The knee (actually a fist) by McCaw -- McCaw should have been cited, just so that there is a documentation of it. I don't think anything would come of it, but it would be in his record for the future. I don't see a swinging arm in the contact by the fist, so I think he gets off. The eye-gouge allegation -- looks like a raking. There was easily no justifiable rugby play to be made by Rougerie -- shameful. But these kiwi commentators calling for a head-butt first - that's rich. Haka -- a fine is utter crap. The tradition (in the way it's currently presented) is only 20+ yrs old. I can understand the IRB insisting on some modicum of respect, but at the same time, the teams should not be obligated to just stand there. Who is to say that the opposition isn't trying to start their own "tradition" in the 21st century, and their "tradition" is to stare down the Kiwis with the same vigor. Richie McCaw exempted also from Blood Bin obligations? -- didn't Richie have blood on his ear for the last 5-10 mins of the game? Why wasn't he blood binned by Joubert? Makes you wonder.

    Reply
  •  rugbydump
    rugbydump

    If you feel like discussing any of the above, please do so in a mature, sensible manner. Anything else will no longer be tolerated. Cheers

    Reply

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Richie McCaw knee on Morgan Parra, Donald kick, Rougerie eye-gouge, and more | RugbyDump